Not By Works

[YourTruthGod]

Peter said that God inspired HOLY MEN to pen the word, Isaiah included himself when he said ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS

Get your facts straight pal....

The Jews had to do the purification works of the law. That is how they cleaned themselves, purified themselves, thus the name purification works. Those purification works of the law justified the Jews. Those purification works of the law were righteous acts.

Those purification works included the blood of animals.

When the people did the righteous acts of the law, which included animal blood, their not really being sorry for their sins made that animal blood sacrifice as a FILTHY RAG SACRIFICE.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...and

Romans 5:20 [bsb] -

"The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but..."

[ylt] -

"And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound"

 

[YourTruthGod]

Roman 4 : What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

Why do you people insist on usinf James 2, a passage refuting CLAIMED faith, and ignore romans 4.

You are the one making what they say contradictory.

Paul was speaking about circumcision of the flesh. Circumcision was the thing Paul spoke about concerning Abraham! Paul did not say Abraham was called righteous before obeying anything!

Abraham was saved decades before he offered his son. He was not saved when he offered up his son. All he did was PROVE his faith was real.

Proving your faiht is real is not EARNING SALVATION. It is WORKING out the SALVATION that is IN YOU.

Abraham obeyed way before that! And, having your faith tested by doing something IS proof that we must believe and obey.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

If there are people who were preaching to get Paul in trouble---then they were NOT obeying.
We have to obey Jesus---and there is never a wrong way to obey.
I do not know what you are trying to convey. Could you explain more what you mean? Paul obeyed Jesus.
What do you mean by about the initial start?
It is never ever wrong to obey Jesus. There isn't a wrong way to obey Jesus.

What do you mean by about the initial start?

Paul says this about judging the motives of others.

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
1 Cor 4:3-5

"What do you mean by about the initial start?"

Many people start in faith with various ideas about what it means.
Our loyalties to certain theology or positions can change over time.

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3:15

So we should obey Jesus because it is the way of life, but some may
obey with varying motives. I agree it is wrong to say motives should
only be like this, or the obedience is evil. I know people do things for
many motives that was all.

I was pointing out I cannot say what peoples motives are, but only
in the Holy Spirit will they persever. My fear is always the attempt
to start motive judgementalism rather than running after Jesus.

 

[YourTruthGod]

What?????

Dude, you need to find a church, and I woudl recommend a real church

Some people need to leave their church if they are taught that Paul was saying Abraham was deemed righteous before obeying anything God said to do! It is about circumcising the flesh and the law.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Um No

What did James say

What does it PROFIT a man if he CLAIMS to have faith (he never said they had faith he said the CLAIMED to have it) yet has no works. Can that CLAIMED faiht save them.

He was speaking of easy believism, People who BELIEVE jesus was real. But NEVER had faith in them.

It means exactly what he says, and he says faith without works IS dead and CANNOT save anyone.
More proof you want?
Okay; James says even DEMONS believe and do something, they shudder!

That is proof that James is going against the faith alone doctrine.

 

[stonesoffire]

The problem with most all of us believers, is our identification. If we don't understand that our old man died with Jesus, then we continue to think battle. And our minds are not on a victorious walk, but on combatting flesh, Satan, and the world spirit.

I'm done with this and I wish I had known this at the beginning.

Did Jesus fight any of these things? NO. He walked as man in a body, but He operated as Son. God is greater! Greater is He that is in us! You all know the rest. And He walked or ministered as the Son!

If we start out knowing who we are, then we act as Son. Anything else is as filthy rags. It's not what we do but are we doing it as Son? Or hu-man.

And He will not chasten us with whips. He guides us within, and by the scriptures. For most of us are just babies, not even toddling yet.

We all think we know so much. Well that's the problem. Still thinking in a tree of knowing good or evil.

Not so when eating the fruit of the tree of life which is Yeshua ha Meshiach!

This is the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God.

He really did finish the work of saving man, and our transformation is instant at our new birth!

Now...see? Or reject.

 

[YourTruthGod]

There was no law in Abrahams day

God gave commands to Abraham.

Genesis 26:4-5I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Circumcisiuon was a sign of the covenant between God and abraham that he would be the father of many nations. And he would also father one great nation. From whome the seed (messiah) would come, Not that he would be saved

Again, You need to find a church, You have either led yourself astray or been led astry by false teachers.

Circumcision is a WORK that has nothing to do with being good or bad; it was a purification work. It is good to obey God no matter what He says to do. It is about not having to do the purification works of the law anymore! It is not about not having to obey God anymore!

