Jesus is not coming back. He already did in 70 A.D.

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delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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lol, yea count me in!!!,,, I noticed a long time back that the more I listened to camp A they had some good points but then drifted off into the foggy grey area,lol.. Camp B does too but also drifts off into the grey area. Camp C yep and D do too so I joined the outside the camps camp and I'm no longer ashamed to say things camp A,B,C, ect. regard as sensitive areas.
I'm surprised Locutus hasn't converted you to the FP view by now. He is trying to help you out! :p

The problem I see with all the other views; amill, postmill, futurist, partial-preterist, is that they all believe in a future "second coming" of Christ, a resurrection and judgment, and a new heavens and earth but the Bible says these things happened in the first century. It's too bad that 98% of Christians hold to one of these eschatologies and, at least in my opinion, the Bible teaches they already happened.

In the end we can say preterist,amill,dispy,futurist ect. all the day long when we should have kept it all simple like "Christian"
Hopefully, one day, Christians will come to a more unified understanding of the Scriptures and we won't have to be so polemic.
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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Are any of the things he said in the Olivet discourse the things that were sealed until after he was slain and found worthy to loose them?
I'd have to do some side by side reading to answer that.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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I'm surprised Locutus hasn't converted you to the FP view by now. He is trying to help you out! :p

The problem I see with all the other views; amill, postmill, futurist, partial-preterist, is that they all believe in a future "second coming" of Christ, a resurrection and judgment, and a new heavens and earth but the Bible says these things happened in the first century. It's too bad that 98% of Christians hold to one of these eschatologies and, at least in my opinion, the Bible teaches they already happened.



Hopefully, one day, Christians will come to a more unified understanding of the Scriptures and we won't have to be so polemic.

lol, he's not,and fully aware why...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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The problem I see with all the other views; amill, postmill, futurist, partial-preterist, is that they all believe in a future "second coming" of Christ, a resurrection and judgment, and a new heavens and earth but the Bible says these things happened in the first century. It's too bad that 98% of Christians hold to one of these eschatologies and, at least in my opinion, the Bible teaches they already happened.
"teaches they already happened." Do you mean, in 70ad??

Because I've addressed the SEQUENCE / chronology issues in the Olivet Discourse, but have not seen your response to it yet (if you have one):

[quoting my post again]


The "SEE" then "FLEE" is indeed following the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]" in Matthew 24.

But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (and then [vv.12-24a] describes the 70ad events which must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]/and 1Th5:2-3 is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")]

so...

in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs" [which is Matt24:4-8/Mt13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and then followed by much more...].

Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)

[end of that post]
____________

Do you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11??

(and that verse 12 following that section says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE"?? and that the next 12 or so verses describe the 70ad events that the text is saying must come "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs??)
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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"teaches they already happened." Do you mean, in 70ad??

Because I've addressed the SEQUENCE / chronology issues in the Olivet Discourse, but have not seen your response to it yet (if you have one):

[quoting my post again]


The "SEE" then "FLEE" is indeed following the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]" in Matthew 24.

But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (and then [vv.12-24a] describes the 70ad events which must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]/and 1Th5:2-3 is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")]

so...

in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs" [which is Matt24:4-8/Mt13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and then followed by much more...].

Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)

[end of that post]
____________

Do you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11??

(and that verse 12 following that section says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE"?? and that the next 12 or so verses describe the 70ad events that the text is saying must come "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs??)
No offense meant here - but you need to format your posts more clearly as they resemble a flow chart done with hieroglyphics.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Why won't he convert to FP? I hope it isn't just because of Rev 13 because that doesn't make sense to me. :unsure:
Soandso needs to reconcile the mark and the buy and sell verses and he believes present day "Israel" is the image of old Israel/Jerusalem as the beast - if I follow his thinking correctly.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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Do you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11?? (and that verse 12 following that section says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE"?? and that the next 12 or so verses describe the 70ad events that the text is saying must come "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs??)
I agree with you that Matt 24: 4-8, Mark 13: 5-8 and Luke 21: 8-11 are talking about the same things.

I also agree that the next 12 verses in Luke describe 70 A.D.

Where I disagree is that only part of these things were fulfilled in 70 A.D. Jesus said all of them would happen to "this generation". I believe Jesus was referring to His generation because He always uses it that way.

If you say only "some" happened in 70 A.D. that only leaves "some" for the alleged "final generation". That means neither Jesus' generation or a final generation could fulfill ALL these things. Jesus said it would be ALL in "this generation".

