Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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There are two aspects to this idea.
One is in this world we will find persecution from which we must hide and protect ourselves.
The other side is God will judge the world.
I watch a talk about what a nuclear winter means to the planet.
A drop in food production to 10% of its current output.
The world starves to death, with 90% death rate.
So what is the answer. Become fatalistic or engage with the power Christ gives us to share
love and understanding, the ability to get alongside people and show them Gods love.
We will all die one day or see Christ return. We are called to be the people of the light and
keep our focus on Him and His Kingdom. This is where our heart is.
The book of revelations is about judgement and final resolution. It is both awesome and
fearful, but also just and declaring the ultimate victory. But only for those who overcome.
And this is the point, when believers do not see Jesus calls us to be over comers, it is build a
bomb shelter and hide. The world should have died in the 1960's 1970's 1980's etc.
Welcome to the world of coffin builders......
One is in this world we will find persecution from which we must hide and protect ourselves.
The other side is God will judge the world.
I watch a talk about what a nuclear winter means to the planet.
A drop in food production to 10% of its current output.
The world starves to death, with 90% death rate.
So what is the answer. Become fatalistic or engage with the power Christ gives us to share
love and understanding, the ability to get alongside people and show them Gods love.
We will all die one day or see Christ return. We are called to be the people of the light and
keep our focus on Him and His Kingdom. This is where our heart is.
The book of revelations is about judgement and final resolution. It is both awesome and
fearful, but also just and declaring the ultimate victory. But only for those who overcome.
And this is the point, when believers do not see Jesus calls us to be over comers, it is build a
bomb shelter and hide. The world should have died in the 1960's 1970's 1980's etc.
Welcome to the world of coffin builders......
Shouts of joy and victory resound in the tents of the righteous: "The LORD's right hand has done mighty things!
The LORD's right hand is lifted high; the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"
I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the LORD has done.
Psalm 118:15-17
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1 John 5:1-6
The enemy hates one thing above all, the victory of Gods people and resting in the Lords
arms, knowing in Him none can touch us.
You will notice how the conversation has gone onto the rise of the anti-Christ and how the surge
of the people of God is just the enemy coming.
Begone in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, for in Him we have the victory over sin and death,
and the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it.
Great is His blessing, the Lord Most High anoints and inspire His people to rise up and share the light
of life and dispel the doom and gloom of darkness, using fear and the fear of the enemies dominance.
Thank you Jesus we are born of your Spirit and reign with you in the heavenlies, Amen
The LORD's right hand is lifted high; the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"
I will not die but live, and will proclaim what the LORD has done.
Psalm 118:15-17
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1 John 5:1-6
The enemy hates one thing above all, the victory of Gods people and resting in the Lords
arms, knowing in Him none can touch us.
You will notice how the conversation has gone onto the rise of the anti-Christ and how the surge
of the people of God is just the enemy coming.
Begone in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, for in Him we have the victory over sin and death,
and the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it.
Great is His blessing, the Lord Most High anoints and inspire His people to rise up and share the light
of life and dispel the doom and gloom of darkness, using fear and the fear of the enemies dominance.
Thank you Jesus we are born of your Spirit and reign with you in the heavenlies, Amen
This verse is often misinterpreted by works-salvationists who imply that Paul is teaching there are Christians who have faith, but no hope or love, so they won't be saved, yet that is NOT the point that Paul is making here. If someone has truly placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and has received the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for them to have NO hope or love at all. Paul uses hyperbole (obvious and intentional exaggeration) about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love.
These works salvationists you speak of, who are only doing as the N.T. teaches, seem to misinterpret the entire N.T. It seems as though nothing is as simple as it seems.
Can the unsaved work for God?
Can the unsaved love in a Godly manner?
Can the unsaved hope for a future glorification?
NO.
Then why keep bringing up the fact that works, love, hope, are for the born-again Christian?
If someone is a Christian he WILL have faith, hope, and love. It comes naturally if one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
So, we seem to agree.
And thanks for explaining what hyperbole means...I just NEVER would have known....
Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are still saved through faith, not faith plus love/acts of charity. Paul is stressing that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary throughout eternity, love will still be the governing principle that controls everything that God and his redeemed people/saints are and do. We will not need faith and hope throughout eternity in our glorified bodies in the presence of the Lord.
