Exchanging Relationship For Works

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2019

This does nt do as you think it does. And it is not a pesky verse at all

All it says there is no condemnation of those in christ. The rest of the verse (if it is even scripture) is just a “descriptive” saying. Nothing more nothing less.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

Are you saying the moral law is abolished?

Romans 7:7-8 is just saying that before the 10 commandments man did not know he was sinning.
You could pass a red light 100X,,,,if you don't know it's against the law...you don't worry about it.

But one day you find out it's illegal....
so now you know that you've broken the law.

Paul clearly states in verse 7 that the law is not evil,,,the law is not sinful.
BUT it was the law that showed Paul his sin...
Paul said he never would have known that the thoughts and desires in his heart were sin if the law had not stated that they were, in fact, sin.

OTOH, if there's no law to break...there's no sin.
No traffic laws,,,no breaking the laws.

(The N.T. does state that sin existed anyway, however)
Romans 5:13 (but we are not imputed the sin before the law existed).

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

In post no. 5 you said the following:

I never said the moral law is abolished...it is written on our hearts. But Romans 7 is referring to all law,

First you said that the moral law is not abolished...it is written on the heart....this is right.
BUT,,, then you said Romans 7 is referring to ALL law.
This is a contradiction....
There's no way Paul could have ever stated that all the law is abolished.

So, I read Romans 7,,,which I already knew but wanted to see how you were understanding it.

Romans was written to Jews that believed in the Messiah. As in the book of Hebrews, they were finding it difficult to abandon THE LAW (613 laws) that they were used to and felt they might be making a mistake in the idea of believing in Christ.

As I thought and mentioned to you, Romans 7 is speaking about adultery of the faith..or of the law.

In verse 2 Paul illustrates with marriage.
Marriage represents THE LAW.
While they were under the law....this was all there was. The Law was the "husband".

Now The Law (of Moses) is no longer binding...it's like a husband dying....the wife is made free.
Free for what? To marry someone else...which, in this case, is referring to Grace.

The Law had died,,,,and grace has taken it's place.
It's OK to trust in Christ....He is the "new" Law.
Grace is the new Law.

Paul tells the Jews that they are married to the One who rose from the dead so that they could produce good fruit,,,that is,,,good deeds for God.

Verse 6 explains that now the Jews could worship God with all of their heart and mind, and not mechanically, like in the old way.

The moral law will NEVER be abolished.
God is love.
God is justice.
God is morality.

The moral law (10 commandments) cannot be separated from God.
HE IS THE MORAL LAW.

In Christ we died to the law, both moral and otherwise, but through the new birth God's living law (think God's nature) has been written afresh on our hearts (Jer 31). Sorry you can't see that.

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

Rom 8:1 ending belongs at verse 4 not verse 1. There is no condemnation for those IN Christ Jesus and it parallels with John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, -- He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
That additional claus was a scribal error and would contradict Jn 5:24.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

What does Mathew 5:17 mean to you?
Mathew 5:18
Mathew 5:20

What does Mathew 22:36-40 mean to you?
36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38“This is the great and foremost commandment.
39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

In the above verses, JESUS is speaking about two great commandments.

And yet you say the moral law has been abolished...
Could you support your claim, please.

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

No, it is written on our hearts through the new birth we have His nature. We need His power though while we are still in the flesh.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

1. Nothing changes no matter what the scribe wrote by mistake.
The meaning remains the same.
Scribes made many different types of mistakes...
But God is good....
none of them changes the meaning of the N.T.

The N.T. states nowhere that the moral law is abolished....
unless you can show it....

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

Well crossnote,

I plan on being on this thead for a while...
so, let me ask you a very simple question.....

IS THE MORAL LAW ABOLISHED?

I believe all of us here know the bible well enough to understand that the law has been placed in our heart as Jeremiah stated...But you swing from one idea to another....

So,,, please answer the above question with a simple yes or no.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

P.S.

You have ATTRIBUTES of God....
Let me assure you that you DO NOT
have the NATURE OF GOD.

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Start over and take a breath. I never said the moral law was abolished. Quit misrepresenting me. Christ fulfilled the law in our stead and renews us through faith. Our new nature desires what God desires.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2019

Can the moral law make us morally good people?

Was it made for that purpose?

Why is it called week? And a “Burden the jews could not follow?”

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Attributes like all knowing? All powerful? Naww, but we do have a new nature...His nature, which the law reflects.

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

In Rom 7 Paul makes no distinction between the moral/ceremonial/societal law, but he uses an example from the 10 Commandments which I take as part of the moral law. We died to that, in that our relationship is now to Christ and not the law. But in that relationship the fruit of righteousness will be more than that of the scribes and pharisees.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

I'm pretty good at not misquoting persons.

Here's what you said: post no. 23

In Christ we died to the law, both moral and otherwise, but through the new birth God's living law (think God's nature) has been written afresh on our hearts (Jer 31). Sorry you can't see that.

We are dead to the civil and ceremonial law....
but we are not dead to the moral law...

