Speaking in tongues

[yellowcanary]

Even the speak is forbidden huh?

Not if it's substantiated ... as it was during the apostolic era. Otherwise, we make a mockery of the gospel of Christ and the power of God to those who are lost.

 

[garee]

So I guess when Jesus healed the lepers, there was nothing observable about it. When He healed the blind, there was nothing observable about it. When the lame man jumped up and danced about after Peter and John spoke to him, there was nothing observable about it. When Eutychus was brought back from the dead, nothing visible to the human eye. Lazarus, the widow's son, Peter's mother-in-law, etc., nope, couldn't be seen. Nothing at all happening here, folks, move along, move along....

smh... "i don't believe" sums it up well...

Actually all you mentioned were observable as signs that followed (not lead) after one hears the gospel and believe God . The signs are not the source of believing, Prophecy alone is. Some seek after a sign hoping it would confirm a blessing that they perform for self edification. . The faithless Jews performed that . Show us a miracle and then we will believe.

A good example is shown with John who had doubts of whether or not it was Jesus who would bring the good news.? Jesus used many metaphors that had to do with hearing the gospel and believing God not seen .

The spiritual blind "see", those who are lame and cannot walk by faith are given a heart to believe God "walking by that not seen". The lepers that have no sensitivity to the work of the gospel are given the "gift of sensitivity to the Holy Spirit not seen". Those who had no ears to hear the word of God are given "ears to hear the gospel" .Those dead in their trespasses and sin are given a hope they will "receive a new body on the last day when their new spirits are raised" . Those spiritually bankrupt will be given the riches of Christ. In other words the gospel is preached

John believed the gospel .


Luke 7:22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have "seen and heard"; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

 

[cv5]

@CS1 (post #4,259) –

Essentially, you’re saying what a lot of people tell me – namely, that I’m trying to explain/understand something ‘supernatural’ in non-supernatural/human terms; trying to understand the ‘spiritual’ in ‘carnal’ terms.

If you’re doing something and I can show you exactly what you’re doing, how you’re doing it, and the entire process behind what you’re doing can all be explained in relatively simple terms, is it something supernatural, or just something natural being used in a supernatural (religious) context?

As the old saying goes, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks likes a duck……

The gift of languages is the ability to easily and quickly learn languages in order to spread the word of God to different nations and peoples (an oversimplification – see some of my posts above in this thread for further detail). In short, when this ability is used to further the glory of God, it can be termed a “spiritual gift”.

When Paul’s letter was written, he wasn’t addressing it to modern day Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians; he was addressing it to a church in a major seaport city rife with cultural and linguistic diversity, where everyday communication could be challenging at best. There just isn’t anything in Paul’s letter (or any other place ‘tongues’ are referenced) that does not describe real, rational; language(s) situations.

Can anyone have the God-given ability to learn languages quickly? Yup. But, as mentioned above, when said gift/ability is used to further the glory of God, that gift can be said to be ‘spiritual’. I might suggest that this is why “tongues” (read ‘languages’) is regarded as the least of the gifts Paul mentions. Considering he mentions gifts in three different places and the list is not quite the same in all three, this seems to suggest that just about any God-given gift/ability/talent, call it what you will, can be considered a “spiritual gift” if used in a ‘spiritual manner’ (using it for the further glory of God).

Why don’t people have similar explanations for the other gifts – I would have to argue that it’s because there is no ambiguity as to what they are. “Tongues” on the other hand, seem to be something grossly misunderstood, problematic, in most cases taken completely out of context, and in modern times, completely redefined to fit a very modern experience by a particular group of Christians.

Mind you, I’m completely differentiating “tongues” here from the “tongues experience” – they are two different things entirely. ‘Tongues’ as the tool they are (as described in some of my earlier posts) are a very powerful tool which can produce some pretty miraculous results (the "tongues experience"). But the tool itself, i.e. the “tongues” produced, is entirely self-created.

To reiterate what I’ve said in previous posts – the fact that what people are doing today is not to be found in the Biblical narratives does not in any way make it somehow wrong; but what you’re doing today is not at all what Paul is talking about, nor is it anything to be found in the Biblical narratives.