Up above you said that if one is a Christian, he WILL have faith, hope and love. Have you changed your mind already? Faith saves us....love and hope SHOULD come right on its heels. If it doesn't, would you say there's a problem? (all things being equal). Like obedience,,,shouldn't obedience come right on its heels? What does Lord mean, anyway? Do you need Greek to know it means master?
I agree with the rest, and all Christians I know understand this. About faith and hope not being necessary after glorification....
Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity or without having "enough" hope. If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things HOPED for. Titus 3:7 - So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.
Since you brought up the Greek,,,I'm sure you know that HOPE has different meanings for different verses in the O.T. and the N.T.
In Romans 8:24 it IS factor in salvation:
"Hope" is a factor in salvation, Rom 8:24; it finds its expression in endurance under trial, which is the effect of waiting for the coming of Christ,
source: http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=HOPE&dict=vine&lang=english
This is a very good source for the study of Greek, BTW.
So although Paul is stressing the importance of love, he is not teaching salvation through faith + love, as if we could produce "enough" acts of charity to merit eternal life. All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because believers have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)
You worry too much about QUANTITY instead of QUALITY.
This is a needless worry and born again Christians should know this and not have to bring it up all the time....It reminds me of that silly question some ask: HOW MANY works are necessary? Your whole life is a work for God.
The rest is true...of course.
These works salvationists you speak of, who are only doing as the N.T. teaches, seem to misinterpret the entire N.T. It seems as though nothing is as simple as it seems.
Can the unsaved work for God?
Can the unsaved love in a Godly manner?
Can the unsaved hope for a future glorification?
NO.
Then why keep bringing up the fact that works, love, hope, are for the born-again Christian?
If someone is a Christian he WILL have faith, hope, and love. It comes naturally if one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
So, we seem to agree.
And thanks for explaining what hyperbole means...I just NEVER would have known....
Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are still saved through faith, not faith plus love/acts of charity. Paul is stressing that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary throughout eternity, love will still be the governing principle that controls everything that God and his redeemed people/saints are and do. We will not need faith and hope throughout eternity in our glorified bodies in the presence of the Lord.
Up above you said that if one is a Christian, he WILL have faith, hope and love. Have you changed your mind already? Faith saves us....love and hope SHOULD come right on its heels. If it doesn't, would you say there's a problem? (all things being equal). Like obedience,,,shouldn't obedience come right on its heels? What does Lord mean, anyway? Do you need Greek to know it means master?
I agree with the rest, and all Christians I know understand this. About faith and hope not being necessary after glorification....
Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity or without having "enough" hope. If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things HOPED for. Titus 3:7 - So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.
Since you brought up the Greek,,,I'm sure you know that HOPE has different meanings for different verses in the O.T. and the N.T.
In Romans 8:24 it IS factor in salvation:
"Hope" is a factor in salvation, Rom 8:24; it finds its expression in endurance under trial, which is the effect of waiting for the coming of Christ,
source: http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=HOPE&dict=vine&lang=english
This is a very good source for the study of Greek, BTW.
So although Paul is stressing the importance of love, he is not teaching salvation through faith + love, as if we could produce "enough" acts of charity to merit eternal life. All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because believers have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)
You worry too much about QUANTITY instead of QUALITY.
This is a needless worry and born again Christians should know this and not have to bring it up all the time....It reminds me of that silly question some ask: HOW MANY works are necessary? Your whole life is a work for God.
The rest is true...of course.
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mmd,
Thank you for admitting there are more than one interpretation of keeping Gods commandments.
I hope you know love, love that breaks and molds who we are.
When someone you love is taken, it is like part of you has been chopped out of you.
It is like we are built on these foundations, how we define ourselves though we are not aware of it.
At this point we realise how precious some are to us and we would not want to harm any.
Jesus is saying this is how He feels about all, if they are prepared to become friends and not enemies.
So how can we who have become like Jesus then want to harm others and see problems continue.
It is this love in our hearts as it grows that changes everything in our lives. As Jesus's eternal words
dwell within us and become clearer, we do the fruits of the words and our hearts raise in their eternal
song of Praise, Worthy is the Lamb.
Now to His people this is just their testimony, expressed in Gods word. It is not learnt, as so much lived.
But then those who desire to make Gods word fit their hearts, they will always sing a different song than
the love song to their Lord. When the disciples realised this, they could write their words into scripture.
