Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?
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This is generally the leap of illogic that Calvinists present. But the Bible is crystal clear. No one (including the Calvinists) is saved unless they obey the Gospel -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). But they have not all obeyed the Gospel (Rom 10:16), means that those have not been saved.
So while Christ died for the sins of the whole world (without exception) only those who receive Him with repentance and faith are saved.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
So while Christ died for the sins of the whole world (without exception) only those who receive Him with repentance and faith are saved.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)
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Hi again Nehemiah6, to a 1st Century Jew (like the Apostle John or Jesus) "the whole world" really meant two worlds, Jewish and Greek (Jew and Gentile). So when Jesus said that, "God so loved the world......." in John 3:16, His Jewish disciples and followers, who already knew that God intended to save Jewish believers, heard something brand new, revolutionary in fact, that He also intended to save non-Jews as well, believers from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
As for the Bible's teaching that God commanded all men everywhere to repent, that's hardly an exclusive free will/Arminian teaching as Calvinists not only fully embrace Acts 17:30, they understand what it means in the very same way that Arminians do. Both camps also acknowledge that all men will not choose to follow this command
I like this thread (even though I am not fully onboard with all of the propositions and conclusions made in the OP) because it is such a rarity to find one that's looking for common ground (or new ground altogether, for both camps) on a topic that is, historically, the most divisive subject in Protestant Christendom, predestination. It's kind of refreshing actually, as I have had my fill over the years of reading the endless debates, name-calling, intentional misrepresentations and misunderstandings .. that end up changing no one's mind .. save perhaps the non-Christian seekers lurking in the background who look at all of the bickering we do and surely begin to wonder whether or not Christianity is really worth pursuing.
Quite frankly, even if taking sides ends up being the main thrust of this thread (instead of finding common ground), I hope we are able to make it a respectful/civil discussion, at least for awhile, instead of what it normally ends up being almost immediately, an ugly, unloving and unproductive debate.
~Deut
As for the Bible's teaching that God commanded all men everywhere to repent, that's hardly an exclusive free will/Arminian teaching as Calvinists not only fully embrace Acts 17:30, they understand what it means in the very same way that Arminians do. Both camps also acknowledge that all men will not choose to follow this command
I like this thread (even though I am not fully onboard with all of the propositions and conclusions made in the OP) because it is such a rarity to find one that's looking for common ground (or new ground altogether, for both camps) on a topic that is, historically, the most divisive subject in Protestant Christendom, predestination. It's kind of refreshing actually, as I have had my fill over the years of reading the endless debates, name-calling, intentional misrepresentations and misunderstandings .. that end up changing no one's mind .. save perhaps the non-Christian seekers lurking in the background who look at all of the bickering we do and surely begin to wonder whether or not Christianity is really worth pursuing.
Quite frankly, even if taking sides ends up being the main thrust of this thread (instead of finding common ground), I hope we are able to make it a respectful/civil discussion, at least for awhile, instead of what it normally ends up being almost immediately, an ugly, unloving and unproductive debate.
~Deut
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Hi again Nehemiah6, to a 1st Century Jew (like the Apostle John or Jesus) "the whole world" really meant two worlds, Jewish and Greek (Jew and Gentile). So when Jesus said that, "God so loved the world......." in John 3:16, His Jewish disciples and followers, who already knew that God intended to save Jewish believers, heard something brand new, revolutionary in fact, that He also intended to save non-Jews as well, believers from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
As for the Bible's teaching that God commanded all men everywhere to repent, that's hardly an exclusive free will/Arminian teaching as Calvinists not only fully embrace Acts 17:30, they understand what it means in the very same way that Arminians do. Both camps also acknowledge that all men will not choose to follow this command
I like this thread (even though I am not fully onboard with all of the propositions and conclusions made in the OP) because it is such a rarity to find one that's looking for common ground (or new ground altogether, for both camps) on a topic that is, historically, the most divisive subject in Protestant Christendom, predestination. It's kind of refreshing actually, as I have had my fill over the years of reading the endless debates, name-calling, intentional misrepresentations and misunderstandings .. that end up changing no one's mind .. save perhaps the non-Christian seekers lurking in the background who look at all of the bickering we do and surely begin to wonder whether or not Christianity is really worth pursuing.
Quite frankly, even if taking sides ends up being the main thrust of this thread (instead of finding common ground), I hope we are able to make it a respectful/civil discussion, at least for awhile, instead of what it normally ends up being almost immediately, an ugly, unloving and unproductive debate.
