Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

[Matthew55]

There's a word for your kind, and that word is "Judaizer."

Look it up.

"Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:28-29)

That's it and that's all.

Sorry, if that's it and that's all, then there would be only 1 sentence in the Bible. Simple.

But there are 27 books, and 180,552 words depending on the 1 of 100+ versions of the Bible you choose to read. So apparently it is not as simple as you want to make it. And besides, the word believe is far deeper than you want to believe too. When Jesus refers to believe, he means you are all in, and you are doing what he commands us to do. One of those commandments being to believe. Or are you like others on this thread that are pretty much ignoring or discounting the words of Jesus, some even to the point of saying they are not necessary and the 4 gospels should not be read because they confuse the matter.

Wow, I never saw this day coming.

 

[Guojing]

Sure it is free ...what does that have to do with the point? You can't spin it...ok?
G-d sets standards. We must comply.

If you choose to offer something for free to anyone, do you ever attach conditions like, "In order for you to keep this free gift, you must do X, Y and Z after you accept it?"

How would any potential recipient of your gift reply to you?

 

[Budman]

Sorry, if that's it and that's all, then there would be only 1 sentence in the Bible. Simple.

Jesus summarized what is required for salvation, which I quoted to you. One must believe the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was for them personally.

When Jesus refers to believe, he means you are all in, and you are doing what he commands us to do.

Okay, Matt. Go ahead and list all the things required to save us. If you care so passionately that we all understand what we have to do (and please don't answer with the generic "obey His commands") then you will take the time to list everything we must do in order to gain, and remain, saved.

Please.

 

[noblenut]

grace saves us the law protects us

 

[InChristalone44]

The law was for his people in the Old Testament, we are in the age of grace! Praise Jesus!

 

[PS]

Jesus summarized what is required for salvation, which I quoted to you. One must believe the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was for them personally.

Okay, Matt. Go ahead and list all the things required to save us. If you care so passionately that we all understand what we have to do (and please don't answer with the generic "obey His commands") then you will take the time to list everything we must do in order to gain, and remain, saved.

Please.

I look on the believers walk with Christ like this, first we become aware of our sin, second we turn to Christ in faith believing and are redeemed in the precious blood of the lamb, and thirdly with Christ in our life we see the product of our faith in our works (James 2:17) which briefly are to look after the poor, love your neighbour, celebrate the Lord's Supper, feed my sheep, etc. etc. there are many more, and although they are often spoken of as 'commandments' that may be the wrong word, guidelines would be better for those who are actively following Christ as his disciples, by which we are guided into paths of righteousness, in which there is no condemnation, for we have already been redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Gal_3:13)

May God bless one and all.

 

[unclesilas]

Wow, I never saw this day coming.

Possibly you underestimated-or neglected to consider internet debating websites, and that explains it

 

[unclesilas]

Grandpa and Budman—-
I don’t claim to walk it perfectly, and would never claim to do so. I also believe that the Torah is a tool to help differentiate us from the world we live in. It does not have redeeming power that is only through our Messiah as I have stated, I also believe and agree with you that the only way to be saved is through our Messiah. However I personally believe that walking out the Torah doesn’t go away once we are saved, it is a means and a tool to live and practice piety as much as possible. The lessons in Torah all point to purity and getting as close to the Father as we can, and we can only get close to Him if we go through the Messiah. I’m not saying that Torah leads to salvation, I’m saying it helps us walk pure and be separated from the world. I also don’t feel you have to convert to my way of thinking, I just like sharing what I feel I have found to be truth in my studies for any whom may be interested or help someone whom may be struggling as I once struggled in my life. You two can come at me and insult me in any way you so desire but it won’t shake my faith or harm me in any way, and I’ll always discuss with you peacefully, and never intentionally insult you, as that is not what my Messiah called me to do, He did call me to walk peacefully even when some may not be peaceful back, and share truth whenever possible.