In post. 23 you said we're dead to all the laws...this is not so.
The very fact that you state it is now written on the heart is what was confusing...

So,
can we agree that the
CIVIL
CEREMONIAL laws are abolished...

BUT

the MORAL LAW is in effect to this day....

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

He makes an example from the 10 commandments because it was used as an example...
not because Paul believes the moral law is abolished. (the 10 commandments).

Just before you said the moral law is not abolished...
now you revert back to saying it is because Paul used it as an example.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!

GodsGrace101 · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

Oh my.

HIS NATURE IS:
OMNIPOTENT
OMNISCIENT
OMNIPRESENT

Those are not attributes...

The attributes we get from God because we're made in His image are things like:

having love
creating a family
being social creatures
Having a sense of justice....

And,,,of course, as born again persons...we have a new nature...a nature in tune with God's spirit,,,

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

justpassinthrough · Mar 6, 2019

crossnote said:

That’s funny.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Nothing contradicts anything in the Bible once you see the context.

Those in Christ must choose to walk according to the Spirit who dwells within our inner man, rather than walk according to the flesh.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Again

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

Furthermore, Born again Christians who are in Christ Jesus are instructed to abide (remain) in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how the scriptures teach us to abide in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,

JPT

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

That’s funny.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Nothing contradicts anything in the Bible once you see the context.

Those in Christ must choose to walk according to the Spirit who dwells within our inner man, rather than walk according to the flesh.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Again

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

Furthermore, Born again Christians who are in Christ Jesus are instructed to abide (remain) in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how the scriptures teach us to abide in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,

JPT

Some people just love to add to the word of God.

MUST is not found anyplace in romans 8: 1. It says they DO.

I agree with Crossnote, it does not belong there, But again, Even if it does. It does not say what this person keeps saying it does.

it would be called a DESCRIPTIVE passage. Not a directive passage.

7seasrekeyed · Mar 6, 2019

Noblemen said:

By Theresa Ferraro part 1

Through the grace of our Father and the instruction of the Holy Spirit, after an exhaustive conversation with a good friend and mentor, I came to an epiphany at the Kansas Weekend in the Word.
I’d had trouble recognizing law in general, anything outside of Moses’ Law. I wondered: Why should a Christian not try to live a good, clean life according to the Bible? It is the least one could do in appreciation of Christ’s sacrifice. James
endorses works as a vital testament of one’s faith.

Why is there such a discrepancy between what some churches teach and the Gospel message? What a wonderful blessing when a veil is lifted and you suddenly understand a concept you previously hadn’t been able to wrap your
mind around!
Back in the Garden, what did Adam have before he disobeyed God? What
did he exchange? He had a personal relationship with God; God visited and
talked with Adam until sin separated them. What did Satan tell Eve?

“For God doth know that
in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be
opened, and ye shall be as
gods, knowing good and
evil” (Gen. 3:5).

This is Sunday School stuff. But people don’t connect this exchange with what happens in religion. Many Christians live out their faith through introspection, naval-gazing!
Some people just have a penchant for self-analysis, even me; I admit it. But many study the Old Testament to learn lessons of Christian character and
try to apply it to their lives—how to be a man of faith like Abraham or Moses, or how to be a woman of God like Esther.

But, you see, the forbidden tree in the Garden was not of evil; it was of the knowledge of both good and evil. When we work the knowledge of good and evil (this includes trying to be good), we are truly acting as gods, just as Satan promised.
We are acting on our own power, as a child looks to his parent and says, “I don’t
need your help; I can do it myself.” And then he proceeds to fall flat on his face.

But what does God want? Did He create the world so He could watch us be good? No. He wanted a relationship! From the
beginning of time, God yearned for a loving relationship. God gave Adam and Eve options because love is a choice. He wants us to eventually fall in love with Him, not to be inde- pendent beings.

But, how can we have a relationship with Him if we pass our days studying our-selves and trying to perfect our flaws?

“Having begunin the Spirit, are ye now
made perfect by the flesh?”
(Gal. 3:3).

After years of trying to perfect the flesh, many Christians get burned out or find that no matter how good they were, they still ran into bad circumstances beyond their control. You see, law-givers hold out the promise that bad behavior reaps bad consequences.
I do believe this law is built into God’s universe, just as the law of gravity; but, fol-
lowing that reason, one would conclude that good behavior will reap good con-
sequences.
This simply is not so in this third-dimension life. No matter how you give yourself to being faithful, honest, responsible, decent, kind and sinless, you are still going to find
heartache, trouble and despair in this life.

some really good points brought up here and reasoning in agreement with scripture

in this world, we even suffer for the sins of others against us

there is no law to fix that or mend broken hearts.

particularly like this:

crossnote · Mar 6, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Where did I say in any of that that the law was abolished as you said I said?
We are dead to the law in our relationship to Christ as that is what Scripture says...

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Rom 7:4

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal 2:19

The moral law is in effect and it's purpose is to convict of sin...not produce righteousness in us.

I guess you just like to argue.

Exchanging Relationship For Works

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