~Deut
As for the Bible's teaching that God commanded all men everywhere to repent, that's hardly an exclusive free will/Arminian teaching as Calvinists not only fully embrace Acts 17:30, they understand what it means in the very same way that Arminians do. Both camps also acknowledge that all men will not choose to follow this command
I like this thread (even though I am not fully onboard with all of the propositions and conclusions made in the OP) because it is such a rarity to find one that's looking for common ground (or new ground altogether, for both camps) on a topic that is, historically, the most divisive subject in Protestant Christendom, predestination. It's kind of refreshing actually, as I have had my fill over the years of reading the endless debates, name-calling, intentional misrepresentations and misunderstandings .. that end up changing no one's mind .. save perhaps the non-Christian seekers lurking in the background who look at all of the bickering we do and surely begin to wonder whether or not Christianity is really worth pursuing.
Quite frankly, even if taking sides ends up being the main thrust of this thread (instead of finding common ground), I hope we are able to make it a respectful/civil discussion, at least for awhile, instead of what it normally ends up being almost immediately, an ugly, unloving and unproductive debate.
~Deut
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All men are born without the born again faith of Christ needed to hear God so that then they could believe God if God applies His faith to the hearts and so that they can do what he says.
God is Spirit, he is not Jewish .he is not a man as us.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Philipian2;13
Remove the flesh between the two camps and the two camps will come closer. Bottom line what does a person do with the literal flesh . Compare the Jew to the gentile the gap increases.
Pit or even compare the Jew against gentile. a person create dispensations that are not there and violate the commandments not to wrestles against flesh and blood the things seen the temporal .
God is Spirit, he is not Jewish .he is not a man as us.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Philipian2;13
Remove the flesh between the two camps and the two camps will come closer. Bottom line what does a person do with the literal flesh . Compare the Jew to the gentile the gap increases.
Pit or even compare the Jew against gentile. a person create dispensations that are not there and violate the commandments not to wrestles against flesh and blood the things seen the temporal .
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If Christ has died for the sins of the whole world (without exception) then there is nothing to be saved FROM.
If you say Christs Sacrifice is SUFFICIENT for the sins of the whole world then absolutely I would agree.
If Christ died for the sins of the whole world (without exception) then why would you put conditions on it? How can you put conditions on it?
You can't. There is no more sin in the world to be cursed from or condemned by, if Christ has died for the sins of the whole world (without exception).
This is not a leap of illogic. This is the simple conclusion that must come from what you are saying.
If you say Christs Sacrifice is SUFFICIENT for the sins of the whole world then absolutely I would agree.
If Christ died for the sins of the whole world (without exception) then why would you put conditions on it? How can you put conditions on it?
You can't. There is no more sin in the world to be cursed from or condemned by, if Christ has died for the sins of the whole world (without exception).
This is not a leap of illogic. This is the simple conclusion that must come from what you are saying.
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That is not close to what that statement means. That is what people who don't understand want it to mean. People who think it is by their choice and their decisions that save them and keep them saved.
The sacrifice of Jesus is SUFFICIENT for the sins of the whole world.
If the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world then everyone is saved and there is no reason to have any theology or evangelism.
You are effectively saying that peoples choices are more important and carry more weight than the actual work of the Lord Jesus.
If the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world then why is it important that people believe that? Because it would be a sin not to?
Its either a fact and people don't have to worry about anything they do or believe or its a GIFT that is given to ONLY Believers.
IT CAN'T BE BOTH. If it is only for believers then the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of the elect.
The sacrifice of Jesus is SUFFICIENT for the sins of the whole world.
If the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world then everyone is saved and there is no reason to have any theology or evangelism.
You are effectively saying that peoples choices are more important and carry more weight than the actual work of the Lord Jesus.
If the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world then why is it important that people believe that? Because it would be a sin not to?
Its either a fact and people don't have to worry about anything they do or believe or its a GIFT that is given to ONLY Believers.
IT CAN'T BE BOTH. If it is only for believers then the Lord Jesus has died for the sins of the elect.
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The gospel has nothing to do with the flesh of any nation. The word Israel used over two thousand times has nothing to do with flesh and blood...... as if we did wrestles against other nations or were supported by the flesh as some sort of confirmation. ..
