Exchanging Relationship For Works

[Noblemen]

By Theresa Ferraro part 1

Through the grace of our Father and the instruction of the Holy Spirit, after an exhaustive conversation with a good friend and mentor, I came to an epiphany at the Kansas Weekend in the Word.
I’d had trouble recognizing law in general, anything outside of Moses’ Law. I wondered: Why should a Christian not try to live a good, clean life according to the Bible? It is the least one could do in appreciation of Christ’s sacrifice. James
endorses works as a vital testament of one’s faith.

Why is there such a discrepancy between what some churches teach and the Gospel message? What a wonderful blessing when a veil is lifted and you suddenly understand a concept you previously hadn’t been able to wrap your
mind around!
Back in the Garden, what did Adam have before he disobeyed God? What
did he exchange? He had a personal relationship with God; God visited and
talked with Adam until sin separated them. What did Satan tell Eve?

“For God doth know that
in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be
opened, and ye shall be as
gods, knowing good and
evil” (Gen. 3:5).

This is Sunday School stuff. But people don’t connect this exchange with what happens in religion. Many Christians live out their faith through introspection, naval-gazing!
Some people just have a penchant for self-analysis, even me; I admit it. But many study the Old Testament to learn lessons of Christian character and
try to apply it to their lives—how to be a man of faith like Abraham or Moses, or how to be a woman of God like Esther.

But, you see, the forbidden tree in the Garden was not of evil; it was of the knowledge of both good and evil. When we work the knowledge of good and evil (this includes trying to be good), we are truly acting as gods, just as Satan promised.
We are acting on our own power, as a child looks to his parent and says, “I don’t
need your help; I can do it myself.” And then he proceeds to fall flat on his face.

But what does God want? Did He create the world so He could watch us be good? No. He wanted a relationship! From the
beginning of time, God yearned for a loving relationship. God gave Adam and Eve options because love is a choice. He wants us to eventually fall in love with Him, not to be inde- pendent beings.

But, how can we have a relationship with Him if we pass our days studying our-selves and trying to perfect our flaws?

“Having begunin the Spirit, are ye now
made perfect by the flesh?”
(Gal. 3:3).

After years of trying to perfect the flesh, many Christians get burned out or find that no matter how good they were, they still ran into bad circumstances beyond their control. You see, law-givers hold out the promise that bad behavior reaps bad consequences.
I do believe this law is built into God’s universe, just as the law of gravity; but, fol-
lowing that reason, one would conclude that good behavior will reap good con-
sequences.
This simply is not so in this third-dimension life. No matter how you give yourself to being faithful, honest, responsible, decent, kind and sinless, you are still going to find
heartache, trouble and despair in this life.

 

[GodsGrace101]

By Theresa Ferraro part 1

Through the grace of our Father and the instruction of the Holy Spirit, after an exhaustive conversation with a good friend and mentor, I came to an epiphany at the Kansas Weekend in the Word.
I’d had trouble recognizing law in general, anything outside of Moses’ Law. I wondered: Why should a Christian not try to live a good, clean life according to the Bible? It is the least one could do in appreciation of Christ’s sacrifice. James
endorses works as a vital testament of one’s faith.

Why is there such a discrepancy between what some churches teach and the Gospel message? What a wonderful blessing when a veil is lifted and you suddenly understand a concept you previously hadn’t been able to wrap your
mind around!
Back in the Garden, what did Adam have before he disobeyed God? What
did he exchange? He had a personal relationship with God; God visited and
talked with Adam until sin separated them. What did Satan tell Eve?

“For God doth know that
in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be
opened, and ye shall be as
gods, knowing good and
evil” (Gen. 3:5).

This is Sunday School stuff. But people don’t connect this exchange with what happens in religion. Many Christians live out their faith through introspection, naval-gazing!
Some people just have a penchant for self-analysis, even me; I admit it. But many study the Old Testament to learn lessons of Christian character and
try to apply it to their lives—how to be a man of faith like Abraham or Moses, or how to be a woman of God like Esther.

But, you see, the forbidden tree in the Garden was not of evil; it was of the knowledge of both good and evil. When we work the knowledge of good and evil (this includes trying to be good), we are truly acting as gods, just as Satan promised.
We are acting on our own power, as a child looks to his parent and says, “I don’t
need your help; I can do it myself.” And then he proceeds to fall flat on his face.

But what does God want? Did He create the world so He could watch us be good? No. He wanted a relationship! From the
beginning of time, God yearned for a loving relationship. God gave Adam and Eve options because love is a choice. He wants us to eventually fall in love with Him, not to be inde- pendent beings.

