Not By Works

[FollowHisSteps]

Where did I reference works salvation?
I think you find that I did not.
You came across as VCO was point scoring as a result of giving his testimony.
Whether you meant that or not that is how you came across.
Thanks for the compliment.

Hi Bill,

After I had typed the note, I read it and thought, oh no, I have confused two issues.
I often do this in my mind, and the words do not explain well enough the points I want to make.

So unfortunately, it came out wrong. And I cannot correct it on this media.
So I suspected it was being read in a way I did not intend.

And my friend, this also demonstrates a weakness of this arena.
If we read in too much, and do not think the best of others, we can end up in very dark places.

And unfortunately I can be very harsh on some of my observations. I mean them partly in jest,
and partly like the old jester, you can say things that are true, and people laugh.

Life is not one thing, and we all are polarised to a degree, including myself.
Jesus has always challenged me about my polarisation and the need to connect things and
make bridges and walk on them. The bible is more vast than any man can ever truly know.

So part of my approach is to challenge, stir up, question, reflect, inspire, encourage, shake,
and not let myself stay still. For God is a God of change, creativity and life, Praise His Name.

So I wish you well, and trust that you find blessing in His word and life today, Amen.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill,

After I had typed the note, I read it and thought, oh no, I have confused two issues.
I often do this in my mind, and the words do not explain well enough the points I want to make.

So unfortunately, it came out wrong. And I cannot correct it on this media.
So I suspected it was being read in a way I did not intend.

And my friend, this also demonstrates a weakness of this arena.
If we read in too much, and do not think the best of others, we can end up in very dark places.

And unfortunately I can be very harsh on some of my observations. I mean them partly in jest,
and partly like the old jester, you can say things that are true, and people laugh.

Life is not one thing, and we all are polarised to a degree, including myself.
Jesus has always challenged me about my polarisation and the need to connect things and
make bridges and walk on them. The bible is more vast than any man can ever truly know.

So part of my approach is to challenge, stir up, question, reflect, inspire, encourage, shake,
and not let myself stay still. For God is a God of change, creativity and life, Praise His Name.

So I wish you well, and trust that you find blessing in His word and life today, Amen.

Yeh it does happen.
We only see words and not the intent.
I'm sure if we really knew people then the true intent and jesting etc would be understood.

That being said we do need to careful on how we post here.

And yes I'm still learning.

God bless your day.
I going out with my wife for a walk.
Probably go to Chichester.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Is God wild? Is God dangerous?

Some believers say fear is evil.
God lets His people die at the hands of sinners.
God will send a prophet, and if he breaks the Lords word, the prophet will be judged and sometimes killed.

If God sends an angel to you, and you contradict him, you can be silenced.
If you lie to God when the Holy Spirit is working in power, you can die.

Everyone dies. Hell is the place of destruction, eternal torment.

God is wild, yet in this wildness, power and authority is justice, love and truth.
So do not kid yourself He does not see ones heart and everything we are doing.
Only those who walk in His love, grace and will, will not fall under His judgement.

But you have to believe He can change you, else you will be a sinner until destruction.

I leave out the verses here, to see how many know the scriptures that speak these sentiments.

 

[mailmandan]

Our righteous works have nothing to do with us being born again; our initial salvation by faith.

Initially saved by faith but ultimately saved by works is "type 2 works salvation" which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

Our obedience to the truth, which are His commandments, and His doctrine have everything to do with us receiving eternal life on the Day of Judgement.

Our obedience to the truth/His commandments/His doctrine has everything to do with demonstrating that we already know Him (1 John 2:3; 3:9-10) and already have eternal life (John 5:24). Obedience/works is the FRUIT of salvation but NOT THE ROOT of it.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Here read it carefully so you won’t be so confused about our initial salvation and the eternal life or not on Judgement Day.
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

You continue to read these passages of scripture through the lens of works righteousness. As I have already explained to you numerous times before, if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, then one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works (as demonstrated by you). However, as you read and study these passages, it's absolutely critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of believers procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the FRUIT, but NOT THE ROOT of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; 10:1-4; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[GodsGrace101]

@mailmandan
What'r you sad about?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Initially saved by faith but ultimately saved by works is "type 2 works salvation" which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

Our obedience to the truth/His commandments/His doctrine has everything to do with demonstrating that we already know Him (1 John 2:3; 3:9-10) and already have eternal life (John 5:24). Obedience/works is the FRUIT of salvation but NOT THE ROOT of it.

You continue to read these passages of scripture through the lens of works righteousness. As I have already explained to you numerous times before, if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, then one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works (as demonstrated by you). However, as you read and study these passages, it's absolutely critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of believers procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the FRUIT, but NOT THE ROOT of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; 10:1-4; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Initially saved by faith but ultimately saved by works is "type 2 works salvation" which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

This sounds like double speak.
Either we are cleansed, holy people of God or we are not.

Listen to Paul

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 3:13

If we commune with the living God and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit,
we must be transformed and different.

If we have no difference or transformation, then God has not worked in
us and we are lost, believing in vain. It is really this simple.

