Not By Works
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Like always I will have something to say 
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
The Hebrew word "laws" is Torah... so Abraham did keep God's law/torah if I understand Gen26:5. The only difference is that God instructed Moses to write it down.
Blessings brother
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
The Hebrew word "laws" is Torah... so Abraham did keep God's law/torah if I understand Gen26:5. The only difference is that God instructed Moses to write it down.
Blessings brother
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This is an important theological point.
If all our actions are not righteous, even in the Spirit then we are sinners and not saints.
This is by definition the foundation of not being acceptable to God even while walking in Jesus.
What you are attempting to do, is to say our works are not justification of righteousness before God?
But as our works are done in and through Christ, of course they are not ours but His.
But this step of communion and doing Christs work through His people is something you cannot do.
Listen to this verse
The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:26
Your version of this would be the prayer of a sinner who is deemed righteous is powerful and effective.
The problem is if you follow this logic all men are saved, because it is not the person who is different,
only how God views them. To mitigate this, one says, no they have a new spirit, which is through faith,
so they are righteous because of this new spirit.
The problem here is a sinner with a new spirit cannot be convicted or judged for their sinful behaviour or
rebellion, so can be as lawless as they desire or not, without restriction. And this goes against all of Gods
revelation of how He deals with sinful behaviour. The sinner is fully responsible for their behaviour.
So either one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in a sinful temple, tainted and contaminated or you have a Holy
God dwelling in a purified, blameless temple, which performs works of His calling.
And this is your choice of theology. I would rather go with Paul and Gods revelation, that He truly redeems
His people and opens the way to walking in His ways and in Holiness, which may fail, but can be purified and
restored.
If all our actions are not righteous, even in the Spirit then we are sinners and not saints.
This is by definition the foundation of not being acceptable to God even while walking in Jesus.
What you are attempting to do, is to say our works are not justification of righteousness before God?
But as our works are done in and through Christ, of course they are not ours but His.
But this step of communion and doing Christs work through His people is something you cannot do.
Listen to this verse
The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:26
Your version of this would be the prayer of a sinner who is deemed righteous is powerful and effective.
The problem is if you follow this logic all men are saved, because it is not the person who is different,
only how God views them. To mitigate this, one says, no they have a new spirit, which is through faith,
so they are righteous because of this new spirit.
The problem here is a sinner with a new spirit cannot be convicted or judged for their sinful behaviour or
rebellion, so can be as lawless as they desire or not, without restriction. And this goes against all of Gods
revelation of how He deals with sinful behaviour. The sinner is fully responsible for their behaviour.
So either one has the Holy Spirit dwelling in a sinful temple, tainted and contaminated or you have a Holy
God dwelling in a purified, blameless temple, which performs works of His calling.
And this is your choice of theology. I would rather go with Paul and Gods revelation, that He truly redeems
His people and opens the way to walking in His ways and in Holiness, which may fail, but can be purified and
restored.
Paul does have a theological problem with Holiness and judgement.
It is with children of a believer. The logic is the children, not being purified or made Holy are under
judgement. So Paul suggests they are deemed Holy and pure because of the believing parent.
This though suggests a break between behaviour and Holiness.
Equally if we are Gods Holy temple, if we fall into sin, and do not repent, are we no longer the temple,
or is it a temporary failure and contamination? All physical temples can be violated so equally why not
the human heart. There is a mystery here, just as we do not know who truly walks with the Lord and who
does not.
Equally grace does apply, where the difference between abandonment of Jesus and a difficult episode in
ones life. Or in coming to Christ with serious issues and problems that have to be fought through.
It makes me conclude in scripture you will find arguments that support all the steps or stages to perfection,
but that I think is the point, they are steps to our journey not its end until we become like Jesus in our walk.
It is with children of a believer. The logic is the children, not being purified or made Holy are under
judgement. So Paul suggests they are deemed Holy and pure because of the believing parent.
This though suggests a break between behaviour and Holiness.
Equally if we are Gods Holy temple, if we fall into sin, and do not repent, are we no longer the temple,
or is it a temporary failure and contamination? All physical temples can be violated so equally why not
the human heart. There is a mystery here, just as we do not know who truly walks with the Lord and who
does not.
Equally grace does apply, where the difference between abandonment of Jesus and a difficult episode in
ones life. Or in coming to Christ with serious issues and problems that have to be fought through.
It makes me conclude in scripture you will find arguments that support all the steps or stages to perfection,
but that I think is the point, they are steps to our journey not its end until we become like Jesus in our walk.
Hi dcon,
My friend, it is not polite or even nice to suggest I am lying or twisting or embellishing anything.