Yeah, translate/interpret - a bit of syntactical splitting of hairs. When something is written, it’s typically said to be “translated”, when spoken, it’s “interpreted”. In theory the same thing, but ‘interpretation’ opens itself to some leeway on the part of the interpreter; it’s not always as literal as a 'translation'.

The interpretation of tongues may also be said to be a self-created phenomenon. Interpretation is ‘spiritual improv’ of sorts, inspired by one’s deep faith and beliefs.

There is absolutely nothing that correlates a glossic utterance with an interpretation.

Why is that? Interpretations are characterized by typically being inordinately longer than the actual glossic utterance (e.g. a 30 second utterance equating to twenty minutes of interpretation), rather generic and non-specific in nature, and perhaps not surprisingly, open to multiple non-related ‘interpretations’. In other words, have ten interpreters listen to a glossic string and you’ll get ten different (typically unrelated) “interpretations”. In short, when it comes to “tongues”, ‘The big brown dog is slow’, can also be interpreted as ‘The small white cat is quick’. These latter two characteristics do not suggest anything that is divinely inspired. It fails even the most basic tests and criteria that define ‘communication’ itself.

The common come-back to the multiple interpretation issue is that God/the Holy Spirit gives different interpretations to different people. As someone once put it, “Pentecostal Darwinism does not exist – there’s no mutation or transformation of one message into several for the sake of justifying an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case, it would completely eradicate the need for ‘tongues’ in the first place.”

As I’ve mentioned I am neither a so-called cessationist or continuationist; I don’t identify with either term. Since Biblical tongues refer to real, rational language, and since people still speak, and many still have the ability to learn languages incredibly fast, ‘tongues’ (read 'languages') have not ceased.

A few quick asides, and to some of your points –
There is no such thing as “fake tongues” or “demonic tongues” – they are all produced in the exact same way. What would make you think they are somehow demonic? Is it the sounds that the glossic string contains? Tone, pitch – what? To use an analogy, is it because it sounds more like Tolkien’s “Black Speech” than his “Sindarin/Quenya Elvish” (i.e. it just “sounds evil”; God wouldn’t talk like that!)?

As far as ‘fake’ goes, what is there to fake? Random free vocalization is random free vocalization. That said, I actually do differentiate between “fake” and “real” glossolalia – ‘faking it’, for me, would mean that it’s something that looks and sounds like it’s being produced using an obvious conscious effort (kind of like watching and listening to someone speaking a fluent Pig Latin – you can almost see them transforming the words right before they say them), while ‘not faking it’, to me, would mean that the speaker is producing it on a subconscious level; just letting the sounds flow as they come. Virtually no effort involved.

BTW – speaking for myself, there’s no intellectual desire to ‘know all’; there is however, a curiosity in studying and understanding an interesting, very tangible, linguistic phenomenon which also just happens to lend itself rather well to study.

Using Scripturam ex Scriptura exclusively, to put it somewhat bluntly, is a concept that is severely limiting, enforces a type of strict (religious) control over people, and tends to keep them from daring to think too far out of the box. The concept is fine, so long as it’s used in conjunction with allowing people to think and question. For some groups of Christians, however, not exclusively adhering to Scripturam ex Scriptura seems to be somewhat frowned upon.

"There just isn’t anything in Paul’s letter (or any other place ‘tongues’ are referenced) that does not describe real, rational; language(s) situations."

No argument on that point.

 

[cv5]

Cessationists are taught. They have their "starting place" there.
Other cessationists taught them cessationism.
IOW,because their experience is "JESUS QUIT" they have no need or responsibility,or hunger for more.
In their starting place they align the word ABOVE the spirit.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are limited to the cessationists knowledge.
That is WHY they are paranoid of the gifts.
They can muster a tiny bit of spirit in salvation. But teachers teach them Jesus just saves to position for salvation. They don't need or want the spirit realm. No hunger.
From that platform they reason God wants certain people sick,and since ther leaders don't believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit it must have somehow ceased.

I can not imagine operating without the gifts. I am so thankful i have none of that cessationism to unlearn.

I'm no cessationist. But I have yet to intersect legitimate sign gifts. In my 57 years. So as far as I can tell it is an exceedingly rare phenomenon. And certainly not operative in the scope and magnitude described during the formative years of the Church.

