Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

Lanolin · Mar 1, 2019

The whole thing I find funny is that they will argue over what the word IS means.

I mean really? Its true I once followed a calvinist and arminist argument they were having online and thats what they ended up doing.

Best not to get involved.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 1, 2019

Lanolin said:

I couldn't agree more!
Could Jesus have meant for us to do this??
John 17:21

GodsGrace101 · Mar 1, 2019

xjohnson said:

Hi, Everyone -

I proffer that the answer to the question I posed is "yes", and the reason I decided to join this Christian chat service is to get your reaction to my approach on this subject. Perhaps, some will respond to my approach with a convincing and compelling rebuttal to demonstrate the ways in which my approach is flawed.

In the world of physics there are two irreconcilable disciplines: "quantum mechanics" and "relativity". The rules found in quantum mechanics do not apply in relativity, and, likewise, the rules found in relativity do not apply to quantum mechanics. This divide has led scientists to attempt to define a theory that unifies these two disciplines . Despite being unsuccessful for decades, the effort to unite the two approaches continues today.

In light of Scripture, it would seem Christians would have within themselves a similar desire to unite those who adhere to either of these theological traditions. For example, Jesus prayed in John 17 the following:

I do not pray for these [Jesus' 11 disciples] alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

This text shows that our unity is not only Jesus' desire, but has two additional services: to be a testimony to non-believers that our Father did send Jesus and that our Father loves us just as He loved Jesus. Consequently, any inducement to separate ourselves from each other on the basis of man-made theological traditions (i.e., Calvinism, and Arminianism) are to be assiduously rejected.

From my experience, Christians who are expanding their understanding of Christendom are told that Christendom is split into two camps: Calvinist and Arminian; no other options are mentioned. Because of taking debate classes during my undergraduate training, I almost immediately thought to myself that the potential exists for the two-camp presentation of Christendom to be a false dilemma, and, based on my study of Scripture, it is that. I’d like to share with you below a paper I wrote in 2018 that employs an interpretive framework that demonstrates the two-camp narrative to be false thereby destroying the separation between these two camps. If you can demonstrate how the paper fails to achieve this objective, then I’d like you to tell me. Thanks!

My Perspective on Arminianism and Calvinism

Both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong in their explanations of how the salvation process works. These theological traditions neither recognize nor address the overarching role Isaiah’s curse had in producing significant differences in the way Jews and Gentiles responded to the Gospel as overwhelmingly demonstrated in Scripture. Consequently, both of these traditions are defective, unreliable, inaccurate, and unbiblical.

A Simple Salvation Process for All

The salvation process is simple:

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-13).

Notice in Romans 11:5-10 how this simple process contains a prerequisite for the Jews - specifically, “election”. The election prerequisite is strictly for and to Jews; Scripture never describes Gentiles as having this prerequisite. This prerequisite is necessary because the Jews were handicapped by a curse that prevented them from believing the Gospel.

Isaiah’s Curse

The Jews were cursed through Isaiah, and this curse formed the basis for their needing to be elected by God unto salvation:

And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed” (Isaiah 6:9-10).

The above curse was quoted by Jesus when describing the Jewish condition to His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17. Consequently, the curse significantly impacted the way in which Jesus communicated to the Jews: in parables only. In addition, the same curse was quoted by Paul when contrasting the Jewish and Gentile responses to the Gospel in Acts 28:17-29. Consequently, the curse rendered all Jews as damned and bereft of salvation unless God chose to break the curse on those Jews He chose for salvation, per Romans 11:5-10. Even the prophets were blinded, according to Isaiah 29:10. Fortunately, the curse had an expiration date (Isaiah 6:11-13) and expired upon the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

The Electoral Process that Breaks Isaiah’s Curse on the Jews

In order for Isaiah’s curse on the Jews to be broken so they could be saved, God chose (or, elected) which of the Jews to save:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not … at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace … What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:1-7).

In the above passage we find that:

all Jews were blinded from salvation,
some Jews were elected unto salvation, and
those who were elected comprised a remnant.

This “blinding and election” action was directed toward Jews and not the Gentiles:

“Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded”.
“Go and tell this people … Keep on seeing, but do not perceive … and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes ...”.

Election was an ongoing process throughout Jewish history as described in Romans 9:6-13. It was still in effect in Paul’s day as described in Romans 11:5 and chronicled by Lydia’s conversion in Acts 16:13-15. But since, as of today, the curse has expired, the electoral process for Jews has been abandoned (Isaiah 29:17-24).

