Why I now have issues about "once saved, always saved"

[FollowHisSteps]

For sure a theology can give false security.

If someone tells you that you are saved and consequently tells you that you are OSAS that can give a false sense of security. Such as, say a religion that believes water baptism saves and after doing so tells people they are OSAS. They could go through life thinking they are saved when they really aren't and that they have no worries they are OSAS.

But this doesn't detract from the Truth that when someone comes to Christ and receives Rest from their work and Salvation that this Rest and Salvation is never revoked by Christ. Once God saves a person He doesn't wish that He didn't do it. The person who is saved may wonder why they were saved or that maybe God made a mistake, but God isn't like men in that regard.

My problem is OSAS is why is it relevant.
I get up in the morning. I walk down the road and get hit by a car. It changes my life.
I am not going to forget this event because it changed my life, I was once one way and now I am another.

When you meet Jesus full on, it is like this. He changes everything.

The only place I hear OSAS is from people who do not know Jesus but know religion.
And when I share or testify to Jesus, they say I am not speaking the truth or know Jesus at all.

So I would like to understand why this belief has come to deny a real Jesus experience and reality.
It suggests to me it is a way of excusing and faking faith, because its fruit is not giving glory to Christ.

If I share, "Aim for perfection" and I am called a hypocrite and a perfectionist.
So to follow Jesus and to walk in His ways is to be wrong?

 

[Sketch]

I didn't mean to put it exactly like that but it is Faith in God that saves us.

When our Faith is truly tried will we doubt and fall away or will we know it is just a tribulation in a long line of tribulations that lead to Glory.

How well do you know the Lord Jesus Christ? Well enough to assume that He will never leave you nor forsake you?

Or not quite that well?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

Branch (klhma). Old word from klaw, to break, common in LXX for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (verses 1 Corinthians 2-6 ), elsewhere in N.T. klado ( Mark 4:32 , etc.), also from klaw, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts. In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. Cleanseth (kaqairei). Present active indicative of old verb kaqairw (clean) as in verse Mark 3 , only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though kaqarizw is more frequent ( Hebrews 10:2 ). That it may bear more fruit (ina karpon pleiona perh). Purpose clause with ina and present active subjunctive of perw, "that it may keep on bearing more fruit" (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

 

[Chester]

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

I surely will not be mad at you: Let's just let John 15:2 mean exactly what it says: Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit

 

[Chester]

We should be mad at you. One does not establish any doctrine on the basis of one verse.

So how do you do theology then?

Many here decide what they believe, then go to Scripture and take their doctrine as the basis for interpreting the text.

For myself, I study the verses themselves first, and then where there is clear teaching, I believe it and endeavor to live it out. I don't care if it is just "one verse" -- if its meaning is clear and I understand it, then I believe it and endeavor to live it.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I surely will not be mad at you: Let's just let John 15:2 mean exactly what it says: Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit

it is written as part of the whole message

🙄

Exodus 32:33
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

________________
have you sinned against God?
..welp..... just let the verse say what it says.....
_________________

context is important chester

in me = members of the congregation in john 15

not all these branches have been redeemed from the penalty of exodus 32 33..... like judas (who is relevant in the timing of the parable in john 15)

 

[Bingo]

"Just a thought to contemplate...saved by proxy...faith by proxy. The possibility does exist that
over time, the human mind saturated with heresies, may subtly fool the heart, causing a precarious
dilemma...DOUBT! It must be remembered, conscious never leaves us, each individual must look
within for ones own answer. The intellectual materialistic world shall always remain separate from
the significant inspiration of...in Spirit and Truth...Christ In Us. Of great value is sharing of Christian
minds, so long as one is comfortable in their element."
'Praise God'

 

[mailmandan]

In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit, but then later stop bearing fruit. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet established after the death of Jesus.

So in John 15:2, as Greek scholar At Robertson points out - "we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit)."

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off.

 

[Grandpa]

A lot of christians are living in sin.
They are the ones that need OSAS to be true.
Those walking with Jesus that are overcomers,never worry about those incidentals.They know for a fact they are saved.
So much time wasted on trying to see if our sinful carnal nominal powerless christianity can be salvaged into slipping by ,into barely making heaven.
Which is the real OSAS argument.
Why would a solid believer worry about OSAS?

There are no perfect Christians.
All Christians need OSAS to be true because all Christians have fallen short of the Perfection that is in Christ.

Why would a "solid" believer attempt to cast doubt into the hearts and minds of his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Just for a little fun?

The Truth is the Truth. Just because some abuse it or misunderstand it doesn't cause it to stop being the Truth.

John 6:67-68
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

True believers aren't going anywhere.

 

[Grandpa]

My problem is OSAS is why is it relevant.
I get up in the morning. I walk down the road and get hit by a car. It changes my life.
I am not going to forget this event because it changed my life, I was once one way and now I am another.

When you meet Jesus full on, it is like this. He changes everything.

Yes. Exactly.

Everything is changed. Nothing can go back the way it was. That's OSAS.

I once was lost. But the Lord Jesus came and now I'm found. I can't go back. No one can go back. They would have to Un-know the Lord Jesus Christ and all the blessings that He has given us.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Yes. Exactly.

