Can I change reality with my words?

[Angela53510]

People take it to the extreme. life is suffering at times. There is a season for everything. To say someone called to existence their suffering is cruel and frankly not true in a lot of cases. It can add insult to injury.

Since Kim doesn't know me, I should mention, this is why I hate Word Faith, besides it being so hermeneutically and bankrupt a doctrine. (Of course, she has me on ignore, but someone could "Reply" with Post! Or not!)

When I got severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, I had 2 Word Faith friends. They prayed over me, I was not healed. They told me I did not have enough faith. As the pain got worse, the deformities more damaging, I could not understand why they thought I did not have enough faith. I had known them for 20 years, they knew how much I believed God, and loved him. And served him. I was so broken in my body and spirit, I turned away from God. No more daily Bible reading, no more prayer and no more church for 2 years. Imagine if they had loved me and cared for me, what a different story I could tell.

Well, God had other plans. He told me to read 5 psalms a day. It took a while, but I finally picked up my Bible again. I met all these amazing people in the Psalms, with all kinds of trials and tribulations. Real people who loved God, prayed, and served him. People who suffered, just like me! I read 5 Psalms a day for 2 years. That is 24 read through the Psalms. Then, God called me to a little Baptist Church, where I met honest, loving and kind people who cared for me and ministered to me. And when I was ready, God called me to Seminary, at the same time I finally got on good meds, and got my life back for 10 years. I graduated with honours, but more important, I found my ministry - to the hurting and broken. Especially Christians who didn't get better, when Word Faith people prayed for them. I did chaplain work in long term care, and I was put in charge of some side Christian forums. I was able to do a lot of teaching there, although God moved me away from that.

Now, I have had many med failures, a car accident, and I am very disabled. Just typing kills me, let alone walking. But, I am working on a PhD to intiate some programs, incentives at the academic and grass roots level, to help these hurting people. So hard on me I want to give up, but I am learning so much.

As for the Word Faith people who prayed for me? One got breast cancer, and refused treatment because
God had healed her. She died a year later, when the cancer metastized to her brain, making her go insane. the other friend almost died of an enlarged prostate, but a non Word Faith friend found him on the floor of his house, got an ambulance, and he was operated on. He is healthy today at age 88, serving God in his own way. But, he never misses his yearly check ups with his neurologist, and says, "God uses doctors."

Too much evil coming out of word faith. Too many people deceived, and uneducated charlatans spreading their gospel of hate. It was totally hateful for people to tell me I deserved to be ill and suffering, and I had no faith. I forgave them, the one who is alive may come and live with us, soon. He doesn't have enough money to rent a place, and just got evicted from where he has been living for quite a few years for "renovations." I guess that is not prosperity?

 

[Kim82]

I wouldn't even add that last sentence. It would be akin to sowing doubt. I just obey scripture and anoint the sick with sanctified olive oil and pray for their healing. The word says He will bring it.

It's just that, not everyone sick is healed, and some also die from their illness.

I've used the "if it be your will" in my prayers when I'm not sure what to ask for.

I also pray He puts His words into our mouths and back them up with signs and wonders. Won't you join me in this prayer?

Especially the signs and wonders of the fruits of the spirit, because we are Gods peculiar people. Amen.

 

[Guojing]

Since Kim doesn't know me, I should mention, this is why I hate Word Faith, besides it being so hermeneutically and bankrupt a doctrine. (Of course, she has me on ignore, but someone could "Reply" with Post! Or not!)

When I got severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, I had 2 Word Faith friends. They prayed over me, I was not healed. They told me I did not have enough faith. As the pain got worse, the deformities more damaging, I could not understand why they thought I did not have enough faith.

Sorry to hear that. Curious though, how did you know you were not healed after they prayed? Is it just because you could not see the healing manifested in the physical realm? How about salvation when you prayed to receive Jesus, how did you know you were saved then?

There are some immature people out there in every group for sure. They should not have used the "not enough faith" point, maybe they were taught wrongly. We are to see healing as a "finished work". God healed you 2000 years ago when Jesus took the stripes. It is a reality in the spiritual world.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Since Kim doesn't know me, I should mention, this is why I hate Word Faith, besides it being so hermeneutically and bankrupt a doctrine. (Of course, she has me on ignore, but someone could "Reply" with Post! Or not!)