 

[YourTruthGod]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which is like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works.

Are you making a new analogy? We should be careful about doing that because it can be deceptive.
Let's only use analogies from the Bible.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Right, because faith without a right action is dead and it cannot save.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

...and even before faith of Abraham was mentions, Abraham OBEYING was mentioned.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith.
This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

So as we can clearly see from scripture, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

That is some mixed up stuff and sounds like you are avoiding saying that faith alone cannot save.
That is one of the severe problems with preaching faith alone...for one thing it is false, and for another thing, it makes one speak in turmoil about obeying, which should never be.
By the way, I don't go by Mr. Strong. He was biased in that he was taught his false doctrines too.

 

[YourTruthGod]

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14-20) *Not to be confused with a living faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Romans 3:22-28; Ephesians 2:5-10) which results in producing evidential works.

No such thing as faith alone saving anyone in the first place.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Those who teach salvation by works tend to subdivide the law (as demonstrated by you above) and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only).

Jesus purifies us now. Jesus came and gave the NEW Covenant. The New Covenant has rules and guidelines too.

Roman Catholicism erroneously teaches the same thing and this flawed logic has also spilled over into other churches that teach salvation by works.

The Catholic church does not do what Jesus says; they make up other works that God does not command. We are not to call our brothers in Christ 'father'; we are not to have Mary intercede, only Jesus; we are not to bow to the works of our hands, etc.
So please don't compare what the Catholics do to what I say, for I preach obedience to Christ.

Here is a statement made by someone who attends the church of Christ (Campbellism) - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." *Yet the law is not merely limited to ceremonial laws/circumcision/offerings/feasts etc.. but also encompasses moral commandments.

The church of Christ teaches other falseness such a saying a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit until a water baptism. So, I don't think you can disprove me about obedience by saying something from Campbell.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

Everything Jesus teaches is about how to love. If you don't obey what Jesus says, then how are we doing with that love?

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc.. could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus. NOWHERE does Paul say that we are "saved by works" and when Paul says we are not saved by works, he is not merely limiting this to the ceremonial laws of Moses. Elsewhere, Paul makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5) and he also makes it clear that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Timothy 1:9)

Jesus gave us a new law; and, you misunderstand Paul when he says not of works of righteousness. Paul was speaking about the purification works of the law. Just look and see that 'circumcision' is spoken of when Paul says not of righteous works. Paul tells the people to repent of their sins and have faith in Jesus! Paul NEVER EVER tells anyone to have faith only and be careful not to think that your repenting of your sins did anything.

 

[UnderGrace]

Jesus purifies us now. Jesus came and gave the NEW Covenant. The New Covenant has rules and guidelines too.


The Catholic church does not do what Jesus says; they make up other works that God does not command. We are not to call our brothers in Christ 'father'; we are not to have Mary intercede, only Jesus; we are not to bow to the works of our hands, etc.
So please don't compare what the Catholics do to what I say, for I preach obedience to Christ.


The church of Christ teaches other falseness such a saying a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit until a water baptism. So, I don't think you can disprove me about obedience by saying something from Campbell.


Everything Jesus teaches is about how to love. If you don't obey what Jesus says, then how are we doing with that love?

Jesus gave us a new law; and, you misunderstand Paul when he says not of works of righteousness. Paul was speaking about the purification works of the law. Just look and see that 'circumcision' is spoken of when Paul says not of righteous works. Paul tells the people to repent of their sins and have faith in Jesus! Paul NEVER EVER tells anyone to have faith only and be careful not to think that your repenting of your sins did anything.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I'm continually posting Romans 7:1-4 (note ITS parenthetical words):

Release from the Law
(Galatians 3:15-25)

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

The Jews had to do the purification works of the law; now they only have to let Jesus purify them.
That doesn't mean we don't have to obey Jesus and his new law; it means we don't have to get circumcised in the flesh; we don't have to do various baths; we don't have to adhere to a special diet; we don't have to go to a priest; we don't have to offer animals to sacrifice.

 

[YourTruthGod]

What do you mean by about the initial start?

Paul says this about judging the motives of others.

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
1 Cor 4:3-5

I don't see judging other's motives in that. It sounds though that you agree with me that there is not a wrong motive to obey Jesus.

"What do you mean by about the initial start?"

Many people start in faith with various ideas about what it means.
Our loyalties to certain theology or positions can change over time.

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3:15

So we should obey Jesus because it is the way of life, but some may
obey with varying motives. I agree it is wrong to say motives should
only be like this, or the obedience is evil. I know people do things for
many motives that was all.