 

[garee]

Mark 9: (ESV)
21 And Jesus asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood.
22 And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you [Jesus] can do anything, have compassion on us
and help us.”
23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

All things are possible for one who believes sign... as if they lead and not followed believing God .” Sounds like a evil generation they seek after signs hoping to confirm something that they performed as a way of "self edification"

I don't think Jesus puts his approval on those who seek after signs .

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

No such thing as a sign gift . We walk by faith the unseen eternal.

Don't fear looking for the spiritual understanding hid in parables as searching for silver and gold . He will guide us. If we go astray he will bring us to help understand the parables hid from natural man .Its why we are instructed to search for the unseen spiritual understanding to the same or faith to faith

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corhithian 4:18

 

[cv5]

@Absolutely, your zeal for God and faith in His miracles is very refreshing! Because you believe, you will see them. Those that do not believe, will not see them and explain them away as fake.

No worries. God knows those that are His, shake the dust off and leave the town. Perhaps God will send someone else at another time, when hearts are full of faith and able to receive.

There are times when even Jesus could not perform great miracles because of unbelief. Be encouraged. You did well to share with us your faith in God and His work in us. Peace.

"Those that do not believe, will not see them and explain them away as fake."

Not precisely true. The Sanhedrin knew perfectly well that Jesus' signs were real. They did see them, they were not hidden to them. They denied the authority and person of Christ that much is true. But the sign gifts were quite unmistakeable and acknowledged by all.

Accordingly, legitimate sign gifts today would also be quite beyond refutation. Though they could be despised, ignored or rejected for any number of reasons.

 

[Dino246]

Some seek after a sign hoping it would confirm a blessing that they perform for self edification.

Who are these "some"? Please quote them.

 

[Waggles]

I'm no cessationist. But I have yet to intersect legitimate sign gifts. In my 57 years. So as far as I can tell it is an exceedingly rare phenomenon. And certainly not operative in the scope and magnitude described during the formative years of the Church.

You need to get out more … the world is full of Holy Spirit revival with baptisms in water and the Spirit along with miracles,
healings, and of course people speaking in tongues.
These are the last of the last days and God is indeed pouring out his Spirit upon all flesh (first the gentiles, and then on the last
day the Jews).

 

[KelbyofGod]

I wonder if those words were spoken to Jesus when he went to his home town

Absolute,

They just used slightly different wording...and then wanted to kill him as soon as he suggested that it is a CORRECT thing for limited outpourings (that likely wouldn't come near their doorstep).

Luke 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
Luke 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luke 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
Luke 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Luke 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luke 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Absolutely]

Not if it's substantiated ... as it was during the apostolic era. Otherwise, we make a mockery of the gospel of Christ and the power of God to those who are lost.

Yes sir
I agree
Thak God he still does

 

[Absolutely]

Absolute,

They just used slightly different wording...and then wanted to kill him as soon as he suggested that it is a CORRECT thing for limited outpourings (that likely wouldn't come near their doorstep).

Luke 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
Luke 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luke 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
Luke 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Luke 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luke 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Yep.
Nothing changes.
Jesus's power invokes wrath then and now.

Many are certain all his power mysteriosly drained out.
They have faith in that.
They believe it.
It's not true,but how dare anyone read the bible ,and see for a fact there is no substance to their belief.
None
Zero

 

[Absolutely]

"Those that do not believe, will not see them and explain them away as fake."

Not precisely true. The Sanhedrin knew perfectly well that Jesus' signs were real. They did see them, they were not hidden to them. They denied the authority and person of Christ that much is true. But the sign gifts were quite unmistakeable and acknowledged by all.

Accordingly, legitimate sign gifts today would also be quite beyond refutation. Though they could be despised, ignored or rejected for any number of reasons.

I think for the most part they were hidden from them.
Thats why several were asked to testify against him and the healings. They didn't see those miracles

 

[Absolutely]

I'm no cessationist. But I have yet to intersect legitimate sign gifts. In my 57 years. So as far as I can tell it is an exceedingly rare phenomenon. And certainly not operative in the scope and magnitude described during the formative years of the Church.

It is hand in hand.
We also see very few willing to dare to step out. Very few with the anointing burning inside them.
Those are the ones that see them.
Not those hoping to witness them 3rd hand.

It is not hard to find God moving in miracles.

