Rapture

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Deade

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Only if rev 14 is removed grom the bible.
Post trib rapture REQUIRES the dead to rise AFTER the living.
You are saying the 144,000 are raptured to heaven? No, God is saving flesh and blood from all 12 tribes to start the Millennial reign in the Promised Land. Verse 5 says they are before the throne of God is symbolic. Symbolically everything is before God's throne. Don't hold your breath expecting to be raptured before the tribulation. Better to start a plan B. :)(y):cool:
 
Apr 15, 2017
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There will be no pre/mid/post trib rapture and even rapture as being described here is not going to happen at all. There will be no such thing as Christ second coming either, for Christ has always been coming as the Holy spirit since the disciples time- the reason He told them they won't finish moving through all the towns in Jerusalem before He comes back.

Mass rapture is a lie, two or three people surviving a car crush is their rapture, it happens every day.
No one is leaving this earth but the kingdom of God will rule over this earth forever and ever. The earth itself will change but believers will still be here.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

When Jesus has fulfilled the law, then heaven and earth shall pass away.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Jesus has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth, for He came as a humble servant, which He will rule for a 1000 years, and fulfill the role of perfect King, and then heaven and earth shall pass away, and they will not be anymore.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

All sin has to be purged with fire, and the heaven has been tainted by the fallen angels, and the earth has been tainted by people, and they are natural, so they must pass away, in which the heavens shall pass away, and melt with fervent heat, and the earth shall be burned up, and all the works of it.

After the millennial reign of Christ, this heaven and earth will be no more.

Psa 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell is in the lower parts of the earth, and death and hell are cast in to the lake of fire, so this former earth shall be cast in the to the lake of fire, and anything that is cast in to the lake of fire is not restored.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Jesus went away from the earth to prepare a place for the saints where they will dwell forever, and will create a new heaven, and a new earth, where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and the former heaven and earth shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, for they are associated with sin and rebellion, and the saints, and angels, will feel as if they have always been there, and nowhere else.

People will not dwell on this earth forever, but this heaven and earth shall pass away, and be no more.

Also Jesus said that the kingdom of God comes without observation, for they will not say, here it is, or there it is, for the kingdom of God is within you.

When a person has the Holy Spirit the kingdom of God is within them as they display the ways of God on earth.

Jesus said some were standing there that shall not taste of death until they see the kingdom of God come.

Which happened at the day of Pentecost with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which the kingdom of God had come.

But Jesus is still going to come in a glorified body in the future, and get His people off the earth, and then the world will fight against Israel, the Jews, which God turned them to the truth as a nation, and Jesus will come back with all the saints, and defeat the world, and save Israel, and then fulfill the role of perfect King on earth, and then heaven and earth shall pass away, and be no more.

The first attack on Jerusalem, the nation of Israel did not turn to Jesus, and they scattered the Jews in to the nations, and God allowed it to happen.

The second attack on Jerusalem, the nation of Israel turned to Jesus, and God will not allow it to happen but go against them.

Do not mix the 2 up for there is a future war against Jerusalem, Israel, the Jews, and people want to place both in the first century.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

When Jesus has fulfilled the law, then heaven and earth shall pass away.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Jesus has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth, for He came as a humble servant, which He will rule for a 1000 years, and fulfill the role of perfect King, and then heaven and earth shall pass away, and they will not be anymore.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Heb 10: 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. ...
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For,in just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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Well,remove rev 14 and .....poooof!
Rev does not mention the rapture nor does 14 affect the timing of rapture mthat Paul wrote. You are merely avoiding when Paul said the rapture occurs.

We have to go to the only verses that even use word rapture. (the word for rapture not English)

As you can see, the rapture is placed after the second coming and resurrection, both which happen after trib has ended so the only rapture position that matches scripture is post trib.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You are saying the 144,000 are raptured to heaven? No, God is saving flesh and blood from all 12 tribes to start the Millennial reign in the Promised Land. Verse 5 says they are before the throne of God is symbolic. Symbolically everything is before God's throne. Don't hold your breath expecting to be raptured before the tribulation. Better to start a plan B. :)(y):cool:
No,it says later a few verses down Jesus comes in the clouds and reaps ripe fruit from the earth. Most likely a jewish remnant since the 144k are firstfruits.

Read a little further.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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No,it says later a few verses down Jesus comes in the clouds and reaps ripe fruit from the earth. Most likely a jewish remnant since the 144k are firstfruits.

Read a little further.

The first fruits would be saved Christians of all races not just the 144k.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Rev does not mention the rapture nor does 14 affect the timing of rapture mthat Paul wrote. You are merely avoiding when Paul said the rapture occurs.

We have to go to the only verses that even use word rapture. (the word for rapture not English)

As you can see, the rapture is placed after the second coming and resurrection, both which happen after trib has ended so the only rapture position that matches scripture is post trib.
So that means the dead rise after the rapture in rev 14.
Re read it.
Jesus comes on a cloud in rev 14 and raptures a group of people.
Your scenario has the dead rising after the rapture of rev 14.
No way is there any such post trib rapture or resurrection.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
No,it says later a few verses down Jesus comes in the clouds and reaps ripe fruit from the earth. Most likely a jewish remnant since the 144k are firstfruits.

Read a little further.
Do you mean these verses?

The Harvest of the Earth

Rev. 14:14-20 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

This is no harvest our saints, this is God's wrath!
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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Do you mean these verses?

The Harvest of the Earth

Rev. 14:14-20 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

This is no harvest our saints, this is God's wrath!
You missed the first one which is the saints, "for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The first fruits would be saved Christians of all races not just the 144k.
The 144k are specifically identified as firstfruit Jews.
They are apart from the firstfruits general assembly
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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Do you mean these verses?

The Harvest of the Earth

Rev. 14:14-20 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

This is no harvest our saints, this is God's wrath!
144k one group
Ripe fruit gathered by Jesus another group
Then AFTERWARD, ANOTHER ANGEL,gathers ANOTHER GROUP,to be thrust into the winepress.

Are you actually reading that chapter?
I have no idea how you could blend 3 groups into one.
....and all 3 different distinctive groups.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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You missed the first one which is the saints, "for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."
Yeah, okay. That first sickle may be the saints, but it isn't necessarily before the tribulation. It kind of looks like during the tribulation or after? :cool:
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You missed the first one which is the saints, "for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."
Yes, Jesus gathers that group,never touches earth,and that gathering is during the gt
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Yeah, okay. That first sickle may be the saints, but it isn't necessarily before the tribulation. It kind of looks like during the tribulation or after? :cool:
During the trib
I never saw it either until about 3 years ago.
It is somewhat "hidden" for some reason
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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The 144k are specifically identified as firstfruit Jews.
They are apart from the firstfruits general assembly

They are not the entirety of the firstfruits. Plus, they are Christians who are of the Israelite lineages.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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Yeah, okay. That first sickle may be the saints, but it isn't necessarily before the tribulation. It kind of looks like during the tribulation or after? :cool:
The harvest is rapture and it happens after trib.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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He touches the Earth after the rapture.
He does at the 2nd coming. At the end of the gt.
Rev 14 is mid to late trib.

If post trib is to have traction,it must survive a test fit.

Look at the dialog at the last supper.
He discusses business in heaven with his body. Us.

Post trib rapture adherents energetically declares we NEVER see heaven
 
Jul 23, 2018
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He touches the Earth after the rapture.
Mat 25 is the rapture.
The bride goes with the groom to the wedding.
Post trib rapture adherents have the bride erroneously RETURNING to her house with the groom.

Just one impossibility is a thread killer

.....but several????