 

[mailmandan]

Initially saved by faith but ultimately saved by works is "type 2 works salvation" which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

This sounds like double speak.
Either we are cleansed, holy people of God or we are not.

It's not double speak. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Listen to Paul

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 3:13

Jude 1:24 - Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

If we commune with the living God and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit,
we must be transformed and different.

If we have no difference or transformation, then God has not worked in
us and we are lost, believing in vain. It is really this simple.

Must be transformed or will be? Of course those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit have been transformed and are different. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Those who do not believe the gospel and have not received the Holy Spirit are lost no matter how religious they may appear to be and self moral-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Every single born again Christian will stand before the King of kings, on that great Day, to be judged according to our deeds.


Here is who will receive eternal life -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Here is who will receive God’s wrath -

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Every single born again Christian will stand before the King of kings, on that great Day, to be judged according to our deeds.

Works will be evidences for or against a man being in a state of righteousness. Hence the descriptive language of everyone who does good and everyone who does evil. In addition to receiving eternal life, every single born again Christian will receive rewards and loss of rewards based on their works (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

Here is who will receive eternal life - eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

DESCRIPTIVE of believers. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10).

Here is who will receive God’s wrath - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

 

[FollowHisSteps]

It's not double speak. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Jude 1:24 - Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

Must be transformed or will be? Of course those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit have been transformed and are different. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Those who do not believe the gospel and have not received the Holy Spirit are lost no matter how religious they may appear to be and self moral-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.

Hi mmd,

It is possible confusion between different people and their way of expressing faith can occur.
Some will say, faith saves, ie being a believer, but I must be as good as I can, or I am not acceptable.
It can then become appearing to be good while not having the reality within.

Another says no faith is everything, and what is within does not matter, because it is only
faith that saves.

But deeper still it is actually the relationship, the struggle within and the obedience through
repentance and faith that keeps us true.

I have spoken to people in all 3 of these positions.
My experience is only the last who are in the struggle know the reality.

So your language seems to be forcing people into boxes and assuming they do not understand the basics of walking with Jesus. For me that is a mistake. And why would people desire to do this?
Are you interested in walking in the path of God?

 

[cv5]

It's not double speak. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Jude 1:24 - Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

Must be transformed or will be? Of course those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit have been transformed and are different. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Those who do not believe the gospel and have not received the Holy Spirit are lost no matter how religious they may appear to be and self moral-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.

Well spoken Sir.

 

[Hevosmies]

@mailmandan brother is that you in the avatar?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

MMD,

HOW do we redeem the purchased possession?
Is there a method to this?

Now...you know I already know the answer...I just came upon this and the sealing is much misunderstood.

It does sound good though.....

Do we have any part in this....or do we get zapped with a sealing and that's it?

 

[Hevosmies]

MMD,

HOW do we redeem the purchased possession?
Is there a method to this?

Now...you know I already know the answer...I just came upon this and the sealing is much misunderstood.

It does sound good though.....

Do we have any part in this....or do we get zapped with a sealing and that's it?

I understand the redeeming of the purchased possession to be the RAPTURE.

When the resurrection occurs

 

[cv5]

Every single born again Christian will stand before the King of kings, on that great Day, to be judged according to our deeds.

This of course being the palpable outgrowth of the Perseverance of the Saints, itself being a gift from above.


Here is who will receive eternal life -

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Here is who will receive God’s wrath -

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

JPT

 

[cv5]

MMD,

HOW do we redeem the purchased possession?
Is there a method to this?

Now...you know I already know the answer...I just came upon this and the sealing is much misunderstood.

It does sound good though.....

Do we have any part in this....or do we get zapped with a sealing and that's it?

Just remember this: God is the Prime Mover, Creator, Originator.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's not double speak. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Jude 1:24 - Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

Must be transformed or will be? Of course those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit have been transformed and are different. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Those who do not believe the gospel and have not received the Holy Spirit are lost no matter how religious they may appear to be and self moral-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration.

I don't know.....
You're saying EVERYONE who thinks they're born again are transformed?

I'll list the fruit of the Holy Spirit again.....
Galatians 5:22.....

FAITHFULNESS
SELF-CONTROL
PATIENCE
GOODNESS
GENTLENESS
JOY
KINDNESS
PEACE
LOVE

I venture to say that not all that say they are born again seem to exhibit these qualities.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Just remember this: God is the Prime Mover, Creator, Originator.

Theology 101.
Care to say more?

 

[GodsGrace101]

@mailmandan brother is that you in the avatar?

He can't be that cute!

This guy is in the avatar.....

• 

Who is he???
You may really not know,,,,not being a NEW YORKER!

 

[gb9]

I don't know.....
You're saying EVERYONE who thinks they're born again are transformed?

I'll list the fruit of the Holy Spirit again.....
Galatians 5:22.....

FAITHFULNESS
SELF-CONTROL
PATIENCE
GOODNESS
GENTLENESS
JOY
KINDNESS
PEACE
LOVE

I venture to say that not all that say they are born again seem to exhibit these qualities.

ah, but see, consistently manifesting these fruits is a result of salvation.

the Holy Sprit does not reside in non-believers.

believe and receive. not do to get.