But, how can we have a relationship with Him if we pass our days studying our-selves and trying to perfect our flaws?

“Having begunin the Spirit, are ye now
made perfect by the flesh?”
(Gal. 3:3).

After years of trying to perfect the flesh, many Christians get burned out or find that no matter how good they were, they still ran into bad circumstances beyond their control. You see, law-givers hold out the promise that bad behavior reaps bad consequences.
I do believe this law is built into God’s universe, just as the law of gravity; but, fol-
lowing that reason, one would conclude that good behavior will reap good con-
sequences.
This simply is not so in this third-dimension life. No matter how you give yourself to being faithful, honest, responsible, decent, kind and sinless, you are still going to find
heartache, trouble and despair in this life.

Where did you get the idea in your last paragraph (green) that if you obeyed God everything would be OK? The only way I can understand this is that if I don't smoke and respect my body,,,MAYBE I have a less chance of getting lung cancer.

And,,,,I've heard the blue many times.
What does it mean anyway?
How do I burn myself out pleasing God?
Isn't He supposed to be strengthening me for what I do in life?
What are works understood as by the non-workers?

And,,,for the purple...how do we have a good relationship if we don't love and if we don't obey?

This seems to be a main theme in Christianity today.
Maybe we've just become too selfish to want to do anything for God?

You sound like a thinker....
Looking forward to your reply.

 

[crossnote]

The ‘relationship’ the OP is referring to can be summed up here...

Romans 7:4 NKJV
[4] Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The ‘relationship’ the OP is referring to can be summed up here...

Romans 7:4 NKJV
[4] Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

How is it summed up?

We're dead to the law...
Paul is speaking about the Law of Moses.....
Agreed.

Is the moral law abolished?
No. This is common knowledge.
And, it does say that we should bear fruit to God.

I agree.

 

[crossnote]

How is it summed up?

We're dead to the law...
Paul is speaking about the Law of Moses.....
Agreed.

Is the moral law abolished?
No. This is common knowledge.
And, it does say that we should bear fruit to God.

I agree.

I never said the moral law is abolished...it is written on our hearts. But Romans 7 is referring to all law, even the moral law, as Paul uses coveteousness as an example. Rom 7 is highlighting our relationship to Christ having died to the law...we are alive to Him.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I never said the moral law is abolished...it is written on our hearts. But Romans 7 is referring to all law, even the moral law, as Paul uses coveteousness as an example. Rom 7 is highlighting our relationship to Christ having died to the law...we are alive to Him.

You believe Paul is also speaking to the moral law?
Will have to read that again....(Romans 7)
but later....

You might be referring to the adultery of faith...
??

 

[JaumeJ]

The works any do are works given by ou rFather. When any refer to works without knowing this it seems they do not know what works accompany faith……...

 

[crossnote]

You believe Paul is also speaking to the moral law?
Will have to read that again....(Romans 7)
??

Sure he is, here is the tip off, here...

Romans 7:7-8 NKJV
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." [8] But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

 

[crossnote]

Paul's point in Rom 7, is our effort at law keeping is futile, in producing righteousness, whether a believer or non believer. A new nature and God's indwelling Spirit is needed (working from the inside out) as further explained in Rom 8.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul tells purpose of the law in Gal 3. The purpose it was given was to lead Israel to Christ (We can be included in this also)

It was a tutor

It also has a set standard which must be followed (perfection, ie every word) and gives a pentalty for those who fail to live up to this standard (cursed of the law)

It was not given to show HOW to be righteous, for this reason, it has no power to do this, Yet we continually are told we MUST obey a law which was not given for that purpose anyway.

If people want to know how to live righteous morally good lives, Look to Jesus for the example. Listen to what he said, and what paul said (the law of love and seeking after the spirit)

Anyone who is trying to follow the law to be a good person has no bearing of what it looks like to be righteous.. Because the law was not given for that purpose.

 

[JaumeJ]

Paul also says in Romas that our faith establishes the law.

Jesus has taught us this in the three principles to always observe when understanding the law.....

If any one believes obeying God out of gratitude and love is being "undere the durse of the law, " they hav enot yet come to understand that after grace obedience is not only our due, it is our new natre, as described quite well in Ephesians.

Any law not building th final product of love and not containing faith, mercy and justice is not t be our concern, however all the remaining laws left by our Lord, Jesus make up love…….there is never a crime in love, and obeying laws that are of love is not our salvation, however disobeying on purpose would be living a sinful life, and dblaspheming our Salvation in Jesus, Yeshua.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul also says in Romas that our faith establishes the law.