Thank you for admitting there are more than one interpretation of keeping Gods commandments.
I hope you know love, love that breaks and molds who we are.
When someone you love is taken, it is like part of you has been chopped out of you.
It is like we are built on these foundations, how we define ourselves though we are not aware of it.
At this point we realise how precious some are to us and we would not want to harm any.
Jesus is saying this is how He feels about all, if they are prepared to become friends and not enemies.
So how can we who have become like Jesus then want to harm others and see problems continue.
It is this love in our hearts as it grows that changes everything in our lives. As Jesus's eternal words
dwell within us and become clearer, we do the fruits of the words and our hearts raise in their eternal
song of Praise, Worthy is the Lamb.
Now to His people this is just their testimony, expressed in Gods word. It is not learnt, as so much lived.
But then those who desire to make Gods word fit their hearts, they will always sing a different song than
the love song to their Lord. When the disciples realised this, they could write their words into scripture.
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Faith, ok, hope, ok.
Love, WHAT?
So much talk about love in the Bible, yet the word is never defined. I know the verse that says love is not boastful love is patient love is kind and all that. But when you read the Bible you quickly notice, God is not about that lovey dovey lifestyle we think of when we say love. Hell is proof of that, as are the numerous plagues and just the fact that God even allowed humans to be born into this world, in which mililons die and suffer immensely from birth (usually starvation or poor teeth hygiene)
So WHAT does the Bible mean when it speaks of God's love? We know it means Jesus dying on the cross for our sins to save us from hell, BUT dose it mean something else toO?
We are asked to love by turning the other cheek, doing good to those who persecute, not revenge. But God isnt asked to do the same because it says LEAVE the vengeance to the LORD, the Lord will repay. <- meaning God can revenge, but we cant!
Love, WHAT?
So much talk about love in the Bible, yet the word is never defined. I know the verse that says love is not boastful love is patient love is kind and all that. But when you read the Bible you quickly notice, God is not about that lovey dovey lifestyle we think of when we say love. Hell is proof of that, as are the numerous plagues and just the fact that God even allowed humans to be born into this world, in which mililons die and suffer immensely from birth (usually starvation or poor teeth hygiene)
So WHAT does the Bible mean when it speaks of God's love? We know it means Jesus dying on the cross for our sins to save us from hell, BUT dose it mean something else toO?
We are asked to love by turning the other cheek, doing good to those who persecute, not revenge. But God isnt asked to do the same because it says LEAVE the vengeance to the LORD, the Lord will repay. <- meaning God can revenge, but we cant!
God will repay with justice....man doesn't know much about justice.
How many innocent persons are in prison? And how many that should be there are out doing their evil work? What justice? Children are killed by their very parents that are supposed to protect them and care for them.
And let's not forget that everyone will get what he wants...
Those going to be with God,,,,want to be with God.
Those going away from God....do NOT want to be with God.
As to love...
What is love?
Love is doing the right thing.
When we marry we should have different kinds of love...
Philos love....eros love....and agape love....all are necessary for a life-long relationship.
But for those we don't have to live with love means:
respecting them as a person
doing the right thing by them
offering our very selves when they ask
maybe you could offer some more ideas......
I've found that it's perfectly possible to dislike someone, but love them.
I could dislike someone for the mistreatment they've given me..or their personality in general which grates against mine....or other reasons..
But I could still love them as God would want...
I could respect them...the fact that they're a human like me, and we have the same experiences in life.
I could treat them right and not return what they do to me....
If they ask for help, I'm asked by God to help them, and this I try to do.
(I find instead, on this forum, that some claim to like me,
but the problem is that they do not love me...which is the opposite)
How many innocent persons are in prison? And how many that should be there are out doing their evil work? What justice? Children are killed by their very parents that are supposed to protect them and care for them.
And let's not forget that everyone will get what he wants...
Those going to be with God,,,,want to be with God.
Those going away from God....do NOT want to be with God.
As to love...
What is love?
Love is doing the right thing.
When we marry we should have different kinds of love...
Philos love....eros love....and agape love....all are necessary for a life-long relationship.
But for those we don't have to live with love means:
respecting them as a person
doing the right thing by them
offering our very selves when they ask
maybe you could offer some more ideas......