I chatted to a Jewish Christian once. He told me he followed as much of Torah as he could. He did not do that to in anyway better enable him to enter heaven, for Christ was his sole justification before God. He did it purely out of love for God, and the path he wanted to follow to show that love. I thought that was really nice. The important thing is what we hinge our hope of Heaven on isn't it? He hinged his on Christ, not law observance.
Though I may disagree with you on the point of Christians being expected to follow Torah, I know you are far more mature in the faith than those who simply wish to insult you, by you not replying in kind, you prove that
God bless

 

[Absolutely]

Thank you. So OSAS is not necessarily a true doctrine. IOW some will fall from their saved condition because they later willfully reject their God and turn into a person described in Revelation 21, and will not reap Eternal Life, but eternal hell fire.

This discussion needs to be had in every church around the world. We who say we are saved, need to remain faithful to our God and Savior and not take a position that since I am saved, I can do anything I wish and I trust Jesus has my back and will save me anyway into Eternal Life. I believe there will be a lot of disappointed persons on judgement day.

I am not osas,but i can see the point they make. I lean the other way because i read the bible.
(I usually immerse myself in both sides before i take a position)
What if we are right?

What a horrible dilemma for those blotted out of the lambs book of life

 

[Absolutely]

Sorry, if that's it and that's all, then there would be only 1 sentence in the Bible. Simple.

But there are 27 books, and 180,552 words depending on the 1 of 100+ versions of the Bible you choose to read. So apparently it is not as simple as you want to make it. And besides, the word believe is far deeper than you want to believe too. When Jesus refers to believe, he means you are all in, and you are doing what he commands us to do. One of those commandments being to believe. Or are you like others on this thread that are pretty much ignoring or discounting the words of Jesus, some even to the point of saying they are not necessary and the 4 gospels should not be read because they confuse the matter.

Wow, I never saw this day coming.

It is alarming.
Several dynamics are mis understood.
1) when was Jesus crucified?
To answer that i need to know:
a) was adams sin a detour,or part of the plan?
b) when was the bible written? Was it the book in our hands,or is it a eternal book written before the foundation of the world?
c) is Jesus plan b?
d) Jesus,the God man in his earthly ministry and his correlation to the law,and his JUDAIC PRIESTHOOD. (he WAS NOT a preist of levi. His priesthood was Judah.)

The priesthood ended with JTB.

Jesus the God man UNDER NEW priesthood in his earthly ministry.

That entire component being left out brings in error. It beggs for error.
How in the world can we get ANY TRACTION in understanding w/o this critical ingredient???????

That is part of the gross misunderstanding surrounding the pauline only doctrine.

That lack of understanding denies them the true treasure of the gospels.

 

[preston39]

If you choose to offer something for free to anyone, do you ever attach conditions like, "In order for you to keep this free gift, you must do X, Y and Z after you accept it?"

How would any potential recipient of your gift reply to you?

I never equate human, earthly standards or applications to G-d's. He stands alone.
Thus the word Omnificent and all like.... G-d only words...apply here.

 

[claudia22]

I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

grace saves us the law protects us

How does the law protect us? When the law was fiven to condemn us?

 

[claudia22]

I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scrip
ture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.

PLS JUST WANT TO ANSWER
THE LAW WAS A SCHOOL MASTER WHICH BROUGHT US TO CHRIST: GALATION 3 VERSE 24 - 26.
AS A SINNER.. THE LAW BROUGHT US TO CHRIST.
AS A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, WE ARE WE NOT UNDER THE LAW. BUT WE ARE UNDER GRACE WHICH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST. ROMANS 6 VERSE 14.
WHY WOULD A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER GO BACK TO THE LAW WHICH REFER TO SIN AND DEATH. ROMANS 8 VERSE 2
FROM WHICH WE WERE DELIVERED FROM...WHEN WE BOCOME BORN AGAIN, WE ARE NEW CREATION
THEREFORE IF ANYONE BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATION; OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY;
BEHOLD, ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW. 2 CORINTHIANS 5 VERSE 17

 

[claudia22]

I like what you said except that they are "entirely separate". True Grace and obeying the law are different things but i can't separate the two in my walk. Grace and faith is essential, i can't live without them because i can't obey the law in my power, but when i understand the grace and have faith obeying the law is a natural result that follows. Faith without works is dead. Like a tree, by grace we are watered and feed, by grace we receive sunshine and by grace we produce fruit. Obedience and Godly fruits are not capable without faith in God or without Grace from God, so law keeping and grace go hand in hand, and can't be separated.

