Why I now have issues about "once saved, always saved"

[garee]

The Scriptures teach that believing in Jesus does not take away our free will, .

Yes he established it taking away a will subject to the slavery of the god of this wotrld.


Free will is to do the will of the unseen father who works in and with His creation to both will and do his good pleasure.(imputed righteousness) We should do without murmuring, comparing ourselves to ourselves in selfish pride..

Free will is just as he created a will...... to be subject to Him. Mankind gave that over in the garden, God gave them over with a strong delusion to do that which they should not . Becoming a slave to the will of the god of this world... lust of the eyes. lust of the flesh needed to build up false pride.

Its the kind of food of doing the will of another that the apostles knew not of.

John 4:33-35 King James Version (KJV) Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My problem is OSAS is why is it relevant.
I get up in the morning. I walk down the road and get hit by a car. It changes my life.
I am not going to forget this event because it changed my life, I was once one way and now I am another.

When you meet Jesus full on, it is like this. He changes everything.

The only place I hear OSAS is from people who do not know Jesus but know religion.
And when I share or testify to Jesus, they say I am not speaking the truth or know Jesus at all.

So I would like to understand why this belief has come to deny a real Jesus experience and reality.
It suggests to me it is a way of excusing and faking faith, because its fruit is not giving glory to Christ.

If I share, "Aim for perfection" and I am called a hypocrite and a perfectionist.
So to follow Jesus and to walk in His ways is to be wrong?

Here is the problem

If you get hit by the car and die,


osas says your in paradise because you have been redeemed and have eternal life and the seal of the spirit because of the cross and our high priest continually making intercession for us

Non osas says you may be in paradise, or may be in hades, it depends on your performance while you were living, and whether you did all that was required.

The first depends on God, his promises and his work

The second depends on religion, and mans righteousness and his work.

Pitty the people in group two because there will be no hope. There is no purgatory, its too late.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I surely will not be mad at you: Let's just let John 15:2 mean exactly what it says: Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit

The term “takes away literally means “lifts up” it is a term used of the gardner lifting up the branches off the ground so they can produce fruit, both lifting up and pruning are terms that are used to help,a,tree produce fruit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe because once saved always saved is in the church no where to be found in the bible anywhere. Ezekiel 18 he who is righteous but turns away from his righteousness and does the abominations of wicked man his righteousness will be forgotten and he will die in his sins. Also many are called but few are chosen

All this says is that our rightiousness will not save us, thats why we need grace

It reminds me of when james said if we keep the whole law yet fail in one point we are guilty, and as such cursed.

 

[Chester]

Here is the problem

If you get hit by the car and die,


osas says your in paradise because you have been redeemed and have eternal life and the seal of the spirit because of the cross and our high priest continually making intercession for us

Non osas says you may be in paradise, or may be in hades, it depends on your performance while you were living, and whether you did all that was required.

The first depends on God, his promises and his work

The second depends on religion, and mans righteousness and his work.

Pitty the people in group two because there will be no hope. There is no purgatory, its too late.

While some may believe how you describe it here, it is now how I see it:

If you get hit by a car and die,

osas believes that because at a point in time in the past you believed in Jesus Christ and his blood atonement and were redeemed - it is because of that past event that you will be saved and get to heaven

non-osas believes that if I am believing in Jesus Christ and his blood atonement when I die that I will be saved and get to heaven. (this is how I believe)

 

[LW97]

That is not the meaning of John 15:2. Matthew Henry gives us a good summary:

(1.) The doom of the unfruitful (v. 2): They are taken away. [1.] It is here intimated that there are many who pass for branches in Christ who yet do not bear fruit. Were they really united to Christ by faith, they would bear fruit; but being only tied to him by the thread of an outward profession, though they seem to be branches, they will soon be seen to be dry ones. Unfruitful professors are unfaithful professors; professors, and no more. It might be read, Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, and it comes much to one; for those that do not bear fruit in Christ, and in his Spirit and grace, are as if they bore no fruit at all, Hos. 10:1. [2.] It is here threatened that they shall be taken away, in justice to them and in kindness to the rest of the branches. From him that has not real union with Christ, and fruit produced thereby, shall be taken away even that which he seemed to have, Lu. 8:18. Some think this refers primarily to Judas.

What about 1 Timothy 4:1? Can depart someone from the faith even though he never was part of the faith?

 

[Chester]

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

I wonder what you make of some of the next verses following?

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[Chester]

What about 1 Timothy 4:1? Can depart someone from the faith even though he never was part of the faith?

Do you mean like this? Is it possible to depart from a town that you were never in?

 

[Chester]

To establish matters concerning the body of Christ, go to Paul's thirteen epistles. You are establishing doctrine based on a verse in John where the NT is not yet established. NT doctrine is established after the death of the testator, Jesus Christ.

