Not By Works
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Typical straw man argument.
If one reads Romans 2:6-8 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
This is DESCRIPTIVE of the "righteous."
This is DESCRIPTIVE of the "unrighteous." Living in rebellion to God/disobeying the truth/choosing to live in unrighteousness is NOT descriptive of genuine Christians.
If one reads Romans 2:6-8 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
This is DESCRIPTIVE of the "righteous."
This is DESCRIPTIVE of the "unrighteous." Living in rebellion to God/disobeying the truth/choosing to live in unrighteousness is NOT descriptive of genuine Christians.
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Some here can't seem to get beyond Justification even though they say they understand sanctification...
If we choose to believe the gospel we are justified and born again instantly.
Then we are to become sanctified. This is NOT shoe-horning acts of obedience into salvation.
No one here is teaching works salvation.
Those that do works are ALREADY saved....now it is their walk with God to become sanctified by their obedience. This is the gospel of Jesus.
We purify our hearts by faith...
Now the act of obedience that saves....as you've stated above...is to choose to BELIEVE in the gospel.
You love Greek,,,,tell us what BELIEVE means?
It means to obey God....
Those who believe...obey.
Those who do not believe...do not obey.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.
See also : pisteu
A2. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] peitho "to persuade," in the Middle and Passive Voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.
Note: For apisteo, the negative of pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
See also : peitho
B1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Noun] pistis "faith," is translated "belief" in Rom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13.Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.
Note: In 1 Cor 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1 Cor 7:15; Rom 16:1;James 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.
See also : pistis
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If we choose to believe the gospel we are justified and born again instantly.
Then we are to become sanctified. This is NOT shoe-horning acts of obedience into salvation.
No one here is teaching works salvation.
Those that do works are ALREADY saved....now it is their walk with God to become sanctified by their obedience. This is the gospel of Jesus.
We purify our hearts by faith...
Now the act of obedience that saves....as you've stated above...is to choose to BELIEVE in the gospel.
You love Greek,,,,tell us what BELIEVE means?
It means to obey God....
Those who believe...obey.
Those who do not believe...do not obey.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.
See also : pisteu
A2. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] peitho "to persuade," in the Middle and Passive Voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.
Note: For apisteo, the negative of pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
See also : peitho
B1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Noun] pistis "faith," is translated "belief" in Rom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13.Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.
Note: In 1 Cor 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1 Cor 7:15; Rom 16:1;James 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.
See also : pistis
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part 2 of 2
C1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Adjective] pistos
(a) in the Active sense means "believing, trusting;"
(b) in the Passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2 Cor 6:15; "them that believe" in 1 Tim 4:12, RV (AV, "believers"); in 1 Tim 5:16, "if any woman that believeth," lit., "if any believing woman." So in 1 Tim 6:2, "believing masters." In 1 Pet 1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (AV, "do believe in God"). In John 20:27 it is translated "believing."
It is best understood with significance C1(a), e.g., in Gal 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Cor 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance C1(b), e.g., in 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3 (see Notes on Thess. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.
Notes:
(1) The corresponding negative verb is apisteo, 2 Tim 2:13, AV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."
(2) The negative noun apistia, "unbelief," is used twice in Matthew (Matt 13:58; Matt 17:20), three times in Mark (Mark 6:6; Mark 9:24; Mark 16:14), four times in Romans (Rom 3:3; Rom 4:20; Rom 11:20,23); elsewhere in 1 Tim 1:13; Heb 3:12,19.
(3) The adjective apistos is translated "unbelievers" in 1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; in 2 Cor 6:15, RV, "unbeliever" (AV, "infidel"); so in 1 Tim 5:8; "unbelieving" in 1 Cor 7:12-15; 1 Cor 14:22-24; 2 Cor 4:4;Titus 1:15; Rev 21:8; "that believe not" in 1 Cor 10:27. In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Matt 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; John 20:27, but in Luke 12:46, RV, "unfaithful," AV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Acts 26:8. See FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVER.
(4) Plerophoreo, in Luke 1:1 (AV, "are most surely believed," lit., "have had full course"), the RV renders "have been fulfilled." See FULFILL, KNOW, PERSUADE, PROOF.
