Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[Nehemiah6]

In all cases God the creator of all things must do the first works.

God the Holy Spirit does the convicting and convincing, while the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation. But it is the sinner who must repent and be converted. God does not do that for anyone.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37, 38)

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (Acts 3:19,20)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi, GodsGrace101 -

Thank you for replying.

You have made the following claim:

Election has nothing to do with God choosing which Jews will be saved. Instead, election has to do with God electing, or choosing the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews to be the chosen people through whom God would reveal Himself.

Can you please demonstrate your claim to be true with convincing and compelling argumentation?


Thanks, again.

Hi x,
Convincing and compelling argumentation?

First of all it's not MY claim. This is an accepted fact by theologians that are not calvinist in belief.
In the book of Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 Paul is not speaking about personal salvation but about corporate salvation....

These chapters are speaking about God's "chosen" people...the Jews.
God revealed Himself to the Hebrews, that became the Israelites, that became the Jews at the time of Jesus.

In the middle of the book of Romans, Paul explains that the Jews did not answer to God's requests as He had intended them to....they failed....so now God was going to bring in the Gentiles (as per the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants) and offer to them His salvation plan....maybe by the Gentiles accepting His plan,,, the jews might become jealous and convert to believe in the salvation plan concerning Jesus.

This could be demonstrated with the story of the Potter and the Clay in Romans 9:21-24.
How Calvinists explain these verses is not adequate.

Here is an explanation that is normal for non-calvinist scholars that have studied these chapters:

The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay​

Paul uses an illustration of a potter and clay in Romans 9:21-24, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”


According to Calvinism, God predetermines who will be saved. A Calvinist interpretation of the text is that God intentionally creates some people to be “vessels for dishonorable use” destined for destruction, in order to demonstrate His wrath.


This interpretation is problematic for two reasons. First, it’s not compatible with the loving character of God revealed in God’s Word and in the person of Jesus Christ. How could God, who “desires all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) intentionally create a person for the purpose of destroying him?


The second problem with this interpretation is that it fails to understand the Old Testament origin of the potter and clay illustration. The image of the potter and the clay is a direct reference to Jeremiah 18:1-4, which paints a picture very different from what the Calvinist would expect.


In this passage, God commands Jeremiah to go to the potter’s house. At the potter’s house, Jeremiah watches as the potter works at a wheel, intending to create a certain clay vessel. But the vessel doesn’t turn out the way he wanted, so the potter decides to shape a different kind of vessel out of the clay instead. God uses this illustration to describe His relationship to Israel. God wants to shape Israel a certain way. But if they refuse to cooperate, God can choose shape them into something else instead.


This illustration from Jeremiah is the exact opposite of the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. According to the Calvinist interpretation, God is a stubborn potter who molds the clay relentlessly until he forces it to be shaped the way he wants. But in Jeremiah, it’s actually the clay that is stubborn, and the potter who is flexible!


In a surprising twist to the story, the potter does not get what he originally wants! He originally intends the clay to be one way, but because the clay is stubborn and won’t cooperate, he chooses to shape the clay into something else instead. The potter works with the clay, but he doesn’t force the clay.

Immediately after the story of the potter and the clay, God declares:

“If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.”​

-Jeremiah 18:7-10​

These verses clearly demonstrate the role of humanity’s free will. Just as a potter acts in response to the clay, God acts in response to our choices. If a nation chooses to repent, God responds by relenting of the disaster He intended for it (this is exactly what happens to Ninevah in the Book of Jonah). Likewise, if a nation chooses to do evil, God can relent of the blessings He intended for it (this serves as a stark warning for our nation today).


God can declare blessing or disaster, but He is willing to relent of either in response to our own decisions. When correctly understood, the analogy of the potter and the clay strongly supports the role of humanity’s free will.


When Paul speaks of the potter and the clay in Romans 9, he says that God “endured with much patience vessels of wrath” (Romans 9:22). The Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 fails to adequately explain this verse. Why would God have to “endure with much patience” unbelieving people, if He was the one making them unbelieving in the first place?


source: http://lhim.org/blog/2014/04/11/a-free-will-perspective-on-romans-9-and-predestination/

 

[GodsGrace101]

I would not argue with anything you wrote. When men try to show other men Gods Grace it can be distorted and resisted.