Since we see that the disciples are being brought before rulers and killed we know that "some" happened in His generation. Since Jesus used the word generation only in reference to His contemporaries then ALL those things happened in His generation. Otherwise, He was not accurate.

Jesus says in Matt 24: 30-31, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He says after that in verse 34 it would happen in "this generation". That can only be His generation since we see the disciples being killed and ALL things must happen in that generation.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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lol, read Wars 2,,,,
Soandso needs to reconcile the mark and the buy and sell verses and he believes present day "Israel" is the image of old Israel/Jerusalem as the beast - if I follow his thinking correctly.
Let me ask you these questions iamsoandso: If Revelation 13 wasn't in the Bible would you be FP? Do you believe in a literal/physical new heavens and earth? Future judgment and resurrection? Future second coming of Christ? Curious to know your answers.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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lol, read Wars 2,,,,
Let me propose some possible solutions to the MotB and "buying and selling".

From my reading of Revelation it looks like whoever doesn't accept Jesus automatically receives the MotB and worships the beast. That would be all the apostate Jews and any unbelievers. They are contrasted with those who believe in Jesus and are sealed in Rev 14: 1.

As far as buying and selling goes, if you were a Christian, you don't "buy or sell" the stuff the world offers. You are about Jesus. You don't love the world or the things of the world. I think the buying and selling may have a spiritual application just like the MotB does. The whole thing is about who you worship. It's a spiritual thing and not a literal/physical buying and selling.

It's the book of Revelation and the first verse of the book tells you it is encoded in signs and symbols and don't take it too literally. I think you are doing that with the MotB and the buying and selling.

My recommendation would be don't throw out FP when it has dozens of clear verses that all point to the same time and fulfillment because of an obscure apocalyptic passage in Rev 13. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What say ye?
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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This is from James Stuart Russell's Parousia (Pdf copy so the format is not great - Russell is not FP


And he causeth all, both small and
great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in
their right hand, or on their forehead; and that no men
might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of
the beast, or the number of his name
.’

If our conclusions respecting the identity of the first beast are correct, it
ought not to be difficult to discover who is intended by the second beast. It
will be observed that in many respects there is a strong resemblance
between them: they are of the same nature, though one is supreme and the
other subordinate; but there are also points of difference. It will be proper,
however, in this case also, to bring into one view the various particular
characteristics which assist to identify the individual intended:---

1. The second beast rises up from the land.
2. He has only two horns, and they are like a lamb’s.
3. He speaks like a dragon.
4. He is clothed with the delegated authority of the first beast.
5. He compels men to pay homage, or worship, to the beast.
6. He pretends to exercise miraculous powers.
7. He rules with tyrannical force and cruelty.
8. He excludes from civil rights all who refuse abject submission to
the beast.

Looking at these characteristics it becomes at once perfectly clear that we
must seek the antitype to this symbolic figure in a man kindred character
with the monster Nero himself. He is evidently the alter ego of the
emperor, though his proportions are drawn on a smaller scale.

1. His rising out of the land, while the first beast rises out of the sea,
denotes that the second beast is a domestic or home authority,
ruling in Judea; while the other is a foreign power.
2. His having two horns like a lamb, while the first beast has ten,
denotes that his sphere of government is small, and his power
limited, compared with the other.
3. That he speaks as a dragon, or serpent, denotes his crafty and
deceitful character.
4. His being clothed with the authority of the first beast indicates that
he is the official representative and delegate of Nero in Judea.

At this point the individual is revealed to us. He can be no other than the
Roman procurator or governor of Judea under Nero, and the particular
governor must be sought at or near the outbreak of the Jewish war; and
here the history of the time throws a flood of light upon the inquiry.
There are two names which may vie with each other for the bad preeminence
of the original of this picture of the second beast,---Albinus and
Gessius Florus. Each was a monster of tyranny and cruelty, but the latter
outdid the former. Before Gessius Florus came into office the Jews
counted Albinus the worst governor who had ever ground them by his
oppression. After Gessius Florus came they thought Albinus almost a
virtuous man in comparison. Florus was a miscreant worthy to stand by
the side of Nero: a fit servant of such a master.

The reader will find in the pages of Josephus the story of the enormous
and incredible profligacy, fraud, treachery, and tyranny of this last and
worst of all the governors who represented the Imperial authority in Judea,
and will see how the historian traces to the misrule of this infamous man
the ruin that fell upon the nation.