See also : pistos
Result 2- Unbeliever
apistos an adjective, is used as a noun, rendered "unbeliever" in 2 Cor 6:15; 1 Tim 5:8, RV; plural in 1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; AV only, Luke 12:46 (RV, "unfaithful"). See BELIEF FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE.
See also : apistos
Result 3- Disbelieve
apisteo "to be unbelieving" (a, negative, pistis, "faith;" cp. apistos, "unbelieving"), is translated "believed not," etc., in the AV (except in 1 Pet 2:7, "be disobedient"); "disbelieve" (or "disbelieved") in the RV, in Mark 16:11,16; Luke 24:11,41; Acts 28:24; "disbelieve" is the best rendering, implying that the unbeliever has had a full opportunity of believing and has rejected it; some mss. have apeitheo, "to be disobedient," in 1 Pet 2:7; Rom 3:3, RV, "were without faith;" 2 Tim 2:13, RV, "are faithless. Cp. apeitheo under DISOBEDIENT. See BELIEVE.
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Strong's G5219 gives the Greek word hypakouō "from G5259 and G191s; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey."
As Scripture interprets Scripture, one could juxtapose this with Strong's G545; "to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving."
It is translated as both "do not believe" and "disobey" in 1 Peter 2:7,8:
C1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Adjective] pistos
(a) in the Active sense means "believing, trusting;"
(b) in the Passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2 Cor 6:15; "them that believe" in 1 Tim 4:12, RV (AV, "believers"); in 1 Tim 5:16, "if any woman that believeth," lit., "if any believing woman." So in 1 Tim 6:2, "believing masters." In 1 Pet 1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (AV, "do believe in God"). In John 20:27 it is translated "believing."
It is best understood with significance C1(a), e.g., in Gal 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Cor 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance C1(b), e.g., in 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3 (see Notes on Thess. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.
Notes:
(1) The corresponding negative verb is apisteo, 2 Tim 2:13, AV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."
(2) The negative noun apistia, "unbelief," is used twice in Matthew (Matt 13:58; Matt 17:20), three times in Mark (Mark 6:6; Mark 9:24; Mark 16:14), four times in Romans (Rom 3:3; Rom 4:20; Rom 11:20,23); elsewhere in 1 Tim 1:13; Heb 3:12,19.
(3) The adjective apistos is translated "unbelievers" in 1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; in 2 Cor 6:15, RV, "unbeliever" (AV, "infidel"); so in 1 Tim 5:8; "unbelieving" in 1 Cor 7:12-15; 1 Cor 14:22-24; 2 Cor 4:4;Titus 1:15; Rev 21:8; "that believe not" in 1 Cor 10:27. In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Matt 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; John 20:27, but in Luke 12:46, RV, "unfaithful," AV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Acts 26:8. See FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVER.
(4) Plerophoreo, in Luke 1:1 (AV, "are most surely believed," lit., "have had full course"), the RV renders "have been fulfilled." See FULFILL, KNOW, PERSUADE, PROOF.
See also : pistos
Result 2- Unbeliever
apistos an adjective, is used as a noun, rendered "unbeliever" in 2 Cor 6:15; 1 Tim 5:8, RV; plural in 1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; AV only, Luke 12:46 (RV, "unfaithful"). See BELIEF FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE.
See also : apistos
Result 3- Disbelieve
apisteo "to be unbelieving" (a, negative, pistis, "faith;" cp. apistos, "unbelieving"), is translated "believed not," etc., in the AV (except in 1 Pet 2:7, "be disobedient"); "disbelieve" (or "disbelieved") in the RV, in Mark 16:11,16; Luke 24:11,41; Acts 28:24; "disbelieve" is the best rendering, implying that the unbeliever has had a full opportunity of believing and has rejected it; some mss. have apeitheo, "to be disobedient," in 1 Pet 2:7; Rom 3:3, RV, "were without faith;" 2 Tim 2:13, RV, "are faithless. Cp. apeitheo under DISOBEDIENT. See BELIEVE.
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Strong's G5219 gives the Greek word hypakouō "from G5259 and G191s; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey."