We are talking theological positions, and their consequences.
Either we are Holy, purified, blameless, righteous people after repenting and confessing our sins or not.
A thing is either clean or it is dirty. You cannot be both.
If you want to subdivide human existence into two, spirit and flesh, and then talk about the spirit as
clean, while the flesh is dirty, then you get this divide which is gnostic in its view.
It is also similar to saying I follow Jesus as I like, and can ignore His words, even though He says that
means I am not His sheep or a follower.
Some are happy to hold these positions, God bless them, I cannot.
And my friend, if you cannot clearly state how I have got things wrong, then unfortunately it stands true.
Why do people hate shinning the light on beliefs and theology and then comparing this with scripture?
Maybe because they know it could mean a life change for them, and this they will never accept.
I have met sinners like this before, and the hatred is always the same. Obeying and listening to Jesus means
one is in the Kingdom, and those outside will always shout and complain it is all wrong, God bless you.
My friend, it is not polite or even nice to suggest I am lying or twisting or embellishing anything.
We are talking theological positions, and their consequences.
Either we are Holy, purified, blameless, righteous people after repenting and confessing our sins or not.
A thing is either clean or it is dirty. You cannot be both.
If you want to subdivide human existence into two, spirit and flesh, and then talk about the spirit as
clean, while the flesh is dirty, then you get this divide which is gnostic in its view.
It is also similar to saying I follow Jesus as I like, and can ignore His words, even though He says that
means I am not His sheep or a follower.
Some are happy to hold these positions, God bless them, I cannot.
And my friend, if you cannot clearly state how I have got things wrong, then unfortunately it stands true.
Why do people hate shinning the light on beliefs and theology and then comparing this with scripture?
Maybe because they know it could mean a life change for them, and this they will never accept.
I have met sinners like this before, and the hatred is always the same. Obeying and listening to Jesus means
one is in the Kingdom, and those outside will always shout and complain it is all wrong, God bless you.
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Those who teach salvation by works tend to subdivide the law (as demonstrated by you above) and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only). Roman Catholicism erroneously teaches the same thing and this flawed logic has also spilled over into other churches that teach salvation by works. Here is a statement made by someone who attends the church of Christ (Campbellism) - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." *Yet the law is not merely limited to ceremonial laws/circumcision/offerings/feasts etc.. but also encompasses moral commandments.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc.. could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus. NOWHERE does Paul say that we are "saved by works" and when Paul says we are not saved by works, he is not merely limiting this to the ceremonial laws of Moses. Elsewhere, Paul makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5) and he also makes it clear that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Timothy 1:9)
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc.. could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?
*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus. NOWHERE does Paul say that we are "saved by works" and when Paul says we are not saved by works, he is not merely limiting this to the ceremonial laws of Moses. Elsewhere, Paul makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5) and he also makes it clear that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Timothy 1:9)
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A life change
If I follow Jesus and His words, then knowing the bible more is not a challenge but a privilege.
Let me suggest I accept we are under grace and following Jesus closely is a privilege and not an obligation.
Will this change my life in anyway? No.
If I do not follow Jesus and His words, and accept I need to, is this an extraordinary challenge that I would
resist with everything within me? Yes. Because I live as I do because it makes sense to me and I am happy
here.
So this is why the argument is not neutral. To me it actually will not affect me in terms of what I am doing
or why, yet for the opposition, it is a massive cost if they lose. So no wonder the behaviour is so aggressive,
and nothing to do with the insult to Jesus, it is an insult to them that they resent, even though they condemn
themselves as being in wilful sin which they refuse to repent of or resolve.
You cannot say one cannot stop sinning every 24/7 unless you admit you are sinning with abandon and without
regard. And in this language it is the same as murdering someone all the time. Except that is too disgusting
to imagine, so they will get upset at such an idea, except that is what they are saying is happening all the time.
If I follow Jesus and His words, then knowing the bible more is not a challenge but a privilege.
Let me suggest I accept we are under grace and following Jesus closely is a privilege and not an obligation.
Will this change my life in anyway? No.
If I do not follow Jesus and His words, and accept I need to, is this an extraordinary challenge that I would
resist with everything within me? Yes. Because I live as I do because it makes sense to me and I am happy
here.
So this is why the argument is not neutral. To me it actually will not affect me in terms of what I am doing
or why, yet for the opposition, it is a massive cost if they lose. So no wonder the behaviour is so aggressive,
and nothing to do with the insult to Jesus, it is an insult to them that they resent, even though they condemn
themselves as being in wilful sin which they refuse to repent of or resolve.