It was his intolerable and Draconic
oppression that goaded the unhappy Jews into rebellion, and was the
proximate cause of the war which ended in the utter overthrow of
Jerusalem and her people. Josephus, indeed, has not preserved all the
facts, which, if we had them, would no doubt vividly illustrate all the
particulars in the apocalyptic portraiture of the second beast. But we
scarcely need them.

Force, fraud, cruelty, imposture, tyranny, are
attributes which too certainly might be predicated of such a procurator as
Florus. Perhaps the traits most difficult to verify are those which relate to
the compulsory enforcement of homage to the emperor’s statue and the
assumption of miraculous pretensions. Yet even here all we know is in
favour of the description being true to the letter.

Dean Milman observes:---
‘The image of the beast is clearly the statue of the
emperor;’ and he adds: ‘The test by which the martyrs were
tried was to adore the emperor, to offer incense before his
statue, and to invoke the gods.’ (See Review of Newman’s
Development of Christian Doctrine.)

Dean Alford’s remarks are also deserving of notice:---

‘The Seer is now describing facts which history
substantiates to us in their literal fulfillment. The image of
Caesar was everywhere that which men were made to
worship: it was before this that the Christian martyrs were
brought to the test, and put to death if they refused the act
of adoration . . .

‘If it be said, as an objection to this, that it is not an image
of the emperor, but of the best itself, which is spoken of,
the answer is very simple,---that as the Seer himself, in
chap. xvii. 11, does not hesitate to identify one of the
"seven kings" with the beast itself, so we may fairly assume
that the image of the beast, for the time being, would be the
image of the reigning emperor.’

To the same effect are the following observations of Dean Howson, which
are the more striking as being written without any reference to the passage
before us:---

‘The image of the emperor was at that time [under the
Empire] the object of religious reverence: he was a deity on
earth (‘Das aequa potestas’---Juv. iv. 71), and the worship
paid to him was a real worship. It is a striking thought that
in those times (setting aside effete forms of religion) the
only two genuine worships in the civilised world were the
worship of a Tiberius or a Nero, on the one hand, and the
worship of Christ on the other.’

We are now in a position to ask the verdict of every candid and judicial
mind on the question of identity which has been argued, as well as the
complete congruity and correspondence in all points between the symbols
in the vision and the historical personages whom, in our opinion, they
represent.

The time, the place, the scene, the circumstances, and the
dramatis personae are all in full accord with the requirements of the
Apocalypse. It is the eve of the great catastrophe, the final ruin of the
Judaic polity. The predicted persecution of the people of God, which was
to usher in the end, has broken out. A terrible triumvirate of evil is in
league against Christ and His cause. The dragon, the beast from the sea,
and the beast from the land,---Satan, the Emperor, and the Roman
procurator, are in active hostility against ‘the woman and the remnant of
her seed.’ Their time, however, is short; the hour of retribution is at hand;
and the very next scene discovers the champion and avenger of the
faithful, and shows the security and blessedness of His people.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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TheDivineWatermark said:
Do you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11?? (and that verse 12 following that section says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE"?? and that the next 12 or so verses describe the 70ad events that the text is saying must come "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs??)
I agree with you that Matt 24: 4-8, Mark 13: 5-8 and Luke 21: 8-11 are talking about the same things.
I also agree that the next 12 verses in Luke describe 70 A.D.
Okay, but did you grasp what I'm saying (about that ^ )?

… that this means that the 70ad events (including 21:24) must take place BEFORE "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (which are equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6)… meaning, the SEQUENCE involves:

--the 70ad events must come BEFORE...

--"the beginning of birth PANGS" (the SEALS), which are FOLLOWED by...

--many more birth PANGS that follow on from "the BEGINNING" of them, which then lead up to...

--His Second Coming to the earth (when the first of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22[23] takes place, followed by...)

--a further specific time period, before [or when] the SECOND of those two "PUNISH" words takes place [i.e. the GWTj, AFTER the 1000 yr MK/"age [singular] to come"]


How does that "fit" with your "everything is done by 70ad" idea??
 

Locutus

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Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Birth "pangs" occur before the AOD - then they are to flee.

This is precisely the time that Luke gives for fleeing:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke is giving the same time frame as Matthew, he gives a some different and truncated account - but they are ONE and the SAME event in the 1st century AD.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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This is from James Stuart Russell's Parousia (Pdf copy so the format is not great - Russell is not FP
I've read the book. It is excellent and a classic. Not technically an FP because of his weird treatment of Rev 20: 5-10 and that he thought it was a parenthesis that went outside the confines of the book but essentially an FP if you ignore that. ;) I guess he just couldn't get over the 1,000 years being the transitional generation and thought it was too short.

