OSAS and "Never saved in the first place" Refuted

[BLC]

As a believer we are crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20). We have been buried with Him unto death (Rom 6:4) and in the grave and raised with Him in the resurrection (Col 2:12). We died with Him, we were buried with Him and we were raised with Him, having made us sit together, with Him, in heavenly places (Eph 2:6).

Eph 2:5-8 'Even when we were dead in sins,(dead in sins, dead in sins, dead in sins) hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God'.

(the action verbs in verses 5&6 are in the aorist tense / active voice / indicative mood; meaning that the action has already taken place though the work of God upon the believer and it is a fact for the believer to rest in)

All of this is God's work. How can we, who believe, be seated together in heavenly places in Christ, unless God put us there? He put us there when we were dead in sins. Because He did this when we were dead in sins, how can our sins take away what God has done? It can't happen! It was by grace through faith and not by our sins, that God seated us together. If God was going to remove us from where He seated us, He would have to remove us the same way He seated us. Is God going to remove us with the same grace He seated us with? We all deserve hell, but we believe upon the one who has justified us before God by removing everything that would have condemned us. We are justified by grace and not by whether we sin or not. Do you get it?

 

[wisdomseeker]

So what happens Thaddaeus if one day you hold unforgiveness in your heart? The bible says if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. What then? Did God lie, or not really mean that he wouldn't forgive us? Did God only mean this applied to non-Christians?

The funny thing is no OSAS believer yet has actually properly answered the questions I'm asking. If you want to say you can hold unforgiveness until death and still make it to heaven because you believe in Christ, then say so. There's no shame in that.

peace be to you
Just answering your question what then?
2nd peter
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Let us pray for those in need ,lest the advesary get an advantage

Love a friend in God

 

[BLC]

Here is something that MahoganySnail and others can chew over as they compare spiritual with spiritual. When you compare the scriptures you do it without rationalizing one passage away to accept another. If you can not reconcile them with the whole counsel of God then you must reject it as being the wrong counsel. The Samaritan woman at the well.

John 4:13,14 'Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life'.

Any water that does not spring up into everlasting life is a water that will leave you to thirst again.

John 7:38 'He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water'.

Rev 22:1-5 'And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever'.

Practical application;

Matthew 10:42; 'And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward'.

 

[88keys]

You know...I'm beginning to like this "OSAS" tag that has been placed upon me. OSAS is real close to OASIS. My belief and rest lie in my salvation which cannot be lost - and that is my oasis!

I may start a new thread to come up with an acronym for "the other guys"! lol

 

[Abing]

You know...I'm beginning to like this "OSAS" tag that has been placed upon me. OSAS is real close to OASIS. My belief and rest lie in my salvation which cannot be lost - and that is my oasis!

I may start a new thread to come up with an acronym for "the other guys"! lol

hmmmm they call us.. NOSAS hehehehe

 

[Sinnner]

People who are taught OSAS also have been taught that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer working. This makes it imposible for them to attain a proper interpritation of the bible that is given by the Holy Spirit when we believe in him. Satan is crafty and has tried to cover all the bases in creating this belief in OSAS. Can some one explain why this belief has only been around for at most 500 years, and what happened to the people for the first 1500 years when OSAS was never taught?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Peace be to you
Jesus preaches way better than you guys.

We dont need works to be forgiven of our sins;If we want to be like Christ tho we better get to work cause he already did the works God gave him to do.http://www.kingjamesbible.com/B40C017.htm

Have we done the works God gave us to Do?Our are we so thankfull for salvation that we choose to show it by doing absolutly nothing.
let me guess" praise God he saved my life and im gunna show him i love him by doing absolutly nothing."

a parible comes to mind for you people.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Promoting the Good works of Jesus Christ and God almight is not saying that you need works to be saved.It is however promoting fellow brethrin to bring forth works worthly of the saving grace and Love God has shown us.

Love;If you love someone you Do things for them.
I hate The promotion of loveless Gospel with dead works gospel.We do not need to do anything for salvation but as far as im concerned if you dont .you are not in Love.


I Love, Love
God is Love
I love God
Love a friend in God

 

[NoahsDad]

Re: OSAS and "Never saved in the first place" Refuted
[QUOTEIn our human mind it's hard to understand how we can sin and still remain saved but God's ways and thoughts are not like ours (thank God!). This sinful flesh will die and rot in the ground someday - it will not be saved but my soul which has been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb will be.


][/QUOTE]
Have you any scripture to bavk up the past,present and FUTURE part?


And mahogany you seem to be forgetting one important doctrine in the OSAS theology,
Only the books Romans through Phylemon apply to the gentiles
So you cant use any other books of the bible to back your arguement.
So please refreign from using anything else in the bible to refute their doctrine.although it is true thatAll scripture is good for food for the spirit and you can look to it for guidence.Anything before Romans (acording to this doctrine) is strictly refering to Israel.
even though it is written in Romans
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? By no means. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God to him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Notice who this verse is speaking of?Is it the Gentiles?NO But Israel,
So Whom is this Grace extended to in this context?ISRAEL!
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear to this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling-block, and a recompense to them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? By no means: but rather through their fall salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? By no means: but rather through their fall salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may incite to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the rejection of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive-tree, art ingrafted among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive-tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boastest, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be ingrafted.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but towards thee, goodness, if thou shalt continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be ingrafted: for God is able to ingraft them again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of the olive-tree which is wild by nature, and wast ingrafted contrary to nature into a good olive-tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive-tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, (lest ye should be wise in your own conceits) that blindness in part hath happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles shall be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant to them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief;
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed to him again?
Rom 11:36 For from him, and by him, and to him are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[88keys]

A little condescending there NoahsDad, dontcha think?

