NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for the Christian Faith

MadHermit · Mar 12, 2019

(6) I visited a former local school superintendent because his wife was dying of cancer. He shared this testimony about his niece Tami. Tami was a young college student who died unexpectedly on the campus of Washington State University. After her death, Tami often appeared in comforting waking visions to her grieving Mom. In her last visit, she appeared only from the waist up and lamented, "I'm sorry, Mom, but my progress here is about to move me out of range in Heaven; so this must be my last visitation."

That Christmas, the superintendent's family gathered here for a family reunion at which Tami's Mom was present. The superintendent drove to a mini-mart to pick up some milk and eggs for the meals. The cashier gave him a dollar and some change. But as he was putting the dollar in his wallet, he noticed something astounding; the dollar was signed "Tami" with a smiley face in thick black marker!
Most females with this name spell it "Tammy" rather than "Tami." This paranormal writing was Tami's last good-bye card to her family after she had announced her final visionary visit to her Mom.

There seems to be an ADC pattern in which the deceased loved one leaves a physical memento from the etheric realm for a loving keepsake. (1) In my 2nd case, the late Nellie left a calendula flower that her family pressed and kept. (2) On the nightly radio program "Coast to Coast" Dr. Lind was interviews about his hospital patients' NDEs. He witnessed one dying lady enveloped in a heavenly light, looking joyfully upward at the angel sent to take her home. At one point she said, "Oh wait, doctor, the angel has something for you." She then opened her cupped hand and gave him a 4-leaf clover, which he kept in a glass in his office. Like Nellie's calendula, this was an etheric artifact from the other side. Dr. Lind noticed that it gradually dematerialized after a couple of weeks. (3) One day Bob (my worship chairman) noticed his deceased mother's wedding ring lying on top of his made bed! She had been dead for 30 years. As with the 4-leaf clover, that ring was kept but dematerialized shortly thereafter. (4) In Jesus' ADC resurrection appearance by the Sea of Galilee, He bakes fish and bread on a fire by the shore (John 21:9).

MadHermit · Mar 13, 2019

Notice how critics freeze like Bambi in the headlights when confronted by the accumulating evidence of the authenticity of NDEs and ADCs. Their silence about these cases is deafening! Here is a different type of NDE evidence.

(6) NDEs IN WHICH THE DYING WITNESSES ENCOUNTER DECEASED RELATIVES THEY NEVER KNEW THEY HAD:

(A) Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan pastor in Nebraska. His little son, Colton, at age 4 almost died in surgery from an adverse reaction to acute appendicitis. When Colton recovered and returned home, he gradually revealed his encounter with Jesus, God, Heaven's dazzling beauty, and much more.

More evidentially crucial, he recalled being greeted and hugged by a little girl who identified herself as his sister. When Colton told his Mom Sonja that he had 2 sisters, Sonja thought he was mixing up his female cousin with a second sister. Sonja insisted that Cassie was his only sister. Then Colton (age 4!) contradicted his Mom, telling her, "After she hugged me at Heaven's gate, she told me she died in your tummy!" Sonja was stunned because she had never told her young children about her miscarriage. Mom then asked Colton, "What was her name?" Colton's stunning reply: "You never gave her a name."

Colton then described traveling around Heaven with "Pop," his great grandfather whom he had never met.. Pop is the name that Colton's Dad, Todd, gave this man. Pop shared details of his life with young Todd that Todd had never shared with Colton! Todd showed little Colton a picture of his elderly grandfather with glasses, but Colton couldn't recognize him, adding that no one in Heaven wears glasses! On a hunch, Todd then showed Colton a photo of a young version of his grandfather and Colton at once recognized him! In
Heaven there is no aging; so we can evidently look as young as we want! This fact is attested in other NDEs.

(B) Dr. Eben Alexander is a top neurosurgeon who taught at Harvard Medical School. The most severe kind of fatal meningitis destroyed his cerebral cortex to the point that his subsequent experience of Paradise and encounter with God should have been impossible. But what really convinced him was his NDE encounter with a beautiful young woman floating with him on a butterfly wing and sending him reassuring thoughts of how deeply he was loved.

Dr. Alexander had been adopted as a child and had never been able to track down his birth parents. But his quest for them finally paid off after his unexpected and miraculous recovery. During this joyful visit, he was told about his sister who had recently died. They mailed him a photo of her that changed his life: he realized at once that she was the beautiful girl on the giant butterfly! You need to watch this brief thrilling video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...B0714D5A710672135235B0714D5A7106721&FORM=V...