His comments about Gessius Florus are fascinating and definitely seems like a reasonable possibility for the land beast. I've heard so many possibilities from that time and the Jews were so corrupt they all seem like good candidates. The remarks quoted in the book from Dean Alford and Dean Milman about the "image of the beast" being the statues of the Caesars are very intriguing as well.

The Parousia is a classic and should be required reading for all Christians regardless of their eschatological/theological views.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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CORRECT, I agree with you (!) that He is not speaking to you and me. Have you seen my posts referring to the "proleptic 'you'" [meaning, basically, "all those in the future, of the same category". (BTW, Paul also uses such, in his epistles, speaking of the entire "Church which is His body," there, as opposed to merely the literal group of persons immediately before him [in that time, during his lifetime, for example])]?

Jesus (in His Olivet Discourse) is speaking to "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom was promised." [and that was NOT to you and me, correct!]. At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had NOT YET spoken anything regarding "Rapture," for example. [THAT is not the SUBJECT being covered in His Olivet Discourse, but revealed and explained elsewhere]. The Olivet Discourse is using a CONSISTENT "you/ye" (and it is a proleptic 'you').
Hey brother.

Can you repost this "proleptic you" post to me? I will try to find it though!

Much love and blessings to you!
 

Bingo

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Feb 9, 2019
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"Ponder this CAREFULLY!....God's work has been DONE!
MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL...WHAT IS IT THAT 'YOU SEE'!
'CHRIST IN US'......'CHRIST IN US'...'CHRIST IN US'.........
Heaven on earth...or Hell on earth.........no more...no less."
'Praise God'....'I Am You...You Are I'.....
 

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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There is no physical third temple that is to be rebuilt in the land of Israel in physical Jerusalem. Jesus is the third temple.



This is a quote from Haggai 2: 6-9. The "little while" came to pass within a few years when God made all the surrounding nations pay for the building of the second temple. You can read about it in Ezra 6 when all the surrounding nations "were shaken" for their gold and silver and animals for the temple's construction and sacrifices. That's why it says the silver and gold are mine in Hag 2: 8.

God knows how to tell time and this was fulfilled within a few years. Where it says the "glory of this house shall be greater than the former and...in this place I will give peace" that is referring to Jesus as the temple fulfillment. He is the greatest temple and far surpasses the first temple in glory. He is also the One who gives peace.
Incorrect on all counts.

Calvin: "Inasmuch as the old people, who had seen the splendor of the former temple, considered this temple no better than a cottage"

-the 2nd temple never eclipsed the glory of the first, nor did the nation Israel. They had been vassals since the Babylonian devastation. No ark, no urim and thummim, etc etc, puppet kings. A tragedy for all intents and purposes.

-from even your perspective the term "a little while" spanned at least until the time of Herod....about 500 years

Hebrews 12
See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken

The Haggai 2 prophecy is undoubtedly futurist according to the writer of Hebrews. IMO it must refer to the Third Temple, as the first and the second are real and tangible entities.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,860
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Let me propose some possible solutions to the MotB and "buying and selling".

From my reading of Revelation it looks like whoever doesn't accept Jesus automatically receives the MotB and worships the beast. That would be all the apostate Jews and any unbelievers. They are contrasted with those who believe in Jesus and are sealed in Rev 14: 1.

As far as buying and selling goes, if you were a Christian, you don't "buy or sell" the stuff the world offers. You are about Jesus. You don't love the world or the things of the world. I think the buying and selling may have a spiritual application just like the MotB does. The whole thing is about who you worship. It's a spiritual thing and not a literal/physical buying and selling.

It's the book of Revelation and the first verse of the book tells you it is encoded in signs and symbols and don't take it too literally. I think you are doing that with the MotB and the buying and selling.

My recommendation would be don't throw out FP when it has dozens of clear verses that all point to the same time and fulfillment because of an obscure apocalyptic passage in Rev 13. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What say ye?

lol, I think that like a few post back you realized the disciples didn't understand the second coming in Matt.24 and you had an ah! ha! moment eventually youll read all of wars 2 and it will dawn on you that the Jews didn't worship Rome or Ceaser and you'll have another ah! ha! moment.