 

[yellowcanary]

Absolute,

They just used slightly different wording...and then wanted to kill him as soon as he suggested that it is a CORRECT thing for limited outpourings (that likely wouldn't come near their doorstep).

Luke 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
Luke 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luke 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
Luke 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Luke 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luke 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

All of which had nothing to do with tongues and the fulfilled prophecy of Joel as verified by Peter in Acts ..i.e... this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

 

[yellowcanary]

Jesus's power invokes wrath then and now.
Many are certain all his power mysteriously drained out.

Who thinks this ? The modern tongues naysayers ? An absurd declaration to be sure.

 

[Sketch]

What are you doing wasting your time on this thread ? Get yourself to the hospitals and heal the sick.

Even Jesus couldn't heal the sick as a matter of his own free will.
We need to watch for what God is doing and partner with Him.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

 

[KelbyofGod]

All of which had nothing to do with tongues and the fulfilled prophecy of Joel as verified by Peter in Acts ..i.e... this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

Yellowcanary,
Which part are you saying had nothing to do with that prophecy? Tongues definitely has part of that prophecy by Joel... and so does the stuff like healings, etc because they are all part of the gifts promised with the outpouring(baptism) of the Holy Ghost...and the words (of Jesus that I quoted) are being spoken by the guy doing the outpouring(baptism)... Jesus.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[garee]

Who are these "some"? Please quote them.

Everyone that wants tongues to be more that just prophecy the word of God .and therefore desiring to add their own oral tradition adding to the meaning. They need more than what they are offered ……. believe it as he gives us His faith to make it possible .Again they need more .

They would seek after the show and tell as if there were sign gifts. All die not receiving the end of the promise .Our new incorruptible bodies its the fruit of our living hope keeping us moving forward. If God has begun the good work in us we have his confidence he will finish it. No needs for signs and wonders that follow and not lead .

Who are some? Everyone that turns the law and foundation of the doctrine of tongues upside down deceiving themselves to believe the sign of making a noise confirms they are being filled with the Spirit rather than what the sign does confirm . Its the other way around confirming those who will not hear the word of God in any language. No faith .No belief in a God not seen who makes himself know through prophecy . Is that enough?

two groups of people

(1) those who do believe in a God not seen through prophecy, the word of God

(2) the other group of people those who do not believe in God not seen (atheist) denying prophecy

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corithian14:21-22

The believer of prophecy does not need a sign they simply believe .

 

[Dino246]

Everyone that wants tongues to be more that just prophecy the word of God .and therefore desiring to add their own oral tradition adding to the meaning. They need more than what they are offered ……. believe it as he gives us His faith to make it possible .Again they need more .

They would seek after the show and tell as if there were sign gifts. All die not receiving the end of the promise .Our new incorruptible bodies its the fruit of our living hope keeping us moving forward. If God has begun the good work in us we have his confidence he will finish it. No needs for signs and wonders that follow and not lead .

Who are some? Everyone that turns the law and foundation of the doctrine of tongues upside down deceiving themselves to believe the sign of making a noise confirms they are being filled with the Spirit rather than what the sign does confirm . Its the other way around confirming those who will not hear the word of God in any language. No faith .No belief in a God not seen who makes himself know through prophecy . Is that enough?

two groups of people

(1) those who do believe in a God not seen through prophecy, the word of God

(2) the other group of people those who do not believe in God not seen (atheist) denying prophecy

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corithian14:21-22

The believer of prophecy does not need a sign they simply believe .

So QUOTE them. Don't just paraphrase what you think they claim. Quote what they actually write, and respond to that.

Otherwise it's just tilting at the wind.

 

[Lanolin]

Some people who do not yet have much faith actually do need a supernatural sign that God is working. I would not begrudge them this miracle.
For example Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes for the hungry crowd. He asked his dsiciples if they could buy them lunch first but they had no money. What would bring more glory to God...that his disciples put on lunch for 5000 with their own money and resources or if they asked God for a miracle?

After that miracle many more believed in Him. yes He may have got people that were only hanging round Jesus for a feed. But it was really do show his doubting disicples that all things are possible with God.

A similar situation happens with tongues. Interestingly it was 5000 people added to the church that day of Pentecost, the same number who ate the loaves and fishes.