As Scripture interprets Scripture, one could juxtapose this with Strong's G545; "to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving."
It is translated as both "do not believe" and "disobey" in 1 Peter 2:7,8:
No condescension meant at all, but I feel and fear for you. Every post of yours is filled with works YOU need to do to either save yourself or remain saved. Maybe your heart has become hardened to the True Gospel. I don't know. I truly hope not.
But I have a question for you. In your profile you list Romans 8:38-39 as your favorite verses. Definitely in my top 5!
How can you read those verses and somehow think a born again Child of God could ever be separated from Christ?
Romans 8:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul uses every single superlative he can think of to say we will NEVER be separated from Him.
So how are you, being a created being, going to separate yourself from Christ, IF you are indeed His Child?
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Do you have any thought of your own...
or you just parrot another member here....
Here's what God wants:
I Samuel 15:22
“And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.” —
or you just parrot another member here....
Here's what God wants:
I Samuel 15:22
“And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.” —
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Exactly. Faith is not merely an exercise of the will and or the mind. It is a gift of God.
I am not arguing for "God only draws some". I do not carry it that far. That is why I say I am not a full Calvinist. But I am saying that God began the work and He finishes it. It is not us who begins the work, it is God. Faith is a gift, as even DC said
I am not arguing for "God only draws some". I do not carry it that far. That is why I say I am not a full Calvinist. But I am saying that God began the work and He finishes it. It is not us who begins the work, it is God. Faith is a gift, as even DC said
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It's NESSUNO.
And, yes, some on here DO promote disobedience to God
or they wouldn't be arguing with those of us who believe obedience is necessary to please God...
which it has been from the beginning.
Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden due to disobedience.
Do you think God has changed?
Hebrews 13:8
Mark 9:40
I am FOR God and FOR obeying Him and FOR following all His commandments.
And, yes, some on here DO promote disobedience to God
or they wouldn't be arguing with those of us who believe obedience is necessary to please God...
which it has been from the beginning.
Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden due to disobedience.
Do you think God has changed?
Hebrews 13:8
Mark 9:40
I am FOR God and FOR obeying Him and FOR following all His commandments.
Don't confuse believing the gospel and becoming saved with ongoing sanctification which follows.
It IS shoe-horning acts of obedience/works "into" salvation through faith when the end result is salvation by faith + works.
If you can believe that, then you can believe anything!
Believe is not defined "as" obedience/works. Just because obeying is a manifestation of believing does not mean that believing is defined "as" multiple acts of obedience/works. Disobedience is also a manifestation of unbelief, yet unbelief is not defined "as" multiple acts of disobedience. Roman Catholics (as do all works-salvationists) make the error of defining faith "as" obedience/works. Here is an example below from a statement made by a Roman Catholic:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
Of course, that statement above is absolutely FALSE and is a good example of "shoe horning" works "into" salvation through faith and the end result is salvation by faith + works.
Strong's #4100: pisteuo (pronounced pist-yoo'-o) from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G4100/pisteuo.htm
Strong's #4102: pistis (pronounced pis'-tis) from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G4102/pistis.htm
You seem to get confused when comparing pistis and pisteuo with apethieo. I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works and end up basically defining believe "as" obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
It IS shoe-horning acts of obedience/works "into" salvation through faith when the end result is salvation by faith + works.
If you can believe that, then you can believe anything!
Believe is not defined "as" obedience/works. Just because obeying is a manifestation of believing does not mean that believing is defined "as" multiple acts of obedience/works. Disobedience is also a manifestation of unbelief, yet unbelief is not defined "as" multiple acts of disobedience. Roman Catholics (as do all works-salvationists) make the error of defining faith "as" obedience/works. Here is an example below from a statement made by a Roman Catholic:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
Of course, that statement above is absolutely FALSE and is a good example of "shoe horning" works "into" salvation through faith and the end result is salvation by faith + works.
Strong's #4100: pisteuo (pronounced pist-yoo'-o) from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G4100/pisteuo.htm
Strong's #4102: pistis (pronounced pis'-tis) from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G4102/pistis.htm
You seem to get confused when comparing pistis and pisteuo with apethieo. I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works and end up basically defining believe "as" obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
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