You cannot say one cannot stop sinning every 24/7 unless you admit you are sinning with abandon and without
regard. And in this language it is the same as murdering someone all the time. Except that is too disgusting
to imagine, so they will get upset at such an idea, except that is what they are saying is happening all the time.
remember, the one lecturing about not sinning does not recognize the definition of sin.
it is easy to say " I don't sin ; when you have a floating definition of what sin is .
but, when one submits himself to the authority of Scripture, one understands what sin really is.
and, this not about having a self-defeating attitude and outlook. it is about looking at the proper definition of sin, and then looking at if one has done so or not.
it is easy to say " I don't sin ; when you have a floating definition of what sin is .
but, when one submits himself to the authority of Scripture, one understands what sin really is.
and, this not about having a self-defeating attitude and outlook. it is about looking at the proper definition of sin, and then looking at if one has done so or not.
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This is interesting language.
There are lots of problems with how we approach God, and rituals, but God instituted rituals
and a temple, and offerings and sacrifices. So one can end up condemning the very principles
and ideas the Lord Himself encourages.
It is why the Lutheran Church, and Anglican church though protestant still have many of the
same rituals and theology, held within the Catholic church.
I will not condemn their approach to the Lord and honouring His word, I would suggest few
appear to know the heart reality of communing with Christ and following Him.
There are lots of problems with how we approach God, and rituals, but God instituted rituals
and a temple, and offerings and sacrifices. So one can end up condemning the very principles
and ideas the Lord Himself encourages.
It is why the Lutheran Church, and Anglican church though protestant still have many of the
same rituals and theology, held within the Catholic church.
I will not condemn their approach to the Lord and honouring His word, I would suggest few
appear to know the heart reality of communing with Christ and following Him.
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Sounds good.
Through the help we receive from the Holy Spirit, who is working in us after salvation, we are equipped, as you said, (Phil 1:22) in everything good to do His will.
Do we forget that we have the Holy Spirit within us that it should even be necessary to post scripture as you have above?
As to the growth,,,that would be sanctification.
Daily, weekly, monthly and yearly, we grow in our desire to please God and become better and better at it.
I just want to add that some transformation must be noted in a believer.
Someone who says they study and believe and know all truth, and then do not act like it...leaves room to wonder; something I never did before coming to this particular thread. Some here talk the talk, but do not walk the walk. We must walk with God and not contrary to Him.
Through the help we receive from the Holy Spirit, who is working in us after salvation, we are equipped, as you said, (Phil 1:22) in everything good to do His will.
Do we forget that we have the Holy Spirit within us that it should even be necessary to post scripture as you have above?
As to the growth,,,that would be sanctification.
Daily, weekly, monthly and yearly, we grow in our desire to please God and become better and better at it.
I just want to add that some transformation must be noted in a believer.
Someone who says they study and believe and know all truth, and then do not act like it...leaves room to wonder; something I never did before coming to this particular thread. Some here talk the talk, but do not walk the walk. We must walk with God and not contrary to Him.
You say you spoke openly....
You spoke about me....
That's like speaking to a crowd of persons,,,calling me dishonest, and a liar, which is slander.
If you were on any other forum you would have been banned a long time ago....
This is unacceptable in a christian forum such as this is.
How did you know I'd ever see that post?
You don't tag me and that's speaking about me without my knowledge.
Since Jesus says that we can do nothing without Him...
I do question the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in some here.
The Holy Spirit is apparently very far from them.
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
You spoke about me....
That's like speaking to a crowd of persons,,,calling me dishonest, and a liar, which is slander.
If you were on any other forum you would have been banned a long time ago....
This is unacceptable in a christian forum such as this is.
How did you know I'd ever see that post?
You don't tag me and that's speaking about me without my knowledge.
Since Jesus says that we can do nothing without Him...
I do question the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in some here.
The Holy Spirit is apparently very far from them.
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
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Hi gb9, I agree with you.
For some sitting having a cup of coffee is sinning, by just being human.
I would argue by not communing with the Lord and acknowledging who He is, is sinning.
I would also suggest not believing the cross is a statement that Christ transform us into His likeness is sinning.
And what would sinners who deny God and the power of the cross know of victory or righteousness?
When Jesus declares if we hunger and thirst for righteousness we will find it.
The motivation here is a belief that believing Jesus can make you righteous is sinful and dooms you to hell.
Except in their mind sin does not exist as all is forgiven, and the issue is just belief in Jesus.
But in this world where all sin is forgiven, whether you believe or not, belief in Jesus is not for the forgiveness
of sins, it is for eternal life.
