Jesus is not coming back. He already did in 70 A.D.

[delirious]

This verse and related scriptures, have nothing to do with the fall of Jerusalem, or anything at all to do with Jerusalem.

What about the verses I linked? Rev 18: 24 says the "blood of prophets and saints" was found in her (Mystery Babylon).
What about Luke 13: 33-34 where Jesus says a "prophet cannot die outside Jerusalem"?
What about Rev 17: 6 that says the woman was "drunk with the blood of the martyrs and saints" and compare that with Matt 23: 34-36.

I linked all of these in my last post but you didn't answer any of them.

What do you do with Rev 1: 1 & 3 and Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 where we are told 7 times that the things written in the book of Revelation must shortly come to pass. These 7 warnings are at the very beginning and end of the book and work as bookends. The fact that they are repeated so many times is telling people "don't ignore this or you will interpret the book wrong."

Futurists will claim:

"near" means "far"
"shortly" means "way in the distant future"
"quickly" means "a really, really long time"
"at hand" means "2,000 years and still counting"

Nobody who is unbiased, and willing to read the Scripture just for what it says, will agree to an interpretation like that.

 

[delirious]

Luke 21:20-22 that you are quoting here (a part of the 70ad section [vv.12-24a]) is saying that the 70ad events are necessary to be fulfilled (they cannot be "skipped over" or "bypassed"), but it is not saying that the 70ad events is the sum total of all the prophecies to be fulfilled. (I said that in an earlier post of this thread.)

If you don't believe the fall of Jerusalem fulfilled the law then you believe the Old Covenant is still in effect. I think Scripture says it passed away in 70 A.D. (Heb 8: 13).

I mean, first you agreed with me in my pointing out the SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse (where it's basically saying in Lk21:12 that the 70ad events have to come "BEFORE ALL THESE[--->]" beginning of birth pangs [Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), but then you changed your mind to agree with another poster that that is not what is being said here in Lk21:12 [12-24a 70ad events]. Is it, or isn't it?

Please refer to Post #470 to see what I actually said in reply to you. I didn't change my mind.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
I mean, first you agreed with me in my pointing out the SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse (where it's basically saying in Lk21:12 that the 70ad events have to come "BEFORE ALL THESE[--->]" beginning of birth pangs [Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), but then you changed your mind to agree with another poster that that is not what is being said here in Lk21:12 [12-24a 70ad events]. Is it, or isn't it?

Please refer to Post #470 to see what I actually said in reply to you. I didn't change my mind.

"The beginning of birth pangs" (also things to be "fulfilled") commence AFTER the 70ad events.

Matthew 24:29-31 correlates with Isaiah 27:12-13 "gather[-ed] [verb]… TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"... yet Lk21:24a says the opposite occurs, in the 70ad events. How are you equating these?

 

[Absolutely]

What about the verses I linked? Rev 18: 24 says the "blood of prophets and saints" was found in her (Mystery Babylon).
What about Luke 13: 33-34 where Jesus says a "prophet cannot die outside Jerusalem"?
What about Rev 17: 6 that says the woman was "drunk with the blood of the martyrs and saints" and compare that with Matt 23: 34-36.

I linked all of these in my last post but you didn't answer any of them.

What do you do with Rev 1: 1 & 3 and Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 where we are told 7 times that the things written in the book of Revelation must shortly come to pass. These 7 warnings are at the very beginning and end of the book and work as bookends. The fact that they are repeated so many times is telling people "don't ignore this or you will interpret the book wrong."

Futurists will claim:

"near" means "far"
"shortly" means "way in the distant future"
"quickly" means "a really, really long time"
"at hand" means "2,000 years and still counting"

Nobody who is unbiased, and willing to read the Scripture just for what it says, will agree to an interpretation like that.

All those terms are relative.
Your perspective is totally different than God's.
If you look at the typeology in Hebrews,it is easy to see the literal/tangeable alongside the spiritual.
Type vs antitype
But type alongside antitype.

What you spiritualize has endless possibilities.

 

[delirious]

"The beginning of birth pangs" (also things to be "fulfilled") commence AFTER the 70ad events.

I don't know why you keep saying the "birth pangs" are after 70 A.D. Jesus says in Matt 24: 34 that ALL these things will happen to this generation. It doesn't say some but ALL. It's the same thing in the Mark and Luke versions of the Olivet Discourse.

Luke 21: 24 says "Jerusalem will be trampled until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". I believe this was fulfilled in 66-70 A.D. during the siege of Jerusalem. Here are a couple texts I believe support this:

Rev 11: 2, "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Dan 12: 1 & 7 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book." 7 "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

This was in regard to Daniel's people, the Jews, whose power was completely shattered in the siege and fall of Jerusalem.