When God is the One showing the man His Grace it is for a reason and cannot be resisted.

Romans 9:19-21
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?

Could you check out post no. 122 and give us YOUR version of what Romans 9 is speaking about....

And also, could you tell me WHEN God took away our free will?
I believe it was in the Garden of Eden and I believe it's in
Revelation 3:20......

So when?

Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

 

[GodsGrace101]

In all cases God the creator of all things must do the first works.It includes the work of repenting. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they cannot repent. Who and where would they turn to first and foremost their own hearts or one newly created?

Romans does not agree with you:

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

From the above verses it is clear that God made Himself known to man FIRST...this is correct.

BUT, since God's attributes have always been clearly seen and understood through what was made....
THEY (man) are without excuse....

A clear statement that man must reply of his own free will to what he has seen.

 

[GodsGrace101]

In all cases God the creator of all things must do the first works.It includes the work of repenting. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they cannot repent. Who and where would they turn to first and foremost their own hearts or one newly created?

God has to repent for us?

How do you explain:

Mathew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Why would Jesus tell people to repent if He, being God, knew it wasn't up to them?

 

[xjohnson]

Hi x,

The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay​

Paul uses an illustration of a potter and clay in Romans 9:21-24, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

Hi, GodsGrace101 -

Thank you for taking the time to share “The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay” argument.

Please forgive me; I’m not sure I follow you here. You first made the following claim about election and its purpose:

Election has nothing to do with God choosing which Jews will be saved. Instead, election has to do with God electing, or choosing the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews to be the chosen people through whom God would reveal Himself.

Then I asked you to demonstrate your claim to be true. Then you responded with “The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay” argument.

After reading the argument you provided, I am not sure what elements in it correspond to:

• election
• God revealing Himself

If you can help me identify the connection between the argument and the above bulleted points, then that would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi, GodsGrace101 -

Thank you for taking the time to share “The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay” argument.

Please forgive me; I’m not sure I follow you here. You first made the following claim about election and its purpose:

Election has nothing to do with God choosing which Jews will be saved. Instead, election has to do with God electing, or choosing the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews to be the chosen people through whom God would reveal Himself.

Then I asked you to demonstrate your claim to be true. Then you responded with “The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay” argument.

After reading the argument you provided, I am not sure what elements in it correspond to:

• election
• God revealing Himself

If you can help me identify the connection between the argument and the above bulleted points, then that would be great. Thanks in advance.

Well x, you're way too intelligent for me so you're going to have to help me along....

I did misspeak one word up above which I just realized...but it's not so bad.

I meant to say: Election has nothing to do with God choosing which Jews persons will be saved.

This might clarify it maybe?

All of chapters 9, 10 and 11 is speaking about the Jews,,,not individual salvation....I spoke about corporate salvation, which is the salvation of an entire nation or people or church. ...as opposed to personal salvation.

Calvinists believe God selects individual persons for salvation as shown in Romans 8:28.....and on.
Instead it's speaking about HOW one will be saved,,,,not WHO.

Then they'll speak about the potter and the clay and how God has the authority to make the vessel as He wishes....but they misinterpret the verses that are speaking about a story in the book of Jeremiah.

God revealing Himself:

God does not choose anyone IF He it's clearly stated in Romans 1:19-20 that God made Himself available to anyone who would recognize Him in His creation. Man had to CHOOSE GOD,,,,after God REVEALED Himself to man(kind).

I don't believe you can reconcile Calvinism with Arminianism...
You also are incorrect (sorry) in how you describe election in your O.P.
I think I posted a video on this...can't remember.

But the above link does explain this concept very well....
(about Romans 9, 10 and 11 speaking about the Jewish nation and NOT individual salvation).