Everything is changed. Nothing can go back the way it was. That's OSAS.

I once was lost. But the Lord Jesus came and now I'm found. I can't go back. No one can go back. They would have to Un-know the Lord Jesus Christ and all the blessings that He has given us.

But here is the joke, from my perspective, I do not believe in a theological way in OSAS
but that is my heart reality.

I think this shows the problem. We can testify to the reality in Christ, but it does not need
a theological confession to make it real.

Paul confessed living was for Christ, and to go to be with Him, gain.
This is not the kind of confession I hear in fellowships full of OSAS theology.

 

[Grandpa]

But here is the joke, from my perspective, I do not believe in a theological way in OSAS
but that is my heart reality.

I think this shows the problem. We can testify to the reality in Christ, but it does not need
a theological confession to make it real.

Paul confessed living was for Christ, and to go to be with Him, gain.
This is not the kind of confession I hear in fellowships full of OSAS theology.

I guess I am completely different from you.

I needed to understand the Bible.

I needed to understand Salvation.

I needed to understand what had happened when I came to Christ, or when He came to me would probably be the better way of describing the actual situation...

I needed to be able to explain it in simple terms to people who maybe don't understand or don't see it from a certain point of view.


To my understanding, if it doesn't stand the test of explanation through theology then how do you share it?? Why would you share it if you don't know for a fact that its true?

 

[Nehemiah6]

For myself, I study the verses themselves first, and then where there is clear teaching, I believe it and endeavor to live it out.

The clear teaching of the Bible is that eternal life is God's GIFT to the one who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

We could add dozens of Scriptures to support these two passages. The reason eternal life is a gift is because no one can earn salvation and no one can deserve salvation.

At the same time, God does many other things within (and for) the believer, so that there is ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION about losing eternal life.

The correct term is "the eternal security of the believer" not "once saved always saved".

 

[Sketch]

context is important...

Yes, before anyone gets too carried away with Exodus 32:33 (or the OP verse) they should read the context.
In both cases, it doesn't mean what it says in so few words.

 

[Soulalis]

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

Maybe because once saved always saved is in the church no where to be found in the bible anywhere. Ezekiel 18 he who is righteous but turns away from his righteousness and does the abominations of wicked man his righteousness will be forgotten and he will die in his sins. Also many are called but few are chosen

 

[Soulalis]

I guess I could keep going. How was Jesus born was He not born by His mothers womb and conceived by the Holy Spirit? Then wouldn't it be safe to say we are not born by the Holy Ghost but conceived also. So the Potterer is the one to mold us shape us and break us for He is also the Coner Stone once He breakers our will then we become born again like Jacob was Hosea 12:3-4

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I guess I am completely different from you.

I needed to understand the Bible.

I needed to understand Salvation.

I needed to understand what had happened when I came to Christ, or when He came to me would probably be the better way of describing the actual situation...

I needed to be able to explain it in simple terms to people who maybe don't understand or don't see it from a certain point of view.


To my understanding, if it doesn't stand the test of explanation through theology then how do you share it?? Why would you share it if you don't know for a fact that its true?

I suppose my answer to this is when Gods word dwells in your heart, and the words begin to form a complex whole,
theology is the language of ideas, while the word of God shows its reality.

If I give a person who knows not Jesus the idea he has gained that which He has not, then sin and the struggles
of issues are not something they regard highly, but rather weave they idea they can sin for gain, and claim
heaven as well. So I see little benefit and only trauma from its theology to those who are not truly saved.

 

[Grandpa]

I suppose my answer to this is when Gods word dwells in your heart, and the words begin to form a complex whole,
theology is the language of ideas, while the word of God shows its reality.

If I give a person who knows not Jesus the idea he has gained that which He has not, then sin and the struggles
of issues are not something they regard highly, but rather weave they idea they can sin for gain, and claim
heaven as well. So I see little benefit and only trauma from its theology to those who are not truly saved.

What about people who ARE saved but think they have lost their salvation because of something some anti-faith legalist has told them?

Then they are going through their life in fear thinking God has forsaken them when He hasn't.

I guess in either situation the scripture is true that says My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

What about people who ARE saved but think they have lost their salvation because of something some anti-faith legalist has told them?
Then they are going through their life in fear thinking God has forsaken them when He hasn't.
I guess in either situation the scripture is true that says My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

My heart goes out to people in this situation. I know of people who have been hurt and left the church.
I do not believe OSAS answers this though. What answers it is the cross and Jesus's love and forgiveness.

Our walk rests on Jesus and His sheep hear His voice and follow. I have seen this time and again.
There is a real life and light comes into people when they recognise, they know Jesus, they hear their
Lord, and He knows. God bless you, brother.

 

[garee]

We should be mad at you. One does not establish any doctrine on the basis of one verse.

Exactly . The next verse is directed to those of those who have been cleansed . Christian are clean They do bear the fruit of the incorruptible seed by which all nations of men are born again. Is not written to those who believe not as those who walk by sight .

John 15:2-3 King James Version (KJV) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye "are clean" through the word which I have spoken unto you.