I agree with you that Matt 24: 29-31 and Isaiah 27: 12-13 are the same event but I believe it took place in 70 A.D.

 

[delirious]

All those terms are relative.
Your perspective is totally different than God's.
If you look at the typeology in Hebrews,it is easy to see the literal/tangeable alongside the spiritual.
Type vs antitype
But type alongside antitype.
What you spiritualize has endless possibilities.

I'm just reading the text. All those texts I linked say that Jerusalem was the one guilty of killing all the prophets and was full of their blood. That matches Mystery Babylon (Rev 17: 6 & Rev 18: 24).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't know why you keep saying the "birth pangs" are after 70 A.D. Jesus says in Matt 24: 34 that ALL these things will happen to this generation. It doesn't say some but ALL. It's the same thing in the Mark and Luke versions of the Olivet Discourse.
Luke 21: 24 says "Jerusalem will be trampled until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". I believe this was fulfilled in 66-70 A.D. during the siege of Jerusalem. Here are a couple texts I believe support this:
Rev 11: 2, "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Dan 12: 1 & 7 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book." 7 "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
This was in regard to Daniel's people, the Jews, whose power was completely shattered in the siege and fall of Jerusalem.

I agree with you that Matt 24: 29-31 and Isaiah 27: 12-13 are the same event but I believe it took place in 70 A.D.

So, Daniel was told he would "rest [that is, in death], and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END OF THE DAYS [the "days" referred to in that chpt 12 CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1, etc]," which you are saying was 70ad. How so? (why not earlier?) Was this when Lk22:30 took place too? ("sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel").

I believe Daniel 12:12's "BLESSED" pertains to "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" (promised to Israel) as does about 10 other "BLESSED" references in the NT (I've listed in past posts), aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]" aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]" (the earthly MK... His disciples asked Him about the TIMING of it [they already understood "WHAT" it was to be, Jesus spoke of it in the phrase "the age [singular] to come" in Matt12:32 (many other places also) ], in their Q of Him in Acts 1, AFTER His resurrection and "40 days" of being seen of them...).

 

[delirious]

So, Daniel was told he would "rest [that is, in death], and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the END OF THE DAYS [the "days" referred to in that chpt 12 CONTEXT, vv.6-7,1, etc],

The Christian age has no end. If it has no end how could it have a "last days" or an "end of the days".

When a person sees "last days" like in Acts 2: 17 or "time of the end" it is talking about the end of the Jewish age and Old Covenant.

The New Covenant age, which we are in right now, has no end. The Bible repeatedly says that Christ's kingdom lasts forever. How can it have a "last days" then?

which you are saying was 70ad. How so? (why not earlier?) Was this when Lk22:30 took place too? ("sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel").

I'm saying the establishment of His kingdom, which He said He was bringing back with Him, happened in 70 A.D. The apostles, just like all saints who have died, rule and reign with Him in heaven right now.

There are no references in the Bible that say the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place on earth.

We see the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Rev 19 immediately after the fall of Jerusalem in Rev 17 & 18. That's when the resurrection happened (Matt 24: 30-31, Dan 12: 2, 1 Thess 4: 16-17 and 1 Cor 15: 51-52) and people from north, east, south and west sat down in the kingdom of God at the supper and the Jews were cast out/destroyed as Jesus said they would be.

Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. It is a spiritual kingdom. It is not a physical/earthly one although you can see it in motion through the acts of love and kindness that Christians show towards others.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said: which you are saying was 70ad. How so? (why not earlier?) Was this when Lk22:30 took place too? ("sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel").

I'm saying the establishment of His kingdom, which He said He was bringing back with Him, happened in 70 A.D. The apostles, just like all saints who have died, rule and reign with Him in heaven right now.

My question would then be, how is this ^ [described as] "judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (supposedly "in [from] heaven") if 70ad was the end of that nation [in God's scheme of things] (on the earth)? This makes no sense to me, sorry.


[adding the passages I've pointed out in the past: 1Jn4:2 "having come [perfect participle] in flesh" is distinct from 2Jn1:7's "who confess not Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh"]

 

[delirious]

This makes no sense to me, sorry.

It's all good. Jumping off for a bit. Maybe we can talk some other time. God bless.

 

[iamsoandso]

I know that the Jews hated the Romans and the Christians and anybody else who was not them. I agree with you there. What I am disputing is your application of Rev 13.

Rev 13: 7-8, "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

These verses say that everyone who is not a Christian is worshiping the beast and Satan.