 

[GodsGrace101]

@xjohnson

I found this on the net that may help regarding election and the chapters in Romans...

http://www.bibletrack.org/cgi-bin/bible.pl?incr=0&mo=8&dy=21


and more simple:

https://www.imb.org/topic/deepen-discipleship/romans/romans-9-11/


There's probably a lot more....

 

[Hevosmies]

Hi x,
Convincing and compelling argumentation?

First of all it's not MY claim. This is an accepted fact by theologians that are not calvinist in belief.
In the book of Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 Paul is not speaking about personal salvation but about corporate salvation....

These chapters are speaking about God's "chosen" people...the Jews.
God revealed Himself to the Hebrews, that became the Israelites, that became the Jews at the time of Jesus.

In the middle of the book of Romans, Paul explains that the Jews did not answer to God's requests as He had intended them to....they failed....so now God was going to bring in the Gentiles (as per the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants) and offer to them His salvation plan....maybe by the Gentiles accepting His plan,,, the jews might become jealous and convert to believe in the salvation plan concerning Jesus.

This could be demonstrated with the story of the Potter and the Clay in Romans 9:21-24.
How Calvinists explain these verses is not adequate.

Here is an explanation that is normal for non-calvinist scholars that have studied these chapters:

The Flexible Potter and the Stubborn Clay​

Paul uses an illustration of a potter and clay in Romans 9:21-24, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”


According to Calvinism, God predetermines who will be saved. A Calvinist interpretation of the text is that God intentionally creates some people to be “vessels for dishonorable use” destined for destruction, in order to demonstrate His wrath.


This interpretation is problematic for two reasons. First, it’s not compatible with the loving character of God revealed in God’s Word and in the person of Jesus Christ. How could God, who “desires all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9) intentionally create a person for the purpose of destroying him?


The second problem with this interpretation is that it fails to understand the Old Testament origin of the potter and clay illustration. The image of the potter and the clay is a direct reference to Jeremiah 18:1-4, which paints a picture very different from what the Calvinist would expect.


In this passage, God commands Jeremiah to go to the potter’s house. At the potter’s house, Jeremiah watches as the potter works at a wheel, intending to create a certain clay vessel. But the vessel doesn’t turn out the way he wanted, so the potter decides to shape a different kind of vessel out of the clay instead. God uses this illustration to describe His relationship to Israel. God wants to shape Israel a certain way. But if they refuse to cooperate, God can choose shape them into something else instead.


This illustration from Jeremiah is the exact opposite of the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. According to the Calvinist interpretation, God is a stubborn potter who molds the clay relentlessly until he forces it to be shaped the way he wants. But in Jeremiah, it’s actually the clay that is stubborn, and the potter who is flexible!


In a surprising twist to the story, the potter does not get what he originally wants! He originally intends the clay to be one way, but because the clay is stubborn and won’t cooperate, he chooses to shape the clay into something else instead. The potter works with the clay, but he doesn’t force the clay.

Immediately after the story of the potter and the clay, God declares:

“If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.”​

-Jeremiah 18:7-10​

These verses clearly demonstrate the role of humanity’s free will. Just as a potter acts in response to the clay, God acts in response to our choices. If a nation chooses to repent, God responds by relenting of the disaster He intended for it (this is exactly what happens to Ninevah in the Book of Jonah). Likewise, if a nation chooses to do evil, God can relent of the blessings He intended for it (this serves as a stark warning for our nation today).


God can declare blessing or disaster, but He is willing to relent of either in response to our own decisions. When correctly understood, the analogy of the potter and the clay strongly supports the role of humanity’s free will.


When Paul speaks of the potter and the clay in Romans 9, he says that God “endured with much patience vessels of wrath” (Romans 9:22). The Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 fails to adequately explain this verse. Why would God have to “endure with much patience” unbelieving people, if He was the one making them unbelieving in the first place?


source: http://lhim.org/blog/2014/04/11/a-free-will-perspective-on-romans-9-and-predestination/

WARNING

That website contains FALSE DOCTRINE.

Be careful when visiting and reading it. Gospel of the kingdom slang mixed in with........ denial of Jesus' deity! They are unitarians. BEWARE!