When I got severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, I had 2 Word Faith friends. They prayed over me, I was not healed. They told me I did not have enough faith. As the pain got worse, the deformities more damaging, I could not understand why they thought I did not have enough faith. I had known them for 20 years, they knew how much I believed God, and loved him. And served him. I was so broken in my body and spirit, I turned away from God. No more daily Bible reading, no more prayer and no more church for 2 years. Imagine if they had loved me and cared for me, what a different story I could tell.

Well, God had other plans. He told me to read 5 psalms a day. It took a while, but I finally picked up my Bible again. I met all these amazing people in the Psalms, with all kinds of trials and tribulations. Real people who loved God, prayed, and served him. People who suffered, just like me! I read 5 Psalms a day for 2 years. That is 24 read through the Psalms. Then, God called me to a little Baptist Church, where I met honest, loving and kind people who cared for me and ministered to me. And when I was ready, God called me to Seminary, at the same time I finally got on good meds, and got my life back for 10 years. I graduated with honours, but more important, I found my ministry - to the hurting and broken. Especially Christians who didn't get better, when Word Faith people prayed for them. I did chaplain work in long term care, and I was put in charge of some side Christian forums. I was able to do a lot of teaching there, although God moved me away from that.

Now, I have had many med failures, a car accident, and I am very disabled. Just typing kills me, let alone walking. But, I am working on a PhD to intiate some programs, incentives at the academic and grass roots level, to help these hurting people. So hard on me I want to give up, but I am learning so much.

As for the Word Faith people who prayed for me? One got breast cancer, and refused treatment because
God had healed her. She died a year later, when the cancer metastized to her brain, making her go insane. the other friend almost died of an enlarged prostate, but a non Word Faith friend found him on the floor of his house, got an ambulance, and he was operated on. He is healthy today at age 88, serving God in his own way. But, he never misses his yearly check ups with his neurologist, and says, "God uses doctors."

Too much evil coming out of word faith. Too many people deceived, and uneducated charlatans spreading their gospel of hate. It was totally hateful for people to tell me I deserved to be ill and suffering, and I had no faith. I forgave them, the one who is alive may come and live with us, soon. He doesn't have enough money to rent a place, and just got evicted from where he has been living for quite a few years for "renovations." I guess that is not prosperity?

Angela,

I honestly appreciate your post...and other of your posts. And I've been somewhat watching this thread in the last day or so. I don't claim to have read it completely, and I won't claim to answer all aspects of the topic, as there are many.

Please allow me to say this though... Not everything those preachers/teachers say is wrong. (Even though your friends might have done some things that were quite wrong.)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Angela53510]

Sorry to hear that. Curious though, how did you know you were not healed after they prayed? Is it just because you could not see the healing manifested in the physical realm? How about salvation when you prayed to receive Jesus, how did you know you were saved then?

There are some immature people out there in every group for sure. They should not have used the "not enough faith" point, maybe they were taught wrongly. We are to see healing as a "finished work". God healed you 2000 years ago when Jesus took the stripes. It is a reality in the spiritual world.

They prayed for me 20 years ago. I also prayed and believed. How did I know I wasn't healed? Try hot red flares in over 100 joints, increasing deformities, and excruciating pain? No, I was not healed in my body, but over time, God used my suffering to heal my tortured soul. And so many expensive, dangerous drugs I took, and now have completely damaged hands a feet.

I do not believe in decisional regeneration. There was no sinner's prayer, when God saved me. Instead, he stopped me dead in my tracks and told me I would serve him, and quit drinking. I do believe stopping drinking was a salvation miracle. But totally from and of God. He said it, it happened! I did not speak, claim, or command God. It was all about him! All about his gracious and loving mercy and grace.

I wouldn't call my friend Nydia "immature." She had walked with God a long time. She got pulled into Word Faith and became an ordained pastor with Kenneth Copeland Ministries. She had the gift of evangelism. She had travelled the world with her husband leading many to God. In her community, she did the same, and starting a church, there were so many people getting saved. She also had 3 degrees, including a PhD. Not dumb, not immature, but so deluded! And, she certainly lacked compassion, saying that to me. Although, I know she wanted me to be healed. The other man, now 88 is a bit childlike. Serving God since he 1960s with a passion for the lost. He also had some other, unrelated bad doctrine, which affected his understanding of the sovereignty of God.