I've found that it's perfectly possible to dislike someone, but love them.
I could dislike someone for the mistreatment they've given me..or their personality in general which grates against mine....or other reasons..
But I could still love them as God would want...
I could respect them...the fact that they're a human like me, and we have the same experiences in life.
I could treat them right and not return what they do to me....
If they ask for help, I'm asked by God to help them, and this I try to do.
(I find instead, on this forum, that some claim to like me,
but the problem is that they do not love me...which is the opposite)
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The problem with justice, true judgement it needs to come from a place of purity and innocence, holiness.
We cannot judge because we are sinners who are distorted by our sin and our history.
The source of all is the only being capable of true absolute judgement.
Love is also difficult. Love is intending the best for any individual, yet when all hope is lost for change or
restitution, then destruction is the only alternative. This view that there is a point of hopelessness, separates
universalists from believers. It has led to ideas about purgatory, or reincarnation, or replaying existence, as if
this changes the outcomes. What the Lord is declaring in existence there those who will connect with Him and
those who will not. Without this connection and living in our hearts we are lost, forever, and like a dried branch
only ready for the fire.
So the extreme grace group do not believe Gods presence changes us fundamentally.
I now see this is just unbelief and simply not truly walking in the things of God.
How could the Lord honour a people who denies His love as a Father and as our Lord.
But this is the problem of growing up so close to faith, that the true nature of sin and lostness
is not really seen, only a mirage of being in God, while never grasping its reality.
Preachers call this second generation or third generation believers. By the third generation it is
more formalism and belonging to a social group than real experience.
What we seem to have is those who reject the emotions of the heart and being cleansed founding
their faith on ideas, with an emphasis on "facts" and not their hearts or a relationship that is alive
and a clean conscience or freedom from guilt. Now to me this is just a head knowledge which has
no value in the realm of the eternal and the Kingdom and will fade in trauma and true tests of faith.
We cannot judge because we are sinners who are distorted by our sin and our history.
The source of all is the only being capable of true absolute judgement.
Love is also difficult. Love is intending the best for any individual, yet when all hope is lost for change or
restitution, then destruction is the only alternative. This view that there is a point of hopelessness, separates
universalists from believers. It has led to ideas about purgatory, or reincarnation, or replaying existence, as if
this changes the outcomes. What the Lord is declaring in existence there those who will connect with Him and
those who will not. Without this connection and living in our hearts we are lost, forever, and like a dried branch
only ready for the fire.
So the extreme grace group do not believe Gods presence changes us fundamentally.
I now see this is just unbelief and simply not truly walking in the things of God.
How could the Lord honour a people who denies His love as a Father and as our Lord.
But this is the problem of growing up so close to faith, that the true nature of sin and lostness
is not really seen, only a mirage of being in God, while never grasping its reality.
Preachers call this second generation or third generation believers. By the third generation it is
more formalism and belonging to a social group than real experience.
What we seem to have is those who reject the emotions of the heart and being cleansed founding
their faith on ideas, with an emphasis on "facts" and not their hearts or a relationship that is alive
and a clean conscience or freedom from guilt. Now to me this is just a head knowledge which has
no value in the realm of the eternal and the Kingdom and will fade in trauma and true tests of faith.
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Let’s start with the basic biblical definition of God’s love.
God is Love.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:8
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3
Obeying God because He knows all things and knows the outcome of every action of every person, and loves each of us unconditionally and doesn’t desire any of His Children to suffer because of the actions of others is important to keep in mind.
However, because He loves us, he gives us a free will to choose.
JPT
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Then you believe like I do, and it is also called Jacob's Trouble. Here is the exact moment when the 144,000 shall flee Jerusalem, through the newly formed VALLEY when HIS feet touch the MOUNT OF OLIVES, splitting it in two. Yes I believe that will be LITERAL.
We will be CALLED to Heaven Seven years before, to go the WEDDING OF THE LAMB.
Zechariah 14:1-21 (HCSB)
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him. [.That includes us, after the Wedding of the Lamb in the new dwelling place in HEAVEN, that HE has built for us. So how do we get back and forth to our new dwelling place in heaven ? ? ? Perhaps that is why the story of JACOBS LADDER, is in the BIBLE. Oh, by the way, NOTICE the TIMING of the NEXT VERSE. SO MANY FALSE TEACHING about the timing about the day, with NO sunlight and moonlight. IT CLEARLY IS THE BEGINNING OF WHEN CHRIST MAKES WAR ON THE NATIONS.]