 

[Nehemiah6]

So yes, I disregard your misunderstanding of what the Gospel actually is.

You can disregard it all you want, but the majority of Christians will say that Calvinism is a FALSE GOSPEL. You continue to misrepresent the Atonement.

 

[GodsGrace101]

WARNING

That website contains FALSE DOCTRINE.

Be careful when visiting and reading it. Gospel of the kingdom slang mixed in with........ denial of Jesus' deity! They are unitarians. BEWARE!

H,

I don't post sites because I agree with them.

I post them when they agree with what I'm trying to explain.
That site explains perfectly about Romans 9, 10 and 11.

I also posted another one,,,and I can post many more.

The point is that Romans 9, 10 and 11 is speaking about Israel's salvation and not individual salvation.

I don't trust ANY SITE and it has to say what I believe or I don't post it.
Everything is says on there is correct....

 

[GodsGrace101]

@Hevosmies
@xjohnson


Do you prefer this one?
It states the same theology.
Any study will,,,except calvinist works.

P.S. Thanks H,,,,for the heads up...(but I checked it out first)


http://preachingsource.com/journal/the-jews-the-future-and-god-romans-9-11/

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Huh? I believe in Jesus Christ and I know that I have eternal life because of Jesus Christ! Quite simple!

But you believe you can lose him right? How can you be assured in the next 30 years you will still believe in him?

If I were to adopt the Calvinistic idea of "eternal security" I would have to worry about my works. Because if I was not doing enough works then my initial salvation would be in doubt.

Aww, See now you just increased your logical falacy, how could one ever have any kind of security if salvation was based on ones works? In fact, How can one ever say they have repented. And recieved christ if they thought even for a second they could do enough works? You see, The tax collector got on his knees because he realised his dire need, He did what Jesus said on the mount when he said blessed are the poor (literally bancrupt) in spirit for theirs is the kingdom. A person who is bancrupt is there because he has accumulated so much debt he has no way of paying that debt off no matter how much he works.

You see most calvinists I know. Focus on works as a means of gratitude for what God did. And because they have come to understand, That if we do well, even our countenance is hightened (Gods plea to Cain, which he failed to understand) and they have experienced how true that is. Faith is in God, not in how good we think we are or try to be. But focusing on the things of God..

Sadly, Instead of resting the problem I said you had, you made it even worse, You also have equated continued belief with works. Which just further proves what it is your faith is in.. And why even though you claim you have security, If you are honest withyourself. You have no capacity for security of any kind

You may view it differently; that is fine with me. But I have found security and meaning and life in faith in Christ. That is good enough for me.

Yet everything you say, SHows your security and meaning is in your ability to continue in faith, and to do good works. WHich at any time can stop. Meaning you have no security at all. You just have convinced yourself you have it.

Well you can have it..I will just pray you see in reality how you do not have it.. Your faith is in self. Not God.

 

[xjohnson]

You do give some good thoughts in your answer, but such blatantly wrong statements such as the one above cause all of your answer to be slanted and confusing.

Jesus clearly ministered to Samaritans, to Jews, and to Gentiles.

Hi, Chester -

Thanks for your reply.

The claim I made about Jesus’ pre-crucifixion ministry was unsubstantiated, because I thought it wasn’t necessary to provide an argument for it. However, in light of the fact that you have called this claim to be “blatantly wrong”, I’d like to share with you the basis for the claim, and then perhaps you can tell me where I have gone astray.

Again, here is the claim:

• Jesus’ pre-crucifixion ministry was to the Jew only, but for the benefit of both Jew and Gentile.

The basis for the claim consists of 3 parts:

• Identify Scripture declaring the scope of Jesus’ work
• Identify Scripture declaring the beneficiaries of Jesus’ work
• Address Scriptural instances of work performed by Jesus outside of defined scope

Scope of Jesus’ Work
The scope of Jesus work is defined in Matt 2:6, which is a quote from Micah 5:2:

But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel

So, we know from Scripture the role of the Christ as being a Ruler who will shepherd Israel.