As for Isa. 53:5d? I exegeted that verse. As in the whole verse, in context. No, this fundamental verse does not say that Jesus healed our bodies by his stripes. I'll post what I wrote tomorrow . Or, read all of Isaiah. The book is completely about a sinful people needing to repent. Not individual healing 2600 years after Isaiah wrote that to the Jews, who had gone wickedly astray. Keep sin and repentance in your head, when you read it, and you will see what the book is about.

Good hermeneutics always requires any doctrine be found in more than 1/4 of a verse. Take the doctrine of the cross! You can find it all over the NT, and someplaces in the OT. Oh, and don't confuse Jesus healing, and us being made into "little gods" with the ability to speak things into existence, like Jesus did. Little gods is a terrible, gnostic heresy making the rounds.

I appreciate your kindness, and I hope we can talk more about the Biblical proofs for and against this false doctrine.

 

[Guojing]

They prayed for me 20 years ago. I also prayed and believed. How did I know I wasn't healed? Try hot red flares in over 100 joints, increasing deformities, and excruciating pain? No, I was not healed in my body, but over time, God used my suffering to heal my tortured soul. And so many expensive, dangerous drugs I took, and now have completely damaged hands a feet.

As for Isa. 53:5d? I exegeted that verse. As in the whole verse, in context. No, this fundamental verse does not say that Jesus healed our bodies by his stripes. I'll post what I wrote tomorrow . Or, read all of Isaiah. The book is completely about a sinful people needing to repent. Not individual healing 2600 years after Isaiah wrote that to the Jews, who had gone wickedly astray. Keep sin and repentance in your head, when you read it, and you will see what the book is about.

I appreciate your kindness, and I hope we can talk more about the Biblical proofs for and against this false doctrine.

I certainly hope you don't mean the belief "God always wants us well" is a false doctrine. I have met a few who hold on to that, most of them is because they have either prayed for others in the past, but the person died, or they themselves were trusting God to be healed, but they could not see it with their physical eyes. For these people, they often regard Isa 53 as "spiritual healing", meaning healing from sins, and not infirmities nor physical sicknesses. Is that where you are coming from?

Actually, I believe many of us who believe that God hates sickness with the same intensity as he hates sin, when we pray for others or ourselves, have seen people died or even got worse after we prayed. But we continue to renew our minds in this truth daily, as I have said, many years of wrong doctrine need more time to be erased.

But yes, I will be very happy to discuss with people with different perspectives about this issue, as I don't think I have all the answers as of now.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

If I want a car can I go to the dealership, place my hand on a car and say, I'm declaring that this car will be mine's RIGHT NOW!

The bible says:

there is power and life in the tongue.

If I tell the mountain to be cast in the sea, it will happen.

When the children of Israel were going through the wilderness, God came near their tents and heard them saying Moses took them in the wilderness to die. God said it will be done just as they have said. And only their children will see the promised land.

How do you guys feel on this matter?

No your words alone hold no power.

Only if you speak God's words does the world change.

James 4
2You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. 4You adulterous people!c Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?

 

[AgapeShellArt]

No.

Thats word of faith garbage, dont buy into that! These guys out here walking around claiming to be god (small g tho, thats how humble they are).

Most common offenders: Joyce Meyer, Creflo dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn ........ and that bunch of heretics. <- If you heard it from them or their minions. Dont believe it! If you are just wondering sincerely about those verses, well with the MOUTH confession is made unto salvation. So thats the most important thing! The words we speak do MATTER, but we dont have POWER like GOD to do as we please.

Only God can create with words. ex-nihilo. Out of nothing.

The only creating that works is a word of faith pastor declaring with faith "I will take the money from these gullible folks in the pews".
^That we see happening all over the globe, while the folks giviing the private jets REMAIN poor. Oy vey!

Definately run from this movement, part of the last days deception. I dont believe for a second that most of these word of faith preachers are saved.

If you want a new car you ask God to give you one.

Even if you asked God to give you one. He won't because it's desiring things of this world and not His kingdom or will.

Cars are not needed for salvation of the souls of men.

 

[AgapeShellArt]

how many movements are there geees.

As many fallen angels that were cast from heaven... A third of the stars that were in the sky.