Paul's words are more authoritative than the words of Jesus? That is not how I approach the Gospels.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

While some may believe how you describe it here, it is now how I see it:

I am just explaining what the verse actually says, not trying to prove or disprove osas. I was not sure if you knew it or not, the post was more directed to the person you responded to.

If you get hit by a car and die,

osas believes that because at a point in time in the past you believed in Jesus Christ and his blood atonement and were redeemed - it is because of that past event that you will be saved and get to heaven

non-osas believes that if I am believing in Jesus Christ and his blood atonement when I die that I will be saved and get to heaven. (this is how I believe)

Osas says because of the cross, i am saved at that moment. Because of gods promise

You believe if you have the power to still believe at that time, you may get to heaven

This is how i see it.

But not sure what that has to do with the verse.

 

[John146]

Paul's words are more authoritative than the words of Jesus? That is not how I approach the Gospels.

Paul's words are the words of Jesus, just truth pertaining to after His resurrection. The body of Christ was not established until after the death of the testator, Jesus Christ.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Here is the problem
If you get hit by the car and die,
osas says your in paradise because you have been redeemed and have eternal life and the seal of the spirit because of the cross and our high priest continually making intercession for us
Non osas says you may be in paradise, or may be in hades, it depends on your performance while you were living, and whether you did all that was required.
The first depends on God, his promises and his work
The second depends on religion, and mans righteousness and his work.
Pitty the people in group two because there will be no hope. There is no purgatory, its too late.

This sounds like a belief system and not trusting in God.
Believe one way, God saves you, believe another, He does not.

You are where you are when you go to meet the Lord.
If we walk with Christ, we will continue to walk with Christ.
If we do not walk with Christ, then why should it suddenly start, when we have died.

Somewhere there is a disconnect. Death is the stopping of the body, not some sudden transformation
into someone totally different. When we are raised again, that is us, just us, as we are.

I used to think people changed in different circumstances. But now I know we stay the same unless
we have opened up to the Lord and abide in Him.

Everything else is just wishful thinking, life is just a dream and the magic happens at the end.
No that is hollywood, they are not this ugly sinner, lost and alone, they are really an angelic
angel waiting to burst out, except they never were and never made it to the starting gate.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Jesus loves us all so much, nothing matters, we live in a sand pit, and there are no consequences,
just look deeply into His eyes, and you will drift away into paradise, to live a life of luxury and ease
eternally.

Oh that is too stupid. Unbelievers will rot in hell for not looking into Jesus's eyes, but we did once
and that is enough, nothing else matters, just believeeeeeeee.

Life is brutal, when you see how cruel people can be possessed with power and the will to do what
they like without restraint or sense.

There is only one way out and it is hard. The gate, and the narrow path.
This is Jesus talking, not me, Jesus.

So my brothers and sisters, listen to Him, let His words dwell in your heart.
You will find it is much better than Hollywood and these fake dreams, because He is real and His
Kingdom knows no end, full of love, joy and peace. Praise be to the Lord Almighty.

 

[Grandpa]

While some may believe how you describe it here, it is now how I see it:

If you get hit by a car and die,

osas believes that because at a point in time in the past you believed in Jesus Christ and his blood atonement and were redeemed - it is because of that past event that you will be saved and get to heaven

non-osas believes that if I am believing in Jesus Christ and his blood atonement when I die that I will be saved and get to heaven. (this is how I believe)

Salvation is a gift from God.

It is not a condition placed on men to attain.

If, at a point in time in the past, God has Saved someone then they stay in that Saved condition because it is a Work of God and God doesn't take back His Gifts.


Non-OSAS believes that it is up to men to save themselves by correctly believing in scripture at either just the right time or at all times, depending on who preaches it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This sounds like a belief system and not trusting in God.
Believe one way, God saves you, believe another, He does not.

Well yeah, thats what paul meant when he said if anyone, and he meant ANYONE teach another gospel, let them be accursed,

There is one gospel.not multiple, if you have the wrong faith, your off the straight and narrow gate,

You are where you are when you go to meet the Lord.
If we walk with Christ, we will continue to walk with Christ.
If we do not walk with Christ, then why should it suddenly start, when we have died.

It is not me who keeps me saved, it is God in me who keeps me saved, if i walk off the path, his discipline will help me back on, like he did jonah when jonah tried to walk away.

Somewhere there is a disconnect.

The disconnect is thinking you can save yourself, or that your actions will count one iota towards your eternal salvation, your works are as bloody rags, you can try and try to be righteous, you will still fall short.

The disconnect is lack of faith in god, and trusting in your own Power

Death is the stopping of the body, not some sudden transformation
into someone totally different. When we are raised again, that is us, just us, as we are.

