Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[KDW4Him]

I haven't been to one church that preaches OSAS.

The only place I ever hear about it is on here.

I have been to those churches. The biggest issues are the non-OSAS side distorts what the OSAS theology teaches. Just as non-Catholics distort what Catholicism actually is, etc., etc. therefor to know the theology you need to hear from the churches. Here is an example of a teaching. James MacDonald..."Are You Saved"?

 

[KDW4Him]

Is oSAS a calvinist thing. I always get confused about them when they claim they are Gods chosen before they are even born . And everyone else is...not.

Leaving Calvinism off the table and just thinking about this logically....

Since God is outside of time God knows who will truly follow Him in the end. So, is it really God choosing or still the person making the choice?

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes , the LORD is teaching me well...
I see the flesh and the spirit warring with each other , they will always be opposites until we are called home and be fully in the spirit with no flesh....
Yes our mind needs renewing everyday by feeding on the Word of God , but for now we still have the flesh that battles with our spirit everyday , that is how I get the story about the flesh hanging on...xox...

Well, I can agree that we are tempted by our desires that haven't yet been dealt with by Holy Spirit.

Ive been thinking much about this scripture:


Luk 8:15　 But the ones on the good soil are the people who hear the word but also hold on to it with good and honest hearts, producing a crop through endurance."

Yes , the LORD is teaching me well...
I see the flesh and the spirit warring with each other , they will always be opposites until we are called home and be fully in the spirit with no flesh....
Yes our mind needs renewing everyday by feeding on the Word of God , but for now we still have the flesh that battles with our spirit everyday , that is how I get the story about the flesh hanging on...xox...

I agree we can be tempted by desires within not yet dealt with through Holy Spirit. But, I won't call it flesh but mindsets we have created habitually.


Luk 8:15　 But the ones on the good soil are the people who hear the word but also hold on to it with good and honest hearts, producing a crop through endurance."

This is the ISV but the KJV uses patience for the word endurance. Am thinking this could be patience with ourselves with fruit bearing.

Circumcision naturally cuts flesh off. Nothing hanging on for infection, decay, etc. Suffering for the child.

We are dead to sin. Takes time to sink in. Sometimes much much time but the facts are how God views us through the body of His Son.

 

[stonesoffire]

Leaving Calvinism off the table and just thinking about this logically....

Since God is outside of time God knows who will truly follow Him in the end. So, is it really God choosing or still the person making the choice?

I believe it's both. The latter would be the whosoevers.

 

[stonesoffire]

This is how I view eternal security and the effects of it on our thinking.

Being secure in knowing we are His...keeps our focus on above and the help we receive from this. Not being secure will result in fear and works of trying to keep us approved before God.

Only Jesus my friends. I've been in the fear part and it's torture. Not from Father.

 

[KDW4Him]

I believe it's both. The latter would be the whosoevers.

OK, so if I called "it's both" "the Elect" does that make me a Calvinist and wrong? Or does that just refer to the eternally saved no matter what point they are at in their life inside of time? IE: just born but not made the choice yet and God knowing their choice.

 

[stonesoffire]

OK, so if I called "it's both" "the Elect" does that make me a Calvinist and wrong? Or does that just refer to the eternally saved no matter what point they are at in their life inside of time? IE: just born but not made the choice yet and God knowing their choice.

I don't know about a Calvinist but in my opinion, it makes us a son or daughter sent here with a mission.

Am not entirely sold on this....still in the process of understanding. And it could be entirely wrong....but the scriptures seem to allude to this.

 

[KDW4Him]

I don't know about a Calvinist but in my opinion, it makes us a son or daughter sent here with a mission.

Am not entirely sold on this....still in the process of understanding. And it could be entirely wrong....but the scriptures seem to allude to this.

For me once you take time out of the equation IE: where God is, Calvinism is a non issue. I guess arminianism (sp?) would be a non issue too.

