Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#1
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,816
113
#2
Just how many threads about this topic do you want, Blik?

My goodness......:confused:
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#3
Just how many threads about this topic do you want, Blik?

My goodness......:confused:
Most postings say you must choose and scripture doesn't agree, most postings say that because they can't be perfect they should not try and scripture doesn't agree, most posting have a knee jerk reaction to law saying it won't save so get rid of it and scripture doesn't agree.

Yet the posters stand firm on these assumptions.

I would like to have the posters rethink these things, if they did I feel sure our very world would benefit.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,359
4,186
113
#4
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
Fallacy: equivocation.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

This chapter makes it absolutely clear that both our salvation and our sanctification are by faith, not by following the law. Paul was clear about what he meant by "the law". He didn't mean the rabbinic teachings; he meant the Law as given to Moses. The quote in verse 10 is from Deuteronomy 27:26 which says, “Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.”

Understand the law, by all means... and understand that we are under a different covenant, for the earlier covenant has been set aside.

Ephesians 4:14-15 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations...

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.
Hebrew 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#5
Fallacy: equivocation.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

This chapter makes it absolutely clear that both our salvation and our sanctification are by faith, not by following the law. Paul was clear about what he meant by "the law". He didn't mean the rabbinic teachings; he meant the Law as given to Moses. The quote in verse 10 is from Deuteronomy 27:26 which says, “Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.”

Understand the law, by all means... and understand that we are under a different covenant, for the earlier covenant has been set aside.

Ephesians 4:14-15 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations...

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.
Hebrew 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
All who RELY on works for salvation. Doing works is NOT relying on them for salvation but loving God.

Rabbinical teachings are teachings to use rituals to obey law, that is NOT law obedience.

The command in the flesh and not in the spirit are set aside, but the law, the spirit of God is NOT set aside.

All of our fleshly earthly life is a shadow of the life to come, that does not mean we should all destroy our earth because it is a shadow of heaven.

To set aside God's law for us is to set aside God.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
2,329
908
113
#6
Isnt the law written on our hearts when we are born again, so, I dont know what the argument is. If its now been placed in your heart, obey it. Because believers are given NEW hearts, right? Grace acts upon the heart, and we are circumcised in the heart. I dont know any believer these days who tells us we need to be circumicised anywhere else.

If you want to be legalistic, up to you, but it wont get you anywhere. You will be like the Pharisees and become self righteous. We are under the new covenant now. Remember the doubleminded man wont receive anything from God. Even before abraham was circumcised, his faith was counted as righteousness before God. And so it is with all the people of God (look in Hebrews 11) by faith it says...and the people their faith by their works i.e obeying God. But note, all the different people commended were not commended in terms of whether they kept the letter of the law. It does not say Abrham was rightous because he got circumcised, or Rahab because she married an israelite, or Samson because he kept the nazarite vow. HEbrews commends them on their faith, for without faith its IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
8,294
4,589
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#7
If you want to be legalistic, up to you, but it wont get you anywhere. You will be like the Pharisees and become self righteous. We are under the new covenant now. Remember the doubleminded man wont receive anything from God.
Ezek. 11:19, 20 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

Kind of looks like the new heart helps us keep God's commandments. As long as we are not doing that for salvation, what is wrong with it? What have any of you done for God lately? :cool:
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
2,329
908
113
#8
The only thing wrong with it was as told in book of acts that the jews wanted the gentiles to be circumcised as they were, Paul said was not necessary as believers were circumcised in the heart.

I mean if you want to take a knife to it, thats up to you...but most people are older than eight days and also half of believers are actually female. Lol
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,359
4,186
113
#9
All who RELY on works for salvation. Doing works is NOT relying on them for salvation but loving God.

Rabbinical teachings are teachings to use rituals to obey law, that is NOT law obedience.

The command in the flesh and not in the spirit are set aside, but the law, the spirit of God is NOT set aside.

All of our fleshly earthly life is a shadow of the life to come, that does not mean we should all destroy our earth because it is a shadow of heaven.

To set aside God's law for us is to set aside God.
Where in Galatians do you see Paul identifying the rabbinic teachings as the "Law" to which he was referring?
Who did the "setting aside" that I quoted? Was it men, or God?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#11
Isnt the law written on our hearts when we are born again, so, I dont know what the argument is. If its now been placed in your heart, obey it. Because believers are given NEW hearts, right? Grace acts upon the heart, and we are circumcised in the heart. I dont know any believer these days who tells us we need to be circumicised anywhere else.