Remember that Jesus said of the Jewish leaders that their father was the devil. Yet the Jews couldn't stand the Roman pagan images and other idolatries and fought against those things vigorously. Yet Jesus said their father was still the devil.

Revelation is an apocalyptic book and if someone takes the MotB and the buying and selling as literal/physical phenomena, when the book says in the first verse (Rev 1: 1) that it is encoded in signs, then I think they are reading it wrong. The seal on the servants of God's forehead is not literal. So why insist that the MotB is literal? And if the MotB is not literal, then neither is the buying and selling.

Now if you don't think Revelation took place in 70 A.D. that would be a different matter but I was under the impression you did.

I spoke of this several post back(not to you in specific) but this would make a difference as to if the mark, image ect. are to be discerned spiritually or literally.

I think you might enjoy looking at this for a moment because I saw it as eyeopening in aspect to if this is spiritual or literal according to Scripture because like in your thinking it would make a difference as to if it was fulfilled already or not(I.E. ad70)...

I could care less if it is spiritual or literal(outside the camps,lol) but I can see no option other than literal because of the Scriptures I referenced(Revelation 13:15 and Revelation 19:21). Anyway I think if I were Amil. or preterist I would not feel comfortable trying to defend spiritual verses literal on this(most preterist go literal i.e. Nero)... ,but I would enjoy discussing the two scriptures I have mentioned with you ... but I have to charge my mifi lol,,,back after the caveman cranks the generator,,,

 

[UnderGrace]

To Simon55

To start Daniel 7 has no mention of 1260 years or days. I read the chapter through from a copy of Youngs Literal translation.
Both Numbers and Ezekiel says that God counted days as years in those specific incidents but to apply it as a hard and fast rule
as you seem to do makes some fantastic reading. Was Jesus in the wilderness for Forty Years being tempted? Did he stay in the tomb for three years? Did it take God six years to create Heaven and Earth?

The belief that John wrote Revelation originated from a statement by Irenaeus who knew Justin Martyr believed to be Johns Disciple.
all other statements come from people who took his statement as factual based on this relationship. The whole argument is still open to debate.

The whore is dressed as a Jewish High Priest right down to the the writing on her forehead. The High Priest wore a plate on his forehead which said Holy Unto the Lord. The Whore is a Parody and represents apostate Israel who is called a whore by the Prophets

I dont have the time or inclination to deal with every point you bring up but I will say that I am not a Full Preterist which you seem to
assume I am. I would also suggest you read Matthew 23

Mr. Tanakh, not sure if this is off topic or if you have discussed somewhere else on CC, but do think there will be a future mark of the beast as described in Revelations, where people cannot buy or sell without it?

I am rethinking a lot of what I previously accepted now realizing I read to many Hal Lindsey books along the way.

 

[crossnote]

(Rev 1:7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

70AD?? Umm...nope.

 

[Locutus]

(Rev 1:7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

70AD?? Umm...nope.

Umm..Yup.

Me thinks yer eyeballs skipped over where it says "and they also which pierced him" - those that pierced him are long dead. Therefore your claim is without substance,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Keep in mind the following passages:

Acts 5:27-30 -

27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council [G4892 - synedrio ]: and the high priest [G749 - archiereus ] asked them,

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.


1 Corinthians 2:8 [blb] -

"...which none of the rulers [G758 -archontōn ] of this age has understood. For if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

 

[Hevosmies]

The FP view believes that all Scripture is fulfilled by 70 A.D.

Matt 5: 17-18, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Jesus is saying in this passage that the Old Covenant cannot pass away until everything is fulfilled that is written in the law and prophets. He says not even the smallest bit can pass from the law until it is all fulfilled and at that time heaven and earth will pass away.

Luke 21: 20-22, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

In these verses we see the fulfillment of everything written in the Old Testament at the destruction of Jerusalem. Heaven and earth passed away (the old covenant) and the new heavens and earth (the new covenant, Christ's kingdom) was established.

Its a slippery slope. You went from teaching a weird doctrine from Job and combining it to Rev 20:11 and saying thats the resurrection, without noticing that would make all christians die violently to the earth melting since only after that is the judgment/second resurrection mentioned in rev 20:11ff

Now you said that AD70 ALL OT was fulfilled then. No scrpiture provided. Luke 20:22 does not say ALL OT scripture written may be fulfilled. It just says all things, WHAT all things? RELATING TO THAT EVENT!

 

[crossnote]

Umm..Yup.