Just think of it! 4-year-ld Colton Burpo's NDE brought him a hug from his sister who died in childbirth, a sister unknown to him. Now Dr. Alexander also encounters his unknown dead sister. And these 2 cases could be multiplied with similar verifications.

Sketch · Mar 13, 2019

John146 said:

Did Peter discount his experience? I doubt it.
Are you referring to the more sure word of prophecy?
I don't think that was in reference to scripture.

Sketch · Mar 13, 2019

John146 said:

Nope. His statement is additive, not subtractive. "We also have..."
And the reference is to prophecy not the Bible.

2 Peter 1:16-19
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Sketch · Mar 13, 2019

@MadHermit
My views on the body, soul, and spirit feed into this topic.
These views are highly debatable. So debate rather than attack.

Here's how I define the terms.
body: The physical part of our being that is temporal.
soul: The individuality of our being. The part that leaves the body behind and goes into eternity.
spirit: The spiritual part of our being that is eternal.

Most would agree on my definitions of body and spirit. (except perhaps the "eternal" part)
The biggest disagreements will probably be about my definition of the soul.

Here's a funny question to get us thinking about this.
If you had a brain transplant, who would you be?

This is a funny question because we can understand that the brain is where our mind "lives".
And who we are is carried in our mind.

The mind is somewhat like a computer.
I see the brain like a physical hard drive and our mind as the operating system and data.
In the same way that data can be removed from one computer and transferred to another,
our mind can operate when removed from the body. This explains why a person can
have an experience of hovering over their body while doctors work to revive them.
The mind is operating outside of the body. And the person that has an experience like this
will refer to it as themselves that is above looking down on their physical body.

John146 · Mar 13, 2019

Sketch said:

Actually, prophecy is pointing to Scripture. Scripture is a more sure word than hearing voices and seeing visions.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Sketch · Mar 13, 2019

John146 said:

I disagree.
The point is about prophecy, not about scripture. The example is scripture, but not the point.
Scripture has its basis in prophecy. The written word (of prophecy) was the spoken word originally.
He is qualifying NT prophecy. Why would he need to tell the church to pay attention to the scriptures?
The church was "... built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..." - Eph.2:19-21

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

John146 · Mar 13, 2019

Sketch said:

I disagree.
The point is about prophecy, not about scripture. The example is scripture, but not the point.
Scripture has its basis in prophecy. The written word (of prophecy) was the spoken word originally.
He is qualifying NT prophecy. Why would he need to tell the church to pay attention to the scriptures?
The church was "... built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..." - Eph.2:19-21

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Well, the plain text is pointing to Scripture, “knowing this first...”

Sketch · Mar 13, 2019

John146 said:

That means, "Above all, you must understand..." Must understand what?
"... that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things."
This is talking about the prophecy BEFORE it was scripture, NOT scripture by itself.

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

John146 · Mar 13, 2019

Sketch said:

That means, "Above all, you must understand..." Must understand what?
"... that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things."
This is talking about the prophecy BEFORE it was scripture, NOT scripture by itself.

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

You would do well to get yourself a King James Bible. Prophecy to Scripture = a more sure word.

Sketch · Mar 13, 2019

John146 said:

"We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it..."
Why would Peter say that if he was talking about the OT scriptures? Where's the news?

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

garee · Mar 14, 2019

I disagree.
The point is about prophecy, not about scripture. The example is scripture, but not the point.
Scripture has its basis in prophecy. The written word (of prophecy) was the spoken word originally.
He is qualifying NT prophecy. Why would he need to tell the church to pay attention to the scriptures?
The church was "... built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..." - Eph.2:19-21

Prophecy is scripture written dow . God's witness to men . The church is built on the word of God, prophecy, the same foundation used of the apostles and prophets. Not built on the person of the apostles amd prophets but the "spirit of prophecy". The Holy Spirit of God.

garee · Mar 14, 2019

Sketch said:

We are not born with the mind of Christ. It the gift given that we can let the mind of Christ influence our deeds.

We are not only taught by God not seen but comforted and he brings to our minds the things he has taught us.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You could say he is the hard drive,

I don't think our brain can store written data as a law. New brain new memories .

For who knows the thoughts of man save the man who experiences them?