Beneficiaries of Jesus’ Work
The beneficiaries of Jesus’ work is defined in John 1:29 by John the Baptist:

Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

So, we know from Scripture the worldwide benefit of the Ruler who will shepherd Israel.


Work Performed by Jesus Outside of Defined Scope
There are four instances in which we see Jesus work with non-Jews. There may be more, but I am not aware of them. Let’s look at each one.

• Matthew 15:21-28 (Parallel passage Mark 7:24-30). While the end-result was that Jesus helped the non-Jewish lady from Canaan, we can’t help but notice that Jesus initially resisted helping her and even went so far as to let her know that helping her was outside the scope of His ministry: “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.
  
  
• In regards to Jesus meeting the Samaritan woman, we have to be careful here and notice what the Scripture says in John 4:3-4: “He left Judea and departed to Galilee. But He needed to go through Samaria”. So, the intent was to go to Galilee, not Samaria. Samaria was the town that He “needed to go through”. Jesus initiated a conversation with the woman by commanding her to give Him some water, because His disciples “had gone away into the city to buy food”. The implication here is that had the disciples remained with Him, then He would not have spoken with her. So, the intent was for the woman to minister to Jesus, not the other way around.
  
  
• The account of Jesus helping the Centurion is fairly straightforward: the centurion submitted a request to Jesus to help him, and Jesus acquiesced. However, this incident in no way expands the scope of Jesus ministry.
  
  
• The fourth account of Jesus receiving a request from non-Jews was at a feast in Jerusalem in John 12:20-36. Some Greeks came to Phillip saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” Interestingly, Jesus completely ignores them! Instead of addressing their request, Jesus initiated a discussion with His disciples and the Jews, and then He left the area.

The bottom line here is that Jesus’ response to non-Jews ranges from acquiescence to resistance, with more instances of resistance. More instances of resistance would be consistent with the scope of Jesus’ ministry as explicitly defined in Scripture. The bottom line is that, Biblically speaking, Jesus assisting non-Jews was the exception to the rule.

Do you think the Scriptures I shared with you in this post were sufficient to demonstrate that Jesus’ ministry was limited in scope to Jews? If not, why not? Do you know of Scriptures where Jesus declared explicitly that his ministry was to be directed toward non-Jews? Do you know of Old Testament Scriptures where Jesus ministry was prophesied to be directed toward non-Jews?

Thanks for your time.

 

[cv5]

I guess you'll have to go back and try to read what was actually said. Maybe then you will be able to understand.

I don't understand how you can get that a Calvinist believes a person chooses God and God doesn't elect that person from what I wrote.

But I see why you would give up your original argument and try to move on to something else that you feel is wrong about Calvinism.

Does a baby choose to be born? Not as far as we know. Jesus alludes to this in John Ch 3 as we all know. And He indicates that the rebirth is wholly due to the will of the Spirit. Nicodemus admits his impotence in the matter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does a baby choose to be born? Not as far as we know. Jesus alludes to this in John Ch 3 as we all know. And He indicates that the rebirth is wholly due to the will of the Spirit. Nicodemus admits his impotence in the matter.

Jesus explained it, I am sure nicodemus later understood it and recieved it and salvation.

For God so loved the world. He gave his only begotten son, that whoever BELIEVES in him will not perish but have ETERNAL life

New birth is based on faith. WHich is based o n Gods mercy and forgiveness, Based on God giving his son.

He hwo believes is not condemned, WHo he does nto believe is condemned already, BECAUSE they have not believed.

John tells us in his first chapter. The peopple given the right to become children of God ar those who recieve him. How do they recieve him? By believing in him.

 

[xjohnson]

Grandpa said:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Galatians 3:28 there is no jew or gentile for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (paraphrase)

Hi, Grandpa -

Thanks for your reply.