No, the bible doesn't say the word future but it sure seems to imply it when it says "all" numerous times. It doesn't say "rapture" either but I believe it just the same. But that's another thread...

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39
--------- "nor things to come" sounds like the FUTURE to me.----------

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. "
John 10:27-29
---------- Would you say this appears to be temporary, conditional, or eternal salvation?---------

 

[Thaddaeus]

Just remembered a verse that is probably the biggest rebuke of OSAS...

Remember when Paul is talking about wordly Christians?

Paul writes that "I am not saying to have nothing to do with [wordly] (he gives a list of the worldly here) for then you would have to go out of this world, but having nothing to do with someone who calls himself Christian that is worldly (list repeated here, I believe)." He goes further and says not only are we not to associate with them, we are to refuse to even have a physical meal with them...something I think I and all Christians need to take to heart...not that this is to foster pride but that it is to keep us holy for the Lord and not become entangled in their hypocrasy.

you say this is the biggest verse against osas but you don't give us the verse reference . could you please give us the location of the verse say like romans 10 :12 or acts 2:3

 

[MahogonySnail]

Well OSAS and the opposing view is probably tied up with Replacement Theology and how we view the Church's relationship to the Jews..but let's not go there, we've discussed that in other places.

88keys I agree 100% with the verses 'nor things to come' but you know that is in the context of being "which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"..which basically means to keep faith in Him if we aren't "in Him", or "in Christ", i.e. if we don't abide in the vine..then we are indeed separated from the love of God because we are then accursed children having forsaken the right way as it says in 2 Peter 2:14. Those scriptures you post are a comforting thought as long as we are a sheep as long as we remain in Him.

Obviously John 10:27-29 didn't apply to Judas Iscariot. He is one sheep that was lost. Or was he a goat? He was certainly a sheep as long as he followed Christ. Why would a goat be following Christ? Matthew 26:14,47, Mark 14:10,43, Luke 22:3,47, John 6:71 all show Judas was one of the twelve. Judas was chosen by Christ, walked with Christ, left all and followed Christ. Shared in the miracle working power of Christ, even shared in the last Supper with Christ and the disciples, Ps. 41 says Judas was a close friend of Jesus. Sometime during his walk he allowed satan to enter him and betray Christ. Judas Iscariot is a big big problem for the person believing in Eternal Security, not to mention Calvinism in general. Unless we believe Judas went to heaven, which I don't think is strongly supported by scripture.

Considering Judas Iscariot, I think it emphasises the importance of "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". If you hear His voice, and if you follow Him, you are a sheep. Can be a sheep be lost? Well no, not as long as they are a sheep. But if that sheep turns into a goat...
We can't overlook the truth that one's spiritual condition can change from righteous to evil as shown with Demas, the Prodigal Son and Solomon.As confirmed by a scripture I have quoted earlier Ezekial 23:11 "if a righteous man forsaketh his way"..

 

[MahogonySnail]

that makes sense Merry heart...what do you think cast into the fire and burnt means though?

John 15:6
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

To me it doesn't sound like a loving type of nice little trim hair cut?

 

[MahogonySnail]

The branch in v. 6 is never said to be in the vine.

I think a normal and obvious reading of the following verses would assume that the branch is in the vine. The branch does not bear fruit, some branches don't bear fruit, even though they are in the vine. The branches are cast out, and since they are no longer in the vine, they wither and die. That's what happened to the fig tree that Jesus cursed in another passage, it had no fruit and it withered and died.

Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The reason unfruitful branches are not cut off is because they are totally useless little sprigs. But in the later season if they are still fruitless, the branches have grown more and become more "woody" which means that at least they can now be cut off and used for firewood.

So the fire in this case is not punishment or destruction of any kind, but putting them to good use somewhere else?

Most of my bible commentaries say otherwise I'm afraid.

 

[NoahsDad]

Rom 11:16 For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive-tree, art ingrafted among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive-tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boastest, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be ingrafted.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but towards thee, goodness, if thou shalt continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[NoahsDad]

A little condescending there NoahsDad, dontcha think?

No, the bible doesn't say the word future but it sure seems to imply it when it says "all" numerous times. It doesn't say "rapture" either but I believe it just the same. But that's another thread...

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39
--------- "nor things to come" sounds like the FUTURE to me.----------

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. "
John 10:27-29
---------- Would you say this appears to be temporary, conditional, or eternal salvation?---------

My appologies if this seemed a bit condescending,but the fact remains,that is exactally what I was told by those who subscribe to the eternal security doctrine.
Now,Just to clarify what I Myself believe and subscribe to,(ie) my doctrine or learned studies,

I believe this
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And thus if one member suffers all the members suffer with it; or, if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, next miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of languages.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak in languages? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.
Now this can also apply to doctrine or denominations........
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by them who are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in my own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ hath not sent me to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but to us who are saved, it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For when in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But to them who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
So from what Im seein ,it seems to me like a few parts of the body are boasting against the rest of the body and can only result in a disasterous conclusion.