MadHermit · Mar 16, 2019

(6) About 6 years ago, our former male school superintendent shared this ADC with me. Tami, the daughter of his wife's sister, died unexpectedly at Washington State University. But in the first year after her passing, Tami often appeared in waking visions to her grieving Mom and this was a great comfort to her. Tami's visionary appearances were full-bodied, but one day she appeared to her Mom only from the waist up and said, "I'm sorry, Mom, but my progress over here means that I will shortly be out of range to continue these visitations. So this is my good-bye until we meet in Heaven."

Tami's Mom joined our ex-school superintendent's family for a reunion that Christmas. He went to a local mini-mart to buy eggs and a carton of milk. He received a dollar and some change from the cashier and was about to put the dollar in his wallet when he noticed something stunningly bizarre: a smiley face had been drawn in thick black marker on the dollar bill, signed by "Tami!" Most females with this name spell it "Tammy." The family praised God for this final sign of Tami's postmortem survival and of her continuing love for her family. This message on that dollar bill is yet another example of artifacts left by recently deceased relatives in ADCs and NDEs.

maxwel · Mar 16, 2019

MadHermit said:

Most Compelling?

I cannot see how "most compelling" is a proper criteria for a Christian's methods.

A. There are many Christian frauds who are quite compelling by promising potential converts they'll all become rich.
B. During the middle ages, people were sometimes compelled to convert by threat of death.
C. The Catholic Church has often compelled people to spend money on indulgences by promising them eternal pardon for some cash.
D. The Muslims are quite good at compelling acts of violent devotion by promising 72 virgins in the afterlife.

Christians are not to be concerned with what is "most compelling"...
we are to be concerned with truth.

"Most compelling" is not a Christian criteria for... anything.

...

MadHermit · Mar 16, 2019

maxwel said:

"Compelling" means "rivetingly persuasive."
"To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I might by all means win some (1 Corinthians 9:22)."

MadHermit · Mar 16, 2019

Maxwel, you remind me of the guy who complaied to 19th century evangelist D. L. Moody: "I don't like your method of saving souls!" A smiling Moody replied, "I'm not sure I like it either. What's your method of soul-winning?"

maxwel · Mar 16, 2019

MadHermit said:

Paul however does NOT say, "To the liars who spread bull poo I became a liar who spreads bull poo."

TRUTH actually matters in our methodology.

When Paul said, "that by all means I might save some",
the "all means" is intrinsically understood,
by the veracity of scripture,
and by the character of God,
to NOT include lies, distortions, half truths, rumors, and nonsense.

VERACITY matters.

..

MadHermit · Mar 16, 2019

maxwel said:

Kindly season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor and actually read all my ADC and NDE testimonies to demonstrate why these eyewitness testimonies with awesome verifications are, to use your term, "bull poo." In fact, as I noted, the evidence of such reports for postmortem survival is superior to that for Jesus' resurrection and, just for that reason, makes Gospel resurrection anecdotes more convincing. Surely you don't consider the Gospel resurrection narratives "bullpoo."

maxwel · Mar 16, 2019

MadHermit said:

1. My only point so far:
So far, the only issue I have specifically raised in this thread is about your contention that "compelling" equates to grounds for a methodology.

I think that is biblically and logically false.
Something can be compelling without being either moral or true... therefore, "compelling" is not a metric we should use for our methods.

So, when you say, "I use this method because it is the most compelling"... that is neither a moral or biblical reason for a methodology.

That is really the only issue I was trying to raise.

2. But I can certainly raise other issues.

If simple logic isn't enough "rigor" for you, I can certainly add some more.

3. This whole topic is a Pointless Endeavor:
I could raise the issue that Jesus himself said all of this stuff was pointless.

Yes, Jesus said all of these issues you're talking about are ENTIRELY POINTLESS.

He said, quite clearly, that even if one rose from the dead, that would not convince, or change any minds, of people who wouldn't believe the written scripture.

Luk 16:31
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Jesus made it quite clear that if someone will not believe the written scritpture, then they will not be persuaded by someone rising from the dead?
Why?
Because if they won't listen to the scripture, their hearts are CHOOSING to go against God.
If someone is choosing to go against God, then nothing is going to make them change their mind.

So, do we need books full of near-death experiences to "convince" or "compel" people there is a God?
No.
Not at all.
God says, in scripture, that people already know him through creation, nature, and their own internal conscience.
And on top of all that, God has given them the written word of God.

If people won't listen to what they already have, Jesus himself said that they cannot be convinced...
even if someone raises from the dead.

Jesus said all of this was pointless.

Sorry.

...

NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for the Christian Faith

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