 

[stonesoffire]

For me once you take time out of the equation IE: where God is, Calvinism is a non issue. I guess arminianism (sp?) would be a non issue too.

I don't think in "isms". It's Jesus the head, and we members of His body.

I don't take time out of the equation for this world, but God is indeed outside time. And we are too if we are Spirit and not flesh.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

This is how I view eternal security and the effects of it on our thinking.

Being secure in knowing we are His...keeps our focus on above and the help we receive from this. Not being secure will result in fear and works of trying to keep us approved before God.

Only Jesus my friends. I've been in the fear part and it's torture. Not from Father.

ammmmmen my sister

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[preston39]

I haven't been to one church that preaches OSAS.

The only place I ever hear about it is on here.

It is one of the new....new age religion interpretations of The Bible appearing since the 1960's. It is wide spread.

 

[preston39]

"Baptism is not required"...is another one of the 10-12 new age interpretations of scriptures which all are pure .....end time delusions..... now part of mainstream Christianity.

Don't fall for that bunk.

 

[Didymous]

Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.[/QUOT

Most churches don't teach that, it's mostly free grace churches, and they are a minority most areas. If you believe that you have to add something to what Jesus did on the cross-then it's you who has a false doctrine-along with the majority of churches that teach some form of faith plus works nonsense.

 

[Didymous]

It is one of the new....new age religion interpretations of The Bible appearing since the 1960's. It is wide spread.

You are also in error. Free grace churches have been teaching faith plus nothing much longer than that.

 

[Didymous]

I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.



I’m writing this post because I am concerned about a dangerous and false doctrine that permeates the Christian church.



It is the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Eternal Security”. This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT.



I believe that the Bible does not teach this but most Christian churches are teaching this today.



Because of the length of this post I had to make 2 posts. The original post for this thread and then the first reply is also from me to finish the post. Thank you to all who take the time to read this.



Now let me explain, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, why I think that “Once Saved Always Saved” is a lie.



Let me start with John 3: 16. Perhaps the most famous verse in the Bible. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”



We also have John 5: 24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”



And John 6: 47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”



So what do these 3 verses have in common? The Greek word for faith/believe is Pistis. It is in the present tense in the Greek in all of these verses. The present tense in Greek denotes a “kind of action” that is continuous. It means a CONTINUAL coming to Christ in faith.



The Christian church for the most part teaches that you can “accept Christ” by believing in Him and you have “eternal life”. No repentance required. No continuing in faith. Just walk that aisle and “get saved”. This is giving many people in the church a false belief that they are saved.



Eternal Life isn’t something that is deposited inside of you which is how many Christians think of it. I think the term “born again” adds to the confusion. Also people think that the sealing of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1: 13 and Ephesians 4: 30 is permanent.



BEING “BORN AGAIN” AND “SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT” ARE BOTH REVERSIBLE IN THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THERE ARE AT LEAST 2 CLASSES OF GENUINE BELIEVERS.



How do I know these 2 things? In this post I will try to show you why these statements are true. Let me give you some examples from SCRIPTURE ALONE. Not my opinions.



You will find the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8. The version in Luke 8 is especially helpful. Let us take a close look at the second and fourth soils in these parables and also compare it with John 15 and the parable of the vine and branches.



What does Jesus say about the second soil? He says five specific things:



1 - Mark 4: 5, That the soil is rocky with not much depth of earth (a bad heart).

2 - Luke 8: 6, That it sprang up.

3 - Luke 8: 13, That in the time of testing/temptation they immediately fall away

4 - Luke 8: 6, That it withered away

5 - Luke 8: 13, That they BELIEVE for a while



The last point is especially important. I have spoken with people who believe in Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved and they always try and tell me that the second soil never really believed. They are calling Jesus a liar. Probably not on purpose but that is what they are saying.



Jesus Himself says that the second soil REALLY BELIEVES. That is what the Scripture says.



