The Great Tribulation VS The Rapture Debate

[AxeElf]

I'm not arguing any math equations either way, mind you, but I'm not sure how you can say the sentence in bold ^ , above.

I can think of at least 12 random things off the top of my head that (in the gospels) speak to His Second Coming to the earth and the circumstances that will surround that:

--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages

--"the kingdom of the heavens" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)

--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages (ditto the above; referred to in a few different passages)

--the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" of Matt8:11 and its parallel

--the entire Olivet Discourse (except for the section of Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad), so Matt24-25/Mk13/Lk21

--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" references of Lk18:8[chpt-17-end], [also Romans 16:20 and Rev1:1/22:6] (specific limited future time period leading UP TO the earthly MK, which will commence at His Second Coming to the earth)

--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (also Matt24:3 and His response); as well as "the age [singular] to come" which follows the other, sequentially, but found in Matt12:32 (the MK), located before the Matt13 passage

--the two "RETURN" passages of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," when He will deal out responsibilities regarding "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou over 5" (and the parallels to these)

--ALL "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages

--the "ye [the 12] shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare with Matt25:31-34 for TIMING: His 2nd Coming to the earth])

--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]

--the Transfiguration (a picture of His Second Coming glory)


… I'm pretty sure there's tons more than just these (how's that for "maths" LOL)

Great!

But I don't think that changes my initial assessment, that the estimate of 8 verses concerning the second coming for every 1 verse concerning the first coming is too high.

 

[dcontroversal]

No offense taken, but you're still mistaken.

There are 3,779 verses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which are all pretty much exclusively concerned with the first coming. For your claim to be correct (that "there are 8 verses concerned with the second coming for every 1 verse concerned with the first coming"), there would have to be 8 x 3,779 = 30,232 verses concerned with the second coming. You said yourself there are only 31,102 verses in the entire Bible. So again, your estimate seems a bit high.



525 is a long way from 30,232. In fact, 525 is only about 1/7th as many verses as there are in the Gospels--the verses concerned with the first coming. So it would be more correct to say that for every 1 verse concerned with the second coming, there are 8 verses concerned with the first coming--not the other way around.

Simple math, people...

Listen pal....if you think that Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 are EXCLUSIVELY dealing with the 1st coming....ALL ON THIS SITE can see the ignorance of your view and your math lacks any logic whatsoever at all.....wow...we're done....come back and address me when you have understanding....

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm not arguing any math equations either way, mind you, but I'm not sure how you can say the sentence in bold ^ , above.

I can think of at least 12 random things off the top of my head that (in the gospels) speak to His Second Coming to the earth and the circumstances that will surround that:

--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come [etc]" passages

--"the kingdom of the heavens" (the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)

--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages (ditto the above; referred to in a few different passages)

--the "G347 - shall sit down [around a table / at a meal]" of Matt8:11 and its parallel

--the entire Olivet Discourse (except for the section of Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad), so Matt24-25/Mk13/Lk21

--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" references of Lk18:8[chpt-17-end], [also Romans 16:20 and Rev1:1/22:6] (specific limited future time period leading UP TO the earthly MK, which will commence at His Second Coming to the earth)

--"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (also Matt24:3 and His response); as well as "the age [singular] to come" which follows the other, sequentially, but found in Matt12:32 (the MK), located before the Matt13 passage

--the two "RETURN" passages of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," when He will deal out responsibilities regarding "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou over 5" (and the parallels to these)

--ALL "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages

--the "ye [the 12] shall sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare with Matt25:31-34 for TIMING: His 2nd Coming to the earth])

--about eight to TEN "BLESSED" passages in the gospels [correlating with Dan12:12's "BLESSED" (specific time slot) and Rev19:9's "BLESSED" both/all pertaining to their entrance into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]

--the Transfiguration (a picture of His Second Coming glory)


… I'm pretty sure there's tons more than just these (how's that for "maths" LOL)

The depth of ignorance astounds me sometimes.............and or the abililty to reason logically that we are discussing PROPHECIES....not every verse in the bible......geesh

 

[AxeElf]

Listen pal....if you think that Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 are EXCLUSIVELY dealing with the 1st coming....ALL ON THIS SITE can see the ignorance of your view and your math lacks any logic whatsoever at all.....wow...we're done....come back and address me when you have understanding....

Dude, all of those chapters record things that Jesus said--during the first coming.

 

[dcontroversal]

You forgot about the wrath that has been being poured for 3 1/2 years. Even the kings of the earth try to hide themselves crying out who can withstand the wrath of the Lord. And the 7th seal has not even been opened yet it was there response to the 1st 6 seals.. All of which are Gods wrath.

I forgot nothing....that IS THEIR VIEW and what THEY think........I will still go with the ANNOUNCED WRATH of God having arrived before the throne in heaven at the 7th trump

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[dcontroversal]

Dude, all of those chapters record things that Jesus said--during the first coming.