6 On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
7 It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
10 All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
11 People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.
12 This will be the plague the LORD strikes all the peoples with, who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
13 On that day a great panic from the LORD will be among them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of one will rise against the other.
14 Judah will also fight at Jerusalem, and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected: gold, silver, and clothing in great abundance.
15 The same plague as the previous one will strike the horses, mules, camels, donkeys, and all the animals that are in those camps.
16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
17 Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, rain will not fall on them.
18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter, then rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague the LORD inflicts on the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
20 On that day, ⌊the words⌋ HOLY TO THE LORD will be on the bells of the horses. The pots in the house of the LORD will be like the sprinkling basins before the altar.
21 Every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of Hosts. Everyone who sacrifices will come and take some of the pots to cook in. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of Hosts.
ALL OF THAT WILL LITERALLY HAPPEN.
We will be CALLED to Heaven Seven years before, to go the WEDDING OF THE LAMB.
Zechariah 14:1-21 (HCSB)
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him. [.That includes us, after the Wedding of the Lamb in the new dwelling place in HEAVEN, that HE has built for us. So how do we get back and forth to our new dwelling place in heaven ? ? ? Perhaps that is why the story of JACOBS LADDER, is in the BIBLE. Oh, by the way, NOTICE the TIMING of the NEXT VERSE. SO MANY FALSE TEACHING about the timing about the day, with NO sunlight and moonlight. IT CLEARLY IS THE BEGINNING OF WHEN CHRIST MAKES WAR ON THE NATIONS.]
6 On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
7 It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
10 All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
11 People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.
12 This will be the plague the LORD strikes all the peoples with, who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
13 On that day a great panic from the LORD will be among them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of one will rise against the other.
14 Judah will also fight at Jerusalem, and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected: gold, silver, and clothing in great abundance.
15 The same plague as the previous one will strike the horses, mules, camels, donkeys, and all the animals that are in those camps.
16 Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
17 Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, rain will not fall on them.
18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter, then rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague the LORD inflicts on the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
20 On that day, ⌊the words⌋ HOLY TO THE LORD will be on the bells of the horses. The pots in the house of the LORD will be like the sprinkling basins before the altar.
21 Every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of Hosts. Everyone who sacrifices will come and take some of the pots to cook in. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of Hosts.
ALL OF THAT WILL LITERALLY HAPPEN.
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E
I agree, those things will literally happen
Not sure when the 144000 are saved. I think it is right after the man of sin is revealed. I believe God uses them and the two witnesses as a means to draw people to himself. I personally believe many will be saved during the tribulation. And live till the end and enter the 1000 years with Christ himself when he returns.
Not sure when the 144000 are saved. I think it is right after the man of sin is revealed. I believe God uses them and the two witnesses as a means to draw people to himself. I personally believe many will be saved during the tribulation. And live till the end and enter the 1000 years with Christ himself when he returns.
Hi EG,
Yes, you may always ask me where I got a definition.
In the scriptures, there are times when elders or judges would sit at the city gates and hear and decide legal matters - for example in the Book of Ruth when Boaz redeemed the inheritance of Ruth's dead husband.
Ruth 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I will redeem it.
Yes, you may always ask me where I got a definition.
In the scriptures, there are times when elders or judges would sit at the city gates and hear and decide legal matters - for example in the Book of Ruth when Boaz redeemed the inheritance of Ruth's dead husband.
Ruth 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I will redeem it.
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GG
I went back to look at posts. Was bothered by you asking about giving you an old. That was an accident. It's an easy thing to do on my iPad as I'm scrolling down. So sorry I didn't catch it.
I don't normally give negative reactions to anyone. Can't remember if I ever did so if anyone has received one from me, was on the iPad.
Am old you know. Lol..
I went back to look at posts. Was bothered by you asking about giving you an old. That was an accident. It's an easy thing to do on my iPad as I'm scrolling down. So sorry I didn't catch it.
I don't normally give negative reactions to anyone. Can't remember if I ever did so if anyone has received one from me, was on the iPad.
Am old you know. Lol..
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Okay, I gave you a chance to ANSWER the question: What Is Born Again?