You reached the conclusion that the curse Isaiah pronounced against the Jews also applies to all of mankind, based on the following:

• Ephesians 2:8-9
• Galatians 3:28

The contents of the bulleted items above contain no reference to Isaiah’s curse, and don’t make any truth claims that mitigate against the curse. It is true that the Jews were under a curse as demonstrated in the OP, and at the same time:

• Christians have always been saved through faith, and
• there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

Perhaps, if you can show how the Scriptures you referenced expand the curse to include Gentiles, then that may be helpful. Can you elaborate a little more on this? Thanks in advance.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Hi, Everyone -

I proffer that the answer to the question I posed is "yes", and the reason I decided to join this Christian chat service is to get your reaction to my approach on this subject. Perhaps, some will respond to my approach with a convincing and compelling rebuttal to demonstrate the ways in which my approach is flawed.

In the world of physics there are two irreconcilable disciplines: "quantum mechanics" and "relativity". The rules found in quantum mechanics do not apply in relativity, and, likewise, the rules found in relativity do not apply to quantum mechanics. This divide has led scientists to attempt to define a theory that unifies these two disciplines . Despite being unsuccessful for decades, the effort to unite the two approaches continues today.

In light of Scripture, it would seem Christians would have within themselves a similar desire to unite those who adhere to either of these theological traditions. For example, Jesus prayed in John 17 the following:

............................

An argument that has existed for 4 centuries is unlikely to be resolved here

Does it matter? It is in our exploration of the truths of God that we grow, and it is this growth
that matters. Some seem to think definitive answers are the key.
But it strikes me it is how we move towards things that matter, and how we treat others in the
process, being like Jesus rather than the world.

In eternity we will probably see these were reflections of the same truth, so neither were wrong
or right. So our shame will be our judgement of our brothers and sisters in Christ and whether we
were an encouragement to walk deep in grace or abandon things because it is too dangerous.

 

[Chester]

So then you can't say you have fed the Whole World.

You can say you provided food for the whole world. Anyone who wishes can come and eat.

But all the people who don't come and eat you would HAVE to say were not fed.


This is just semantics and I don't know why you won't admit that? We both view this the same. The only difference is that I see God as the One bringing us to the Meal and you see everyone free willing themselves to the meal.

But we don't even have to bring that part up. We can just both agree that those who aren't saved DON'T have their sins forgiven. And by implication of this fact we can say that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the Believer but the unbeliever retains his/her sins.

Is it that bad to be logical about this?

Exactly! Almost . . .

The only part you miss is that I also believe 100% that "God is the one who brings us to the meal". And I also (as you say) believe 100% that we have free choice to come to the meal.

I like your last post a lot, and I like your humor . . . now if you were just logical about it like I am . . . !!

Actually - the Spirit is not going to be logical, is He?? !!!!

 

[Chester]

But you believe you can lose him right? How can you be assured in the next 30 years you will still believe in him?


Aww, See now you just increased your logical falacy, how could one ever have any kind of security if salvation was based on ones works? In fact, How can one ever say they have repented. And recieved christ if they thought even for a second they could do enough works? You see, The tax collector got on his knees because he realised his dire need, He did what Jesus said on the mount when he said blessed are the poor (literally bancrupt) in spirit for theirs is the kingdom. A person who is bancrupt is there because he has accumulated so much debt he has no way of paying that debt off no matter how much he works.

You see most calvinists I know. Focus on works as a means of gratitude for what God did. And because they have come to understand, That if we do well, even our countenance is hightened (Gods plea to Cain, which he failed to understand) and they have experienced how true that is. Faith is in God, not in how good we think we are or try to be. But focusing on the things of God..

Sadly, Instead of resting the problem I said you had, you made it even worse, You also have equated continued belief with works. Which just further proves what it is your faith is in.. And why even though you claim you have security, If you are honest withyourself. You have no capacity for security of any kind


Yet everything you say, SHows your security and meaning is in your ability to continue in faith, and to do good works. WHich at any time can stop. Meaning you have no security at all. You just have convinced yourself you have it.

Well you can have it..I will just pray you see in reality how you do not have it.. Your faith is in self. Not God.

Say what you will, and say whatever you want - that is OK with me . . .

I believe in Jesus Christ and know that I have eternal life and am assured that He is my Savior, my God, and my Friend! Hallelujah!