And this eternal life is not shown in your life, it is shown when Jesus returns and you are written in the Lambs
book of life.
The sin being proposed here is believing Jesus does anything of value in us, and everything rests only on Him.
To suggest we have anything of value, in or outside of Christ is unbelief in Jesus in their eyes, and so anti-Christ.
It has all the hall-marks of faith, while denying everything.
And this is why it all falls apart, because it fruit is so extreme and so condemning. Jesus if He returned would be
condemned as a hypocrite and a liar. And for me that says it all.
Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
Acts 13:38-40
Paul is preaching that through Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins.
He is not preaching, oh you have also had your sins forgiven because of Jesus, so you do not need to repent of sin.
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus.
Acts 3:19-20
Peter is preaching we need to repent and turn to God so that our sins may be wiped out.
Peter is not saying they have already been wiped out, but so that they will be wiped out.
For some sitting having a cup of coffee is sinning, by just being human.
I would argue by not communing with the Lord and acknowledging who He is, is sinning.
I would also suggest not believing the cross is a statement that Christ transform us into His likeness is sinning.
And what would sinners who deny God and the power of the cross know of victory or righteousness?
When Jesus declares if we hunger and thirst for righteousness we will find it.
The motivation here is a belief that believing Jesus can make you righteous is sinful and dooms you to hell.
Except in their mind sin does not exist as all is forgiven, and the issue is just belief in Jesus.
But in this world where all sin is forgiven, whether you believe or not, belief in Jesus is not for the forgiveness
of sins, it is for eternal life.
And this eternal life is not shown in your life, it is shown when Jesus returns and you are written in the Lambs
book of life.
The sin being proposed here is believing Jesus does anything of value in us, and everything rests only on Him.
To suggest we have anything of value, in or outside of Christ is unbelief in Jesus in their eyes, and so anti-Christ.
It has all the hall-marks of faith, while denying everything.
And this is why it all falls apart, because it fruit is so extreme and so condemning. Jesus if He returned would be
condemned as a hypocrite and a liar. And for me that says it all.
Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
Acts 13:38-40
Paul is preaching that through Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins.
He is not preaching, oh you have also had your sins forgiven because of Jesus, so you do not need to repent of sin.
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus.
Acts 3:19-20
Peter is preaching we need to repent and turn to God so that our sins may be wiped out.
Peter is not saying they have already been wiped out, but so that they will be wiped out.
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So according to you the Moral Law has been abolished?
GOD IS MORALALITY itself.
God cannot separate Himself from Himself.
The entire post above is INCORRECT,,,including what the Catholic church teaches.
You're obsessed with the catholic church...they must have done real psychological harm to you which is why you're so against what is truth in the N.T. --- because you equate everything with the CC.
Please post some scripture that shows how the Moral Law has been abolished.
In English or in Greek if you MUST to confuse things .... which is never to your advantage anyway since the Word of God is ONE and does not change in ANY LANGUAGE.
GOD IS MORALALITY itself.
God cannot separate Himself from Himself.
The entire post above is INCORRECT,,,including what the Catholic church teaches.
You're obsessed with the catholic church...they must have done real psychological harm to you which is why you're so against what is truth in the N.T. --- because you equate everything with the CC.
Please post some scripture that shows how the Moral Law has been abolished.
In English or in Greek if you MUST to confuse things .... which is never to your advantage anyway since the Word of God is ONE and does not change in ANY LANGUAGE.
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Hi dcon,
I am not a sinless perfectionist, I am just a faithful follower of Jesus.
My modus operandi is to understand positions and present them.
If you do not like the conclusions and consequences, then you need to participate in a response.
I have noticed those who have no response tend to remain quiet or do what you are doing.
Let the reader decide which they believe to be true, God bless you.
I am not a sinless perfectionist, I am just a faithful follower of Jesus.
My modus operandi is to understand positions and present them.
If you do not like the conclusions and consequences, then you need to participate in a response.
I have noticed those who have no response tend to remain quiet or do what you are doing.
Let the reader decide which they believe to be true, God bless you.
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You should pay attention to your behavior and not mine.
I never said I don't sin.
YOU, OTOH, have constantly played God and told some of us here that we're going to hell.
How this is allowed on a Christian forum,,,do DO NOT understand.
Try to follow Jesus and be a disciple of Jesus...
If one is...it should show and be visible to everyone reading along.
I never said I don't sin.
YOU, OTOH, have constantly played God and told some of us here that we're going to hell.
How this is allowed on a Christian forum,,,do DO NOT understand.
Try to follow Jesus and be a disciple of Jesus...
If one is...it should show and be visible to everyone reading along.