EDIT

Your thesis is pretty funny.
Why?

Because the election has nothing to do with God choosing which Jews will be saved!
We already have enough problems....Please don't make new ones.

Election has to do with God electing, or choosing, the Hebrews----Israelites----Jews to be the chosen people through whom God would reveal Himself.

I could post plenty of links if you're interested, but I'm sure you could find them yourself.

Here's something on YouTube you might be interested in watching.
I don't post this because I adhere to this pastor's teachings....just because it agrees with what theologians teach (except those of the calvinist theology - of course!)

GodsGrace101 · Mar 1, 2019

Grandpa said:

lol

I dislike Calvinism because it changes the NATURE OF GOD.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world......
1 John 2:2

1. First of all it doesn't mean EVERYONE in the world is saved.
What a straw man!

There are CONDITIONS to being saved....Jesus died for everyone that ACCEPTS those conditions.

And he also died for the sins of the whole world in a sense that I don't care to get into on this thread....but think of it like this: Some Buddhists are saved.....Some tribal members are saved....
WHO died for THEIR sins?
Please remember Romans 1:19-20 before anyone writes about Jesus being the only way....

As to God's nature....
Here it is:

God is LOVE
1 John 4:8b
God is love.

God is MERCIFUL
Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

God is JUST
Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.

And, let's not forget
Psalm 86:5
For You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive,
And abundant in loving kindness to all who call upon You.

Does that sound like the God calvin believed in?
Now you could say we're just a little dumber than calvinists who are capable of accepting this unjust, unloving and unmerciful God , and are afraid to admit what a mean God He really is....
OR.....you might just be wrong....

Marcelo · Mar 1, 2019

Adstar said:

I have never thoroughly researched this subject and my simplistic view of it is this:

Total depravity

Calvinists say we’ve been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness, and Arminians say this helplessness is only partial. Well, everything we have comes from God and therefore if we already had spiritual assets before conversion that means God was already working on us. Besides, it makes no difference whether a person has spiritual assets or not before God's call because they will always need the Lord anyway.

Unconditional election

Calvinists say human beings are unable to choose by themselves to follow God, while Arminians think otherwise. I myself think God chooses us and we choose Him, and so neither side is completely right or completely wrong.

Unlimited Atonement

Calvinists say Jesus died for the elect only and Arminians say He died for all. Again, neither side is completely right or completely wrong. God wants everyone to be saved, but He knows that only a minority (the elect)will accept His whole truth. God is an infinite Being and we can’t understand this apparent contradiction.

Irresistible Grace

Calvinists say God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminians argue that it can be resisted.

We have free will to accept or to reject grace, but God knows beforehand who will accept it or not because (again) He is an infinite being.

Perseverance of the Saints

Calvinists say o.s.a.s. while Arminians say a Christian can fall away from grace. Paul was absolutely assured of his salvation whereas the author of Hebrews says that falling away from grace is possible (ch. 6 v. 4). Paul knew he was already saved, but he kept working hard for the Gospel because he was neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian.

Grandpa · Mar 1, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

So you just limited who Christs death is applied to.

You don't understand that you just did that?

Christ died for the sins of the whole world of people who Believe in Him.

Christs death is SUFFICIENT for the sins of the whole world. But doesn't apply to the whole world.

Surely you understand that if Christ has died for the sins of the whole world without exception then there is nothing to be saved from? Everyone is already in a perfect, non-sin imputed to, state.

Or maybe you don't.

Chester · Mar 1, 2019

obedienttogod said:

I have a simpler answer than yours -

The person who is believing in Jesus is saved and has assurance of salvation and the one who is not believing is not saved. That is what the Bible says and I am satisfied to leave it that.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
That's how great was His mission.

To avail ourselves of this great gift.....
We must accept it.

Not all do.

Grandpa · Mar 2, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

So let's see if we can untangle this.

The Lord Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But it doesn't count until the individual people accept it.

So, effectively, the Lord Jesus died for the sins of all the people in the world that would accept His Death for the remission of their sin.

Its funny when people believe the same thing as Calvinism states but for some reason they think Calvinism is a dirty word so they must fight against it.

Its ok to let God be Sovereign... lol

Grandpa · Mar 2, 2019

Can we eliminate the divide between Calvinism and Arminianism?

Its not looking too good so far...

GodsGrace101 · Mar 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

Are you saying that calvinists believe a person chooses God and God does not "elect" that person?