I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.

 

[claudia22]

PLS JUST WANT TO ANSWER
THE LAW WAS A SCHOOL MASTER WHICH BROUGHT US TO CHRIST: GALATION 3 VERSE 24 - 26.
AS A SINNER.. THE LAW BROUGHT US TO CHRIST.
AS A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, WE ARE WE NOT UNDER THE LAW. BUT WE ARE UNDER GRACE WHICH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST. JOHN 1 VERSE 17.
WHY WOULD A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER GO BACK TO THE LAW WHICH REFER TO SIN AND DEATH. ROMANS 8 VERSE 2
FROM WHICH WE WERE DELIVERED FROM...WHEN WE BOCAME BORN AGAIN, WE ARE NEW CREATION
THEREFORE IF ANYONE BE IN CHRIST, HE IS A NEW CREATION; OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY;
BEHOLD, ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW. 2 CORINTHIANS 5 VERSE 17. (NKJV).

 

[JohnTalmid]

I don't recall any early assembly Apostles or teachers sacrificing animals for an atonement for sins.

Could you show in the bible where that was done?

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I don't recall any early assembly Apostles or teachers sacrificing animals for an atonement for sins.

Could you show in the bible where that was done?

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It definitely looks like Paul vehemently disagrees with you, John.

Do you consider him to be an "early assembly Apostle"?

It definitely looks like Paul vehemently disagrees with you, John.

Do you consider him to be an "early assembly Apostle"? NO

Paul said in Hebrews I believe that there sacrifice's did atone for son. What they couldn't do was change the heart of man to obey. The difference is atone for and redeem Dr sin. The purpose Messiah brought you and I close to the promise's of Elohim was not so we would languish in so, (sin is violation of the Law of Elohim). He brought us close so would partake in the sanctification work provided through the instructions, (law of Elohim) and be made into the image of the son of Elohim at his return.

Neither do I frustrate the grace of God by believing that the Holy, righteous, and Good works of the instruction of Elohim are good for correction and instruction in righteousness now.
Let's get one thing straight. The ceremony of Attonment didn't cleanse the son of Israel, it was her faith that did that.

 

[Grandpa]

Paul said in Hebrews I believe that there sacrifice's did atone for son. What they couldn't do was change the heart of man to obey. The difference is atone for and redeem Dr sin. The purpose Messiah brought you and I close to the promise's of Elohim was not so we would languish in so, (sin is violation of the Law of Elohim). He brought us close so would partake in the sanctification work provided through the instructions, (law of Elohim) and be made into the image of the son of Elohim at his return.

Neither do I frustrate the grace of God by believing that the Holy, righteous, and Good works of the instruction of Elohim are good for correction and instruction in righteousness now.
Let's get one thing straight. The ceremony of Attonment didn't cleanse the son of Israel, it was her faith that did that.

I guess you just don't understand scripture. I will post it again and maybe you can think about it.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Do you understand what this means?

 

[preston39]

The law is our guide for righteous living. G-d's grace provides a basis for receiving forgiveness when we brake His law.

 

[JohnTalmid]

I guess you just don't understand scripture. I will post it again and maybe you can think about it.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Do you understand what this means?

I guess you just can't see anybody else's perspective on things. What does it matter if I see a thing different from you and others of I still believe that we are saved by Grace through faith? Are we not all found as liars and wrong when Messiah is revealed to all mankind at his return?
Anyway thanks for saying something because nobody else has. I think I'm blocked