I was pointing out I cannot say what peoples motives are, but only
in the Holy Spirit will they persever. My fear is always the attempt
to start motive judgementalism rather than running after Jesus.

Obeying Jesus is never ever wrong. I don't see how there can be a bad motive in obeying.

 

[YourTruthGod]

The problem with most all of us believers, is our identification. If we don't understand that our old man died with Jesus, then we continue to think battle. And our minds are not on a victorious walk, but on combatting flesh, Satan, and the world spirit.

I'm done with this and I wish I had known this at the beginning.

Did Jesus fight any of these things? NO. He walked as man in a body, but He operated as Son. God is greater! Greater is He that is in us! You all know the rest. And He walked or ministered as the Son!

If we start out knowing who we are, then we act as Son. Anything else is as filthy rags. It's not what we do but are we doing it as Son? Or hu-man.

And He will not chasten us with whips. He guides us within, and by the scriptures. For most of us are just babies, not even toddling yet.

We all think we know so much. Well that's the problem. Still thinking in a tree of knowing good or evil.

Not so when eating the fruit of the tree of life which is Yeshua ha Meshiach!

This is the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God.

He really did finish the work of saving man, and our transformation is instant at our new birth!

Now...see? Or reject.

Not sure about that not chastening with whips thing you were talking about.
We are told that we get disciplined.
We have to watch our lives and doctrine carefully.
It is good to know that if we sin, we have forgiveness and mercy through Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are the one making what they say contradictory.

Paul was speaking about circumcision of the flesh. Circumcision was the thing Paul spoke about concerning Abraham! Paul did not say Abraham was called righteous before obeying anything!


Abraham obeyed way before that! And, having your faith tested by doing something IS proof that we must believe and obey.

No, You are

Paul was speaking of the fact That abraham could not earn salvation by works. That if he was saved because he moved to a country where he was a stranger or because he sacrificed his son, or any other work. He would have something to boast. (Saving himself) in factg. Paul called it earning a WAGE. But what did he say? In reality he incured DEBT if he tried that.

And james.

Once again, He NEVER said they had faith. He said they CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH.

Try to learn the difference.

Mere belief (demons believe) Will never save ANYONE. As paul said. We are saved by FAITH. The people james spoke of NEVER had faith (it was dead)

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Hi follow

Respectfully...it's not so much in the Spirit as pertaining to flesh versus spirit. That's how we are to walk. Or live. But, when born again, we are Spirit.

Until then, we live as natural man. Born again, we are no longer natural, but of the eternal. Supernatural.

I know the language but it does not have a biblical foundation.
We are human not spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells within us.
This language of the eternal and supernatural is the world of spiritualism, 3rd heaven,
angels, special knowledge etc. Most we are banned from getting involved with and
leads to massive herisies and is a large part of the new age movement, NAR, and charismatic
movements, open heaven etc.

Again the fruit of such dabbling has lead to a prophesy movement which spouts rubbish
and claims God is telling them to do this. It is obvious sinful behaviour, similar to adultery
and new age ideas. A prophet who claims to speak from God but talks falsely should be put
to death. But such fellowship praise such attempts of faith.

So if you are talking about this, no thanks, not ever.
Seeing Todd Bentley and the fiasco, along with Bethel, gold dust and feathers, really?

 

[VCO]

Some people need to leave their church if they are taught that Paul was saying Abraham was deemed righteous before obeying anything God said to do! It is about circumcising the flesh and the law.

YOU are WRONG about About ABRAHAM, and YOU are WRONG about Leaving the CHURCH. You have got it ALL WRONG.

REPENT!

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous,
his faith is credited for righteousness.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You prove me right and yourself wrong.
You are badly mistaken about what you say about the Holy Bible and what you say about that scripture.

Actually your wrong, The literal translation is a womans menstral rag.

Yet another one of those do it yourself make up your own doctrine people who call themselves Gods children.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I don't see judging other's motives in that. It sounds though that you agree with me that there is not a wrong motive to obey Jesus.
Obeying Jesus is never ever wrong. I don't see how there can be a bad motive in obeying.

I suppose self justification, ie legalism is a failed strategy. Trying to be something one is not,
to obtain salvation, is the wrong approach, because it will fail.

Some will say it is the motive that is wrong. But equally the same people will also say it is
impossible to follow to perfection. But I need to be careful. The goal is important and working
where you are, and knowing the target. Each step matters not how massive the target is.

So my I am reluctant to talk about motives, rather attainment, because motives are always
hidden, and motives are used to distract from what we love and have a passion for, following
Jesus.