You need to go back and study calvinism brother.
There is some confusion here.

And it's not with me.

Chester · Mar 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

Close!

but I would say Jesus died effectively for the sins of the all the people of the world, but not all men/women made in the image of God have appropriated that free gift.

garee · Mar 2, 2019

Marcelo said:

I have never thoroughly researched this subject and my simplistic view of it is this:

Total depravity

Calvinists say we’ve been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness, and Arminians say this helplessness is only partial. Well, everything we have comes from God and therefore if we already had spiritual assets before conversion that means God was already working on us. Besides, it makes no difference whether a person has spiritual assets or not before God's call because they will always need the Lord anyway.

Unconditional election

Calvinists say human beings are unable to choose by themselves to follow God, while Arminians think otherwise. I myself think God chooses us and we choose Him, and so neither side is completely right or completely wrong.

Unlimited Atonement

Calvinists say Jesus died for the elect only and Arminians say He died for all. Again, neither side is completely right or completely wrong. God wants everyone to be saved, but He knows that only a minority (the elect)will accept His whole truth. God is an infinite Being and we can’t understand this apparent contradiction.

Irresistible Grace

Calvinists say God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminians argue that it can be resisted.

We have free will to accept or to reject grace, but God knows beforehand who will accept it or not because (again) He is an infinite being.

Perseverance of the Saints

Calvinists say o.s.a.s. while Arminians say a Christian can fall away from grace. Paul was absolutely assured of his salvation whereas the author of Hebrews says that falling away from grace is possible (ch. 6 v. 4). Paul knew he was already saved, but he kept working hard for the Gospel because he was neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian.

Grace is resistable to those who hold their personal pride a higher value .But faith is the gift to those who previously had none.

John146 · Mar 2, 2019

Sovereign = a word used by calvinists to let other calvinists know that they are Calvinists too😀

NayborBear · Mar 2, 2019

My $0.02?
Of all the men with their doctrines concerning "the Church?"
Calvin's is the closest.
Closer then Arminians.
And, the Arminians would realize that also. Should they "work out their salvation with fear and trembling", to that/those levels, of "Spiritual maturity." Or, "perfection."

Grandpa · Mar 2, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

I guess you'll have to go back and try to read what was actually said. Maybe then you will be able to understand.

I don't understand how you can get that a Calvinist believes a person chooses God and God doesn't elect that person from what I wrote.

But I see why you would give up your original argument and try to move on to something else that you feel is wrong about Calvinism.

Grandpa · Mar 2, 2019

Chester said:

You don't understand what you yourself are saying.

The Lord Jesus has made everything white. Except those who haven't believed are still black.

So the conclusion is that the Lord hasn't made everything white. Only those who believe are made white.

But then you say, no, He has made everything white.

So then I ask, so that YOU can see your folly, EVEN unbelievers are made white?

NO, silly, that is illogical, you say. Unbelievers are still black.

I know that's what I've been saying. That's what Calvinism says.

Grandpa · Mar 2, 2019

John146 said:

I didn't mean to scare anyone.

But it is a way to show arminians and other workers for salvation whose side I am on.

I can't tell you how many legalists will adamantly state that Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. And then they will tell you all the ways you can lose that salvation. Well if you can lose salvation and it takes your work to keep it then you are working for salvation. Not sure why people try to twist everything to mean something other than what it obviously means. Maybe because it is too easy to show their false view with scripture?

Grandpa · Mar 2, 2019

garee said:

Can a man dying of thirst resist water?

Can a man dying of hunger resist food?

No. Not anymore than a man seeing his spiritual death can resist Grace. Not unless he's even dumber than I was. And I don't see how that would be possible... lol

GodsGrace101 · Mar 2, 2019

Grandpa said:

Whatever brother.
Maybe I didn't understand you...

Let me make this clear:

In the calvinist theology:

GOD CHOOSES THOSE THAT WILL BE SAVED
and those that will go to hell.

Jesus sacrifice was ONLY FOR THE CHOSEN BY GOD...Also incorrectly known as the ELECT...since thta's not what the Elect is referring to.

MAN IS BORN TOTALLY DEPRAVED....not just with the sin nature as all of the rest of Christiandom believes.

GOD FORCES MAN TO ACCEPT HIS GRACE.....
so,,,,man has no free will ---- very unbiblical indeed.

THE SAINTS WILL PERSEVERE TILL THE END.
I love this one. It means you won't know till the day of your death whether or not you persevered!

How's that?
Did I understand now?

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