 

[wolfwint]

We have to remember that the Apostles were operating during a faith movement (Elijah) when these miracles happened. We are entering another Elijah movement right before Christ comes back again. Below is an excerpt that the Holy Spirit gave me some years ago to preach. It is from my notes.

What can hinder our faith works? Mark 11:22-24: “And Jesus answering saith unto them, have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, what things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” This doubt is a bigger thing, in Christian lives, than is acknowledged.

Our testimony can be part of our faith works. Revelation 12:10,11: “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” We can overcome the enemy by our testimony. The Greek word for testimony is marturia (phonetically mar-too-ree’-ah) which can mean witness.

It is not a word of testimony or witness, until we put it into our mouths. What is involved in overcoming Satan with our word? John 14:12-14: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” Powerful words those. We do the same things our Lord did. /End of excerpt.

We may still see some of these things come to pass. Clearly, the word says we can do more than we are doing right now. If we convince ourselves it can't happen, it won't happen wi4th us. I want to be a part of the next faith movement along with the two witnesses. Maybe even be one.

What have the apostles to do with Elijah?
Since Jesus came we walking in faith.
But this has nothing to do, with the teaching today which Kim 82 mentioned.
In opposit to God we can not speak things into reality. And I also cant find this praxis written for the church.
But we should trust in Gods word, that that what he has promissed to us ore for the future will come true.
I read in Matthew that at the endtime this time is influenced from great sign and wonders, but not from God, but from Satan. And that Satan will lead astray believers through this.
The time you mentioned, I expect to be already with the Lord. Well, we will see who is right.
If it would be right, that we should speak things into reality, then show me the newspapers and TV and Internet which are reporting about it.
They must be full of it.

 

[Deade]

What have the apostles to do with Elijah?
Since Jesus came we walking in faith.

You are saying Christendom has not strayed from the faith. I disagree, respectively.

But this has nothing to do, with the teaching today which Kim 82 mentioned.
In opposit to God we can not speak things into reality. And I also cant find this praxis written for the church.
But we should trust in Gods word, that that what he has promissed to us ore for the future will come true.

You are saying this is not true? John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

I read in Matthew that at the endtime this time is influenced from great sign and wonders, but not from God, but from Satan. And that Satan will lead astray believers through this.

You failed to consider the two witnesses. That makes your whole statement false.

The time you mentioned, I expect to be already with the Lord. Well, we will see who is right.

I am sorry for you. What will you do when the Tribulation starts and you are not zapped out of here yet? My Bible says the saints are still dying during the tribulation.

If it would be right, that we should speak things into reality, then show me the newspapers and TV and Internet which are reporting about it. They must be full of it.

I doubt very much the media knows what goes on in one's prayer closet. So, this whole statement is hogswallow.

 

[wolfwint]

You are saying Christendom has not strayed from the faith. I disagree, respectively.

You are saying this is not true? John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

You failed to consider the two witnesses. That makes your whole statement false.

I am sorry for you. What will you do when the Tribulation starts and you are not zapped out of here yet? My Bible says the saints are still dying during the tribulation.

I doubt very much the media knows what goes on in one's prayer closet. So, this whole statement is hogswallow.

One bible school teacher told us, that it is not usefull to argue about future events. It will come as the Lord days.
Who then is right, we will see.
If your are talking about things into reality. In the bible i found signs and miracles always in conecting as an wittness for the sorrroundig people abouts Gods greatness and might.
What sense it makes to perform miracles and nobody knows?

 

[wolfwint]

T

You are saying Christendom has not strayed from the faith. I disagree, respectively.

You are saying this is not true? John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

You failed to consider the two witnesses. That makes your whole statement false.

I am sorry for you. What will you do when the Tribulation starts and you are not zapped out of here yet? My Bible says the saints are still dying during the tribulation.

I doubt very much the media knows what goes on in one's prayer closet. So, this whole statement is hogswallow.

If john 14,13 is for us, then your expierience should be that you got everything from God what you asked for. Then you are a great witness for the place where you are living.
If so, praise the Lord!

 

[wolfwint]

W

You are saying Christendom has not strayed from the faith. I disagree, respectively.

You are saying this is not true? John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

You failed to consider the two witnesses. That makes your whole statement false.

I am sorry for you. What will you do when the Tribulation starts and you are not zapped out of here yet? My Bible says the saints are still dying during the tribulation.