And all you can come up with is VAGUE answers.
Born Again, happens when you out of a WILLING, LOVING HEART (human spirit), surrender totally to CHRIST as LORD, Meaning MASTER. NO AND'S, IF'S, OR MAYBE'S, I mean TOTALLY SURRENDER TO HIM, an you will understand and KNOW you will NEVER TAKE IT BACK.
The reason I am convinced that YOU have never been Born Again, IS YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of certain words. Those words you have to have the HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU, to give you Spiritual Understanding, such as your recent LACK of understanding the recent word we DISCUSSED PERFECTION, where you admitted you do not understand what GOD meant by Perfection. You apparently do not understand the word DISCIPLESHIP either, as I believe, GOD has sent us to you, to disciple you. I have noticed the words with DEEP SPIRITUAL MEANINGS, you just go off into Left Field, thinking you know what they mean, when it is obvious they are foreign to you.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (NIV)
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
There are many words that requires you to be BORN AGAIN, before you can understand them. But FIRST you have to OPEN the door to your Human Spirit (your heart), and let HIM IN. He stands at the door and KNOCKS, but HE will not kick the door in. When You can totally surrender to HIM as LORD, meaning MASTER, HE will come in. BUT HE will not respond to a partial Surrender, HE WANTS ALL OF YOU.
So when you are ready to really SURRENDER it all, it brings deep conviction of SIN. I cried, deep mournful tears for Hours, realizing my whole lifestyle was an offense to HIM. So WHAT happens when the Holy Spirit comes in ? ? ? HE BIRTHS your Human Spirit into eternal life. You will realize that You now have a spiritual mind in your Human Spirit and a Carnal Mind between your ears, and yes they will be at war at first, but I can promise you that the Spiritual Mind will become DOMINATE as you feed on the WORD. HE pours GOD's LOVE directly into your human spirit, and that is like a seed in the good soil of your HEART. HE will give you SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING, as you Spiritually MATURE. HE will make you aware of HOW YOU CAN SERVE HIM, and I am not talking about just OBEDIENCE. YOU will realize that as you TOTALLY YIELD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, the MORE you will Walk in the Spirit.
Please COME to HIM! I beg you to COME!
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Yes, gates represent "power and authority to make binding decisions that are to be obeyed."
Yeshua/Jesus has the keys to Hades - the keys to the gates of hell........ God gives us the gates of our enemies.
Genesis 22:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Only Yeshua/Jesus can enter the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the Kingdom of God.
Yeshua/Jesus has the keys to Hades - the keys to the gates of hell........ God gives us the gates of our enemies.
Genesis 22:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Only Yeshua/Jesus can enter the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the Kingdom of God.
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E
Yes, gates represent "power and authority to make binding decisions that are to be obeyed."
Yeshua/Jesus has the keys to Hades - the keys to the gates of hell........ God gives us the gates of our enemies.
Genesis 22:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Only Yeshua/Jesus can enter the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the Kingdom of God.
Yeshua/Jesus has the keys to Hades - the keys to the gates of hell........ God gives us the gates of our enemies.
Genesis 22:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Only Yeshua/Jesus can enter the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the Kingdom of God.
I was always taught this meant that the powers of hell will never be able to overpower the church, the gate here is an offensive weapon. (This is prety much the catholic view also(
But when I thought of it, A gate is not an offensive weapon. It is hard for us to see, because we do not have city gates. But back in the day jesus said these words, City gates were common knowledge, They was used to keep the enemy out, and its citizens safe. If tghe city ruler was evil, and enslaved its people. The city gates were used to keep those sent to rescue the people out.
Hell in context I believe is the world. The world is like a city, And satan is its evil ruler.
God has sent the church to enter those gates, and go out on mission of rescue, to rescue people and bring them out of that city into the kingdom of God.
So in context. I see jesus saying the gates of hell (the defense Satan uses to keep his people enslaved) will not prevail. That they will not keep us out, that Jesus swill go with us, and we will help him rescue people from outside of that “city” ruled by satan, who has enslaved his people.
I see where you are getting judge, But I am not sure I can take that out of this passage. Which is why I asked, Arer they the same Gates.
One could say the gates of jerusalem was to keep people safe, where as the gates of hell is to keep people enslaved. So I believe they are not the same.
However I will still consider what you said and look up on it.
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