Israel not according to the flesh typifies all who have been born again as those who do have the Spirit of Christ. If any man of any flesh has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply are still in their sin and have not wrestled with God as did Jacob before his name was changed to represent the born again change the Holy Spirit worked in Israel the new creature. Previously using the word Jacob . meaning the deceiver.
Israel a word with no other meaning added means "A person has the Spirit of Christ in them but the power is not of us after the flesh."
Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Isreal means power with God and with men, and have prevailed.
If we have followed after the Spirit of Christ who works in us to both will and do his good purpose, then we have prevailed with men and God. .
Not all Israel are born again Christians, the new name he named His bride previously calling her Israel or a Jew, are one inwardly. just as all Christians .
Words have meanings aplied.Change the meaning of one word change the direction of the gospel
Israel not according to the flesh typifies all who have been born again as those who do have the Spirit of Christ. If any man of any flesh has not the born again Spirit of Christ they simply are still in their sin and have not wrestled with God as did Jacob before his name was changed to represent the born again change the Holy Spirit worked in Israel the new creature. Previously using the word Jacob . meaning the deceiver.
Israel a word with no other meaning added means "A person has the Spirit of Christ in them but the power is not of us after the flesh."
Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Isreal means power with God and with men, and have prevailed.
If we have followed after the Spirit of Christ who works in us to both will and do his good purpose, then we have prevailed with men and God. .
Not all Israel are born again Christians, the new name he named His bride previously calling her Israel or a Jew, are one inwardly. just as all Christians .
Words have meanings aplied.Change the meaning of one word change the direction of the gospel
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Yes Jewish unbelievers are simply used to represent "no faith" Those who will not hear the word of God and believe God as God works in them to make it possible to believe.....to represent all of mankind. It is never directly about the flesh of any man .
The sign against the unbelieving Jew applies to anyone .God is no respecter of person as if the sign only pertained to Jewish flesh as those who do make the word of God to no effect through the oral traditions of men .like in Jerimiah 44;16-17. They said. We refuse to hear the word of God we will rather do whatsoever comes from our own mouths and see no evil whatsoever in doing so .( the mark of the beast) and yet for all that will they not hear . They receive no sabbath rest which could come if they had faith.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthains 14:21-22
The this people again is respect to the whole world of those who have no faith..
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Yes the "all" is in respect to the words as many. As many as the holy Spirit has given the faith to believe as he works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure.... they will believe as he applies the power of His living word to their newly created hearts. Not one more or one less.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
It would be like going into a pickle factory with a order. And the person says I will take the section that says Kohser .I will take all of the many you do have that I have elected..
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
It would be like going into a pickle factory with a order. And the person says I will take the section that says Kohser .I will take all of the many you do have that I have elected..
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
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here is an unofficial brief about arminianism
They believe in original sin, sin nature and all that. But they believe in prevenient grace, that God is drawing people in and people have to respond positively to it and then they are saved.
They believe Jesus died for everyone, but nobody is actually saved unless they choose to receive Jesus
They believe God's grace is resistable
they believe you can lose your salvation
As you can see, its basically calvinism in reverse aside from the first point of the TULIP!
They believe in original sin, sin nature and all that. But they believe in prevenient grace, that God is drawing people in and people have to respond positively to it and then they are saved.
They believe Jesus died for everyone, but nobody is actually saved unless they choose to receive Jesus
They believe God's grace is resistable
they believe you can lose your salvation
As you can see, its basically calvinism in reverse aside from the first point of the TULIP!
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I think Jesus is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but here is a brief about both doctrines:
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I would think it shows the source of faith was not a work of their own selves . But God working in them to both will and perform his good pleasure.
Previously like all of mankind born spiritually deaf, blind,dumb and lame before the Spirit gave some the hearing of faith .They had "no faith" not little like the disciples had but none that comes from believing God not seen,,,,, as a froward nation of unconverted natural man Its why they gloried in the word as the source of glory .and not their own minds.
Again their joy glorified the source of faith belonging to the God who spoke it, as prophecy . Faith the light of glory worked.
Deuteronomy 32:19-21 King James Version (KJV) And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Previously like all of mankind born spiritually deaf, blind,dumb and lame before the Spirit gave some the hearing of faith .They had "no faith" not little like the disciples had but none that comes from believing God not seen,,,,, as a froward nation of unconverted natural man Its why they gloried in the word as the source of glory .and not their own minds.
Again their joy glorified the source of faith belonging to the God who spoke it, as prophecy . Faith the light of glory worked.
Deuteronomy 32:19-21 King James Version (KJV) And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
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