Me thinks yer eyeballs skipped over where it says "and they also which pierced him" - those that pierced him are long dead. Therefore your claim is without substance,

No, it proves my point. In Judgment every eye will see Him. Judgment has not yet come.

 

[Oseas]

Where I disagree is that only part of these things were fulfilled in 70 A.D. Jesus said all of them would happen to "this generation". I believe Jesus was referring to His generation because He always uses it that way.

If you say only "some" happened in 70 A.D. that only leaves "some" for the alleged "final generation". That means neither Jesus' generation or a final generation could fulfill ALL these things. Jesus said it would be ALL in "this generation"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There shall not be left here one stone upon another. Tthe testimony of JESUS is the spirit of prophecy.

In the year 70, yes, in the year 70, fulfilled itself LITERALLY one if not the most punishment that fell upon the nation of Israel in fulfilment what said Moses in Deut.28:v.15-68 (a list of plagues described in 53 verses), and also in fulfilmente the prophetic words of JESUS (the testimony of JESUS is the spirit of prophecy) written in Matt.24:1-2, as follow:

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (Oh! very beautiful) 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

We know that in the year 70 Israel was banned from their land, hundreds of thousands were killed and those who remained alive were scattered around the world in gentile lands.
Israel has been punished many times for destruction and persecutions due their rebellious behavior against God Almighty. They always were warned by Moses about severe punishments and harsh curses due their disobedience. Deut. 28: 15-68 (53 verses of plagues), and these curses and punishments fell upon Israel in the year 70 and whenever they disobeyed the commandments and instructions of the Lord given through Moses.

The worst thing done by Israel was the crucifixion of Jesus.

The worst thing done by Israel was the crucifixion of Jesus, yeah, the worst of all was to crucify Jesus, the Messiah, who was sent by the most High GOD for their salvation, and by whom God the Father established the new Covenant, which Israel rejected. What was the consequence of this insane behavior? From the year 70 to the year 1948, they were severely punished and they remained without nation for 1,878 anos, the curses which Moses had listed against them, all of them fell upon all the Jews wherever they went.

And the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed and thus fulfilled LITERALLY what JESUS had said unto His disciples, saying: See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Hundreds of thousands of the Jews were killed in the invasion of the Romans, those who fled and escaped, they scattered themselves and were persecuted in the four corners of the earth, from the year 70 to the year 1948, they were severely punished and remained without nation for 1,878 anos. The curses which Moses exposed unto them, they fell upon all the Jews wherever they went.

And now, yeah, and now, what will happen with the nation of Israel that has returned to their land, in fulfillment of all that is written about them in the Word of God? They yet reject JESUS and His Gospel, the Jews are waiting the manifestation of their peculiar messiah, not JESUS. By the way, the Lord JESUS did know they will receive another messiah and He prophesied about the coming of a false messiah, an IMPOSTOR. JESUS said to the Jews: (John 5:v.43-47) 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER shall come in his own name (a FALSE messiah, an IMPOSTER, an USURPER), him ye will receive.

Who is the false messiah of the ESOTERIC Jews, yeah, who is this IMPOSTOR? He is the Beast which will rise up out of the earth (Rev.13:v.11-18), whose coming is after the working of Satan (2Thes.2:9-12) with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness IN THEM THAT PERISH; because they received not the love of the truth (they did not love JESUS and do not love JESUS yet ), that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie (the Jews will believe in the false messiah, as JESUS warned them: John 5:v.v.43. Check it): That THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth (believed not in JESUS, the true Messiah), but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Based in this Word of God, they are lost once believing in a FALSE messiah, an IMPOSTOR.

Romans 2:v.12- as many as have sinned in the law (the JEWS) shall be Judged by the law; and as many as have sinned without law (the GENTILES) shall also PERISH without law.

He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Endoscopy]

According to the Bible, Jesus' second coming was in 70 A.D. Here is a few Scriptures in support of this:

Matt 16: 27-28, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matt 24: 30-31, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. " This is the Olivet Discourse and in verse 34 it says "ALL these things will come upon this generation" Not some things but ALL these signs will come upon this generation.

Matt 10: 23, "17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. 23 For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

I have many more Scriptures I can provide if anyone is interested in discussing this. God bless.

Your own verse gives proof you are wrong!

Matt 24: 30-31, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "

When did everyone see Jesus appear. That technology didn't exist until recently. World wide instant viewing with TV!!

 

[Noose]

Your own verse gives proof you are wrong!

Matt 24: 30-31, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "

When did everyone see Jesus appear. That technology didn't exist until recently. World wide instant viewing with TV!!

Which technology was needed here:

Matt 26:
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”