If you want to be legalistic, up to you, but it wont get you anywhere. You will be like the Pharisees and become self righteous. We are under the new covenant now. Remember the doubleminded man wont receive anything from God. Even before abraham was circumcised, his faith was counted as righteousness before God. And so it is with all the people of God (look in Hebrews 11) by faith it says...and the people their faith by their works i.e obeying God. But note, all the different people commended were not commended in terms of whether they kept the letter of the law. It does not say Abrham was rightous because he got circumcised, or Rahab because she married an israelite, or Samson because he kept the nazarite vow. HEbrews commends them on their faith, for without faith its IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
Do you actually think I am trying to change scripture instead of revealing it? Where in the world did you get the idea from any posting of mine that legalistic law is the law God guides us to?

Do you not understand that we are to be circumcised but not circumcised in the flesh? We are to keep our minds from dirt but we can eat all food? We are to celebrate the feasts but we are not to travel to Jerusalem to do so?

I have never said that scripture tells us that God will look at our works to decide on our salvation and I have said over and over and over that it is through faith. Must I write this in blood for you?

Scripture tells us, and I repeat scripture, that as Christ told us: "if you love me you will obey me".
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#12
I'm with you on this one bro, sorta like beaten a dead horse! 😋
Do you really think it is impossible for Christians to accept God's law? Perhaps you are right. It is telling God no, won't listen to you I'll do it my own way. I feel so sorry for them.

At least God's grace is accepted and that is the most important.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,319
1,582
113
#13
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one,
For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Romans 4:16 KJV)

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (Romans 5:20 KJV)

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14 KJV)

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15 KJV)

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21 KJV)

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4 KJV)

We may know about the law but we live by His grace. (And please, don't anyone charge me being against the law.)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#14
For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 KJV)

Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Romans 4:16 KJV)

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (Romans 5:20 KJV)

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14 KJV)

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15 KJV)

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21 KJV)

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4 KJV)

We may know about the law but we live by His grace. (And please, don't anyone charge me being against the law.)
“not one jot or one tittle will pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” Matt 5.18.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6.9)

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

(Acts 5:29) - "But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men."

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
904
852
93
62
#15
Isn't the law written on our hearts when we are born again........
Hi Lanolin, I believe that God writes His law on the hearts of every man/woman, not just on the hearts of those of us who have become Christians.

Speaking of all who are outside of Christ, be they Jew or Gentile, St. Paul said the following:

Romans 2
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do 'by nature' things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.​

IOW, those who have the written Law (but do not have Christ) will be condemned on the basis of that written Law in the Judgment, while those who have neither (the written Law, nor Christ) will be condemned on the basis of the only law that they do have and understand, the law that was written on their hearts by God.

~Deut

John 5
24 He who hears My word, & believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, & does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,319
1,582
113
#16
“not one jot or one tittle will pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” Matt 5.18.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6.9)

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

(Acts 5:29) - "But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men."

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Oh yeah we can play Scriptural ping-pong all day...

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
(Rom 10:3-6)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,496
382
83
#17
Oh yeah we can play Scriptural ping-pong all day...

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
(Rom 10:3-6)
So how do we put on Christ within us in our daily life?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,319
1,582
113
#18
So how do we put on Christ within us in our daily life?
Since the OP deals with the relation between law and grace, I will attempt to answer from that perspective.

I notice you are asking a question involving an oxymoron. "Put on / within us"? Which is it?

Christ is already within born again Christians. We 'put Him on' when we by faith appropriate the truths about Christ by becoming absorbed in His Word and Spirit. (Grace led)

Those who by self effort, mystical disciplines, resolutions, counting to 10 etc., in an attempt to put on Christ are driven by law.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,332
149
63
#19
I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
I like what you said except that they are "entirely separate". True Grace and obeying the law are different things but i can't separate the two in my walk. Grace and faith is essential, i can't live without them because i can't obey the law in my power, but when i understand the grace and have faith obeying the law is a natural result that follows. Faith without works is dead. Like a tree, by grace we are watered and feed, by grace we receive sunshine and by grace we produce fruit. Obedience and Godly fruits are not capable without faith in God or without Grace from God, so law keeping and grace go hand in hand, and can't be separated.