DUDE they are PROPHETIC OF HIS SECOND COMING......you DO UNDERSTAND WE ARE TALKING PROPHECIES THAT PREDICTED HIS 1ST AND 2ND COMINGS RIGHT.........get with the program MAN.......1 to 8 is the RATIO OF PROPHECIES.....

 

[Absolutely]

Good questions Bro - in regards to the man of sin in Paul as "against" John's anti-Christ(s) I can't say for sure if John was implying the same person - I tend to think not.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

John most likely when not in his visionary state would have not been "surprised" at the identities of the woman and the beast, I think the overwhelming power of the visions is why he "wondered", this would probably have been a similar "effect" when John "fell at his feet as dead"

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 17;17 puts a huge hurdle to preterists.
The ac is a world wide ruler.

 

[Absolutely]

O

Ok if the Great Tribulation happens a long time ago? Who was the anti christ? What about the Rapture which many Christian claim the end of the world? Do you believe if there is a Rapture or not?

The gt is future.
Preterists use history to interpret end times.
When specific events challenge their view they spiritualize them away.
Flying scorpions and hailstones of fire simply transform into some spiritualized explaination.
Same with the motb.
I forgot what they do with " no buying and selling"

 

[Absolutely]

We will go through the great tribulation which will be caused by the anti-christ and His followers persecuting Christians.. We will be protected from the wrath of God that will also happen at the end as Jesus returns to earth.. Those of us who are alive and remain will be caught up "raptured" on the day of Jesus return and we shall meet Him in the sky and we will be coming down to earth to rule the world with Him for 1000 years.

How are you protected.
It says everyone refusing the mark dies.
The entire earth has to make the decision.
The only ones protected are the Jewish remnant,and the 144k.
It even says power was given the ac to overcome the saints.
The rapture is pretrib.

 

[Noose]

Rev 17;17 puts a huge hurdle to preterists.
The ac is a world wide ruler.

The fight is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. So don't expect anything to be physical, not even buying and selling.

 

[Absolutely]

No it isn't......

Tribulation -->Thilipsis -->put the squeeze on, pressure, persecution

Wrath -->Orge-->Fiery indignation of God

Through MUCH TRIBULATION we must enter the Kingdom of God

WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH

Get your facts straight....there is a difference and Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 all teach the elect are gathered AFTER the Great Tribulation....

Two different words, two different applications and you are peddling that which the bible does not support....

The bible says all on the planet take the mark.
Ooops

 

[Absolutely]

The fight is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. So don't expect anything to be physical, not even buying and selling.

Good power verse.
We are also seated With him in heavenly places.

 

[Noose]

Good power verse.
We are also seated With him in heavenly places.

Heaven is not a place but the heart of a believer.

 

[Absolutely]

The "wrath" is the issue I think. The wrath is because of something that has been done by them already,(worship the beast image,mark ect.) and the wrath,(Wrath of God) comes "after" those who commit the work worthy of that wrath.

So is the tribulation of those days orchestrated by the beast and Gods Wrath is then sent on the beast and his worshipers because of the tribulation they caused?

Who causes the tribulation and who does the tribulation affect? Can the wrath of God come before the beast has come and those who are deceived worship his image?


The beast comes,the image is set up,the crime is committed,,,and then the wrath.

Yet another point to see the pretrib rapture.
The gt is Jacobs/Israel's trouble.
The church age ends with the rapture

 

[Absolutely]

Heaven is not a place but the heart of a believer.

Then the bible is not true.
John didnt go up to heaven,he just went into somebody's heart

 

[Absolutely]

The fight is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. So don't expect anything to be physical, not even buying and selling.

So,since EVERYTHING has a meaning,and nothing described is tangeable,the posibilities are endless.

 

[Noose]

Then the bible is not true.

The bible is true but the idea that everything in the bible must be physical is not true. Just pay close attention and you'll realize what the bible is talking about.

In the new covenant, heaven means the heart of a believer:

Matt 6:19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Noose]

So,since EVERYTHING has a meaning,and nothing described is tangeable,the posibilities are endless.

The possibilities are not endless because the bible itself gives direction as what everything and anything should be. The bible repeats the same story over and over and over right from Genesis to Revelation but in different formats, so there's no endless possibilities but just, truth, or one direction if you understand what was said and prophesied and prophesied again.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The bible says all on the planet take the mark.
Ooops

You don't believe Revelation 20:4b refers to tribulation saints who refuse the mark? (I do.) ...where it says,

"[…] and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Where it says, "he causeth all," I believe that refers solely to his action (purpose and intentions) not that he's wholly successful at it, and not speaking about those who refuse it, such as in the above-mentioned verse.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The bible is true but the idea that everything in the bible must be physical is not true. Just pay close attention and you'll realize what the bible is talking about.

In the new covenant, heaven means the heart of a believer:

In 2Cor5, Paul is talking about our bodies when he speaks of "if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved" (referring to "death" of the body [of a believer, of course, per context]), then says, "2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven "... surely it is not meaning that it is "from or located in our heart," right?