Jesus has taught us this in the three principles to always observe when understanding the law.....

If any one believes obeying God out of gratitude and love is being "undere the durse of the law, " they hav enot yet come to understand that after grace obedience is not only our due, it is our new natre, as described quite well in Ephesians.

Any law not building th final product of love and not containing faith, mercy and justice is not t be our concern, however all the remaining laws left by our Lord, Jesus make up love…….there is never a crime in love, and obeying laws that are of love is not our salvation, however disobeying on purpose would be living a sinful life, and dblaspheming our Salvation in Jesus, Yeshua.

It does establish the law

The law leads us to faith. When one has faith in christ, He has established the law

Obedience to god is not following law (it was not given for that purpose) It is following christs example of putting all others above yoursellf in all ways.

Jesus did nto go around and say “What does the law say”

He went around saying who needs my services, How can I serve them, and went to his father to give him the power to serve them.

In doing this, HE fulfilled the law. And became our example

 

[Lanolin]

The fruits of the spirit...if you know what they are and bearing fruit, there is no law against them.

With many laws they just tell us what you should or should not do. Thats what laws are, rules. But how can there be a rule about bearing fruit, there isnt. When you bear fruit all you want to do is share them if youve got heaps of them. And they are good for everyone cos they taste good.

The thing about bearing fruit is if weve got the right seed, the word of God, we will have good fruit we cant produce anything else. How much fruit we bear depends on how good our soil is. Are their rules about preparing good soil? Not so much but I do know bad soil can be transformed with an application of dung (manure) and blood and bone.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

By Theresa Ferraro part 1

Through the grace of our Father and the instruction of the Holy Spirit, after an exhaustive conversation with a good friend and mentor, I came to an epiphany at the Kansas Weekend in the Word.
I’d had trouble recognizing law in general, anything outside of Moses’ Law. I wondered: Why should a Christian not try to live a good, clean life according to the Bible? It is the least one could do in appreciation of Christ’s sacrifice. James
endorses works as a vital testament of one’s faith.

Why is there such a discrepancy between what some churches teach and the Gospel message? What a wonderful blessing when a veil is lifted and you suddenly understand a concept you previously hadn’t been able to wrap your
mind around!
Back in the Garden, what did Adam have before he disobeyed God? What
did he exchange? He had a personal relationship with God; God visited and
talked with Adam until sin separated them. What did Satan tell Eve?

“For God doth know that
in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be
opened, and ye shall be as
gods, knowing good and
evil” (Gen. 3:5).

This is Sunday School stuff. But people don’t connect this exchange with what happens in religion. Many Christians live out their faith through introspection, naval-gazing!
Some people just have a penchant for self-analysis, even me; I admit it. But many study the Old Testament to learn lessons of Christian character and
try to apply it to their lives—how to be a man of faith like Abraham or Moses, or how to be a woman of God like Esther.

But, you see, the forbidden tree in the Garden was not of evil; it was of the knowledge of both good and evil. When we work the knowledge of good and evil (this includes trying to be good), we are truly acting as gods, just as Satan promised.
We are acting on our own power, as a child looks to his parent and says, “I don’t
need your help; I can do it myself.” And then he proceeds to fall flat on his face.

But what does God want? Did He create the world so He could watch us be good? No. He wanted a relationship! From the
beginning of time, God yearned for a loving relationship. God gave Adam and Eve options because love is a choice. He wants us to eventually fall in love with Him, not to be inde- pendent beings.

But, how can we have a relationship with Him if we pass our days studying our-selves and trying to perfect our flaws?

“Having begunin the Spirit, are ye now
made perfect by the flesh?”
(Gal. 3:3).

After years of trying to perfect the flesh, many Christians get burned out or find that no matter how good they were, they still ran into bad circumstances beyond their control. You see, law-givers hold out the promise that bad behavior reaps bad consequences.
I do believe this law is built into God’s universe, just as the law of gravity; but, fol-
lowing that reason, one would conclude that good behavior will reap good con-
sequences.
This simply is not so in this third-dimension life. No matter how you give yourself to being faithful, honest, responsible, decent, kind and sinless, you are still going to find
heartache, trouble and despair in this life.

I agree, God wants a relationship, that is what the cross is.

You are describing a conflict Paul struggled with in Romans.
It is the difference between being a child of God and trying to behave like one.

And the key issue is our hearts and faith. Do we believe God can change us and are we
willing to risk it all, give up and submit?

It is easy to perform rituals, to learn to say words that mean something. It is much harder
to speak from the heart. If we want a relationship with the King we need to stop defending
and speak from where we are and the heart.