Your either dead to christ or your alive in him, there is no other state, what ever state you are in when this physical life ends, determins where you will wake up on the other side.

So are you alive because of god, or dead because of self. You chose.

I used to think people changed in different circumstances. But now I know we stay the same unless
we have opened up to the Lord and abide in Him.

Everything else is just wishful thinking, life is just a dream and the magic happens at the end.
No that is hollywood, they are not this ugly sinner, lost and alone, they are really an angelic
angel waiting to burst out, except they never were and never made it to the starting gate.

You offer wishful thinking, you do not offer hope, you offer salvation byones own power to do what you deem necessary to save yourself.

God offers salvation, become the tax collector and get on your knees, be the atheist who denies there even is a god, or be the pharisee who thinks he is ok because of his religion

Again, the choice is yours,

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Well yeah, thats what paul meant when he said if anyone, and he meant ANYONE teach another gospel, let them be accursed,
There is one gospel.not multiple, if you have the wrong faith, your off the straight and narrow gate,
It is not me who keeps me saved, it is God in me who keeps me saved, if i walk off the path, his discipline will help me back on, like he did jonah when jonah tried to walk away.
The disconnect is thinking you can save yourself, or that your actions will count one iota towards your eternal salvation, your works are as bloody rags, you can try and try to be righteous, you will still fall short.
The disconnect is lack of faith in god, and trusting in your own Power
Your either dead to christ or your alive in him, there is no other state, what ever state you are in when this physical life ends, determins where you will wake up on the other side.
So are you alive because of god, or dead because of self. You chose.
You offer wishful thinking, you do not offer hope, you offer salvation byones own power to do what you deem necessary to save yourself.
God offers salvation, become the tax collector and get on your knees, be the atheist who denies there even is a god, or be the pharisee who thinks he is ok because of his religion
Again, the choice is yours,

Listen to hollywood. God will close the gap between what you when you die and what you should be.

God is powerless to make you truly His people, because He did not achieve this with the disciples and
cannot we you.

God declares the opposite if you have faith in Him, not as these unbelievers preach.
They will claim God will go the impossible behind the scenes, while in front it looks like defeated sinners
are bound is sin and confused about what God meant.

Unbelievers claim to obey and follow Jesus is saving yourself and not being obedient.
Odd because Jesus said the wise do this, and foolish disobey.

So who should you listen to, Jesus or the foolish?
It has never been clearer for His sheep, and the rest will always go another way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Listen to hollywood. God will close the gap between what you when you die and what you should be.

God is powerless to make you truly His people, because He did not achieve this with the disciples and
cannot we you.

God declares the opposite if you have faith in Him, not as these unbelievers preach.
They will claim God will go the impossible behind the scenes, while in front it looks like defeated sinners
are bound is sin and confused about what God meant.

Unbelievers claim to obey and follow Jesus is saving yourself and not being obedient.
Odd because Jesus said the wise do this, and foolish disobey.

So who should you listen to, Jesus or the foolish?
It has never been clearer for His sheep, and the rest will always go another way.

I think the bolded prety much tells me all i need to know.

Thank you

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I think the bolded prety much tells me all i need to know.
Thank you

This note shows one thing, closely reading what is written shows what it means.
I will spell this out.

Jesus died so we can walk as He did.
But if the Lord has to make us perfect when He returns, it is all too late.
But this is what the God of the gaps follow. Which is why they have no
desire to walk as Jesus did and learn His ways.

 

[Jimbone]

The Bible is quite clear: those who believe are saved; those who do not believe are not saved! Quite simple. Why add doctrine of OSAS or Non-OSAS to the Bible: just take it for what it says. . .

See I personally have an issue, not problem, or disagreement, but a technical issue with this statement. I've personally "believed" I was saved before when I wasn't. I repeated the prayer, was dunked under water, was declared saved, but I absolutely DID NOT know Him. So how do we reconcile what this says here with what God has shown me. I believed I was saved, and I truly liked the "idea" of Jesus, but was still not born again. I don't disagree with what you're saying at all (I couldn't without disagreeing with scripture, that's just what it plainly says), but just sharing that "believe" was a much bigger word than I knew, and sometimes when we make it sound like just "saying so" is enough, with no looking at the problem with man's hopelessly wicked heart, the absolute NEED for a Savior, and turning from "your way" to Him (repentance). So without a doubt "those who believe are saved", but sometimes you can believe you believe when you don't, at least in my experience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This note shows one thing, closely reading what is written shows what it means.
I will spell this out.

Jesus died so we can walk as He did.
But if the Lord has to make us perfect when He returns, it is all too late.
But this is what the God of the gaps follow. Which is why they have no
desire to walk as Jesus did and learn His ways.

You did not change anything

The lord has to save you till the end and perfect you because you are unable to so yourself.

So if God can not do it, (like you said) we have no hope.