I doubt very much the media knows what goes on in one's prayer closet. So, this whole statement is hogswallow.

Where i have said something about christendom?

 

[Lanolin]

If preacher needed said car for ministry then ok.
But if preacher just wanted to show off a new car then no,

Eg Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. He kind of said grab that one, and it was his to ride. I dont know if he kept it though. He probably didnt have to pay for it.

 

[Bingo]

(Know this and know it well.) A parable, or an allegory story
designed to illustrate or teach a moral lesson...to convey a
meaning indirectly by use of comparison.)
"Ponder these words carefully."........The Divine words tell
us precisely...what you see is not what is meant...'They look
and look, but do not see.'
This is a truth that has confused and bewildered the wisest.
'Praise God'

 

[Angela53510]

If preacher needed said car for ministry then ok.
But if preacher just wanted to show off a new car then no,

Eg Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. He kind of said grab that one, and it was his to ride. I dont know if he kept it though. He probably didnt have to pay for it.

This is so North American centric! Go to China or India. Evangelists there just walk, just as the apostles did. Sometimes, you can buy a bicycle for them, but mostly, they have nothing but their feet and their passion for God.

No one needs a car. Do you know why? Because, first it is an older beater. Then, it's not reliable or has too many expensive repairs. So, then a new or almost new car, but plain! And fairly cheap! But that is not comfortable to drive in, a lot. So, a more expensive car? Then a small airplane? Then a big jet?

If you don't believe me, look at all these charlatan tele-evangelists, and their pleas for a jet "to do the Lord's work." Greed begets greed. If God shows up with a car, then take it. We have given away cars to needy people, because God told us to. Not because someone named and claimed it. (This was in the days long before the Word Faith doctrine was well known outside of some circles.)

The whole claiming things, material things, is based on greed. I could recite so many people who got caught in this trap. And God had a way of breaking that delusion, by making them poor.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Once again, why are you here? Why aren't you going to every hospital you can and "declare" all in them to be healed?

I've seen people healed and I have seen people not healed

do you have a problem with God healing someone?

not everyone who believes God still heals is word of faith

let's see...I speak/pray/sing in tongues, I do pray for people to be healed because I am a Christian and I believe God heals but that is up to Him. I believe words are important...and the Bible confirms it...I don't mock what I don't understand and I pray for wisdom, discernment and always protection because the devil is like a roaring lion seeking for someone to gobble up

the problem with so many of you folks here, is that you do not seem able to believe what the Bible actually DOES say while so intent on going on and on and on with what it does not say.

the actual WOF nonsense is not backed up by scripture, but it seems there is a whole world that people trash because they seem to see it all that way

I have heard and read this 'why don't you go into the hospital and pray for people' as the default mocking statement from far too many people and I have to ask...why don't YOU and some Christian friends go into the hospitals and tell people about Jesus? even if you do not believe God still can heal anyone, surely you believe He still saves?

and again because people seem to have a comprehension problem. the Bible does say to pray for the sick...let the elders pray etc, but there are no admonishments keeping anyone from praying anywhere they are really...

and for the record, I'm not WOF, Pentecostal nor am I Charismatic.

even cessationists can surely find some way to be a blessing ?

 

[KnowMe]

If preacher needed said car for ministry then ok.
But if preacher just wanted to show off a new car then no,

Eg Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. He kind of said grab that one, and it was his to ride. I dont know if he kept it though. He probably didnt have to pay for it.

Actually they were loaners and returned them to their owners.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Oh, please. The claim is all one has to do is "declare" something for it to be so. Saying one's "words" makes it a reality. Either for possessions, money, or even healing. Read Kim's posts. I'm taking it to it's logical conclusion.

And your excuse is the same one faith healers use when the person they "declare" healing for does not get healed.

"Well, it looks like you just didn't have enough faith!"

It sure would be nice to have medical verification of anyone actually healed by say, Benny Hinn, or any one of the other hucksters

I'm not saying God does not heal, but this "claim" or "declare" it nonsense is sickening.

well, the op is not saying that, I am not saying that either

I have never said to anyone they do not have enough faith

Uh huh. How about answering the question?

I hope you would consider going into hospitals to tell people about Jesus and maybe even pray the Lord would touch them physically as well

I have done that, and sung to people and gone into old folks homes etc. these people need Jesus and it is a blessing all the way around to share Jesus