Jesus wants to meet us, and for us to get up and start following.
Being emotionally open is critical, to be able to be broken and hurt, yet be healed, to let
Jesus overwhelm us, get up and walk on.

 

[JaumeJ]

The laws I have indicated are only those with mercy, justice and faith.

Do ñyou believe it is wrong to adhere to the law informing us we should return our enemy's lost stock or articles should we encounter them. I do not need that law inorder to follow it, because I do it anyway. Now yes the fruits of the Holy Spirit are mainly doing and not just saying God's Word, however I know by experinece tha tthere are gifts we receive when th Holy Spirit comes upon us to be used for God's works, healing, the gift of knowledge, a miracle etc...…...
These are actual tasks God will give willing servants when it is His will…….If you or any are stuck on a regimen dictaed in dead text without revelation by the HOly Spirit, it is something thagt should b e prayed about..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The laws I have indicated are only those with mercy, justice and faith.

Do ñyou believe it is wrong to adhere to the law informing us we should return our enemy's lost stock or articles should we encounter them. I do not need that law inorder to follow it, because I do it anyway. Now yes the fruits of the Holy Spirit are mainly doing and not just saying God's Word, however I know by experinece tha tthere are gifts we receive when th Holy Spirit comes upon us to be used for God's works, healing, the gift of knowledge, a miracle etc...…...
These are actual tasks God will give willing servants when it is His will…….If you or any are stuck on a regimen dictaed in dead text without revelation by the HOly Spirit, it is something thagt should b e prayed about..

I believe we obey those things because we Love God, and because we love the person.

That is what Jesus said, and that is what Paul said.

If we have to think of the law to do those things, we have serious issues. And we have more problems than just trying to be good.

 

[crossnote]

Paul also says in Romas that our faith establishes the law.

That's mainly because our faith is in the ONE who perfectly kept the law, not that our faith is meritorious in any way.
The law was established by God not by us fumbly-bumbly Christians lol.

 

[JesusLives]

When I think about the relationship part.... I think ahead to being again with God face to face and no more of this invisible stuff. The thing I look forward to the most after sin and death have been thrown into the lake of fire is that we will have that pure relationship with God.

Can you imagine a day in your life when there is no Satan or his evil angels tormenting us and whispering in our ears to tempt us to do something against God's will. A day in your life when all you want to do is please God and give glory to Him not even wanting to do anything wrong or selfish.

I personally long for a life like that where I can be in God's presence and never have to deal with sin again or hear the temptations coming at me constantly to do the wrong thing ever again....

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sure he is, here is the tip off, here...

Romans 7:7-8 NKJV
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." [8] But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

In post no. 5 you said the following:

I never said the moral law is abolished...it is written on our hearts. But Romans 7 is referring to all law,

First you said that the moral law is not abolished...it is written on the heart....this is right.
BUT,,, then you said Romans 7 is referring to ALL law.
This is a contradiction....
There's no way Paul could have ever stated that all the law is abolished.

So, I read Romans 7,,,which I already knew but wanted to see how you were understanding it.

Romans was written to Jews that believed in the Messiah. As in the book of Hebrews, they were finding it difficult to abandon THE LAW (613 laws) that they were used to and felt they might be making a mistake in the idea of believing in Christ.

As I thought and mentioned to you, Romans 7 is speaking about adultery of the faith..or of the law.

In verse 2 Paul illustrates with marriage.
Marriage represents THE LAW.
While they were under the law....this was all there was. The Law was the "husband".

Now The Law (of Moses) is no longer binding...it's like a husband dying....the wife is made free.
Free for what? To marry someone else...which, in this case, is referring to Grace.

The Law had died,,,,and grace has taken it's place.
It's OK to trust in Christ....He is the "new" Law.
Grace is the new Law.

Paul tells the Jews that they are married to the One who rose from the dead so that they could produce good fruit,,,that is,,,good deeds for God.

Verse 6 explains that now the Jews could worship God with all of their heart and mind, and not mechanically, like in the old way.

The moral law will NEVER be abolished.
God is love.
God is justice.
God is morality.

The moral law (10 commandments) cannot be separated from God.
HE IS THE MORAL LAW.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I never said the moral law is abolished...it is written on our hearts. But Romans 7 is referring to all law, even the moral law, as Paul uses coveteousness as an example. Rom 7 is highlighting our relationship to Christ having died to the law...we are alive to Him.

Then there is that pesky next verse in Romans 8:1 that brings Paul’s thoughts in chapter 7 to an apex of razor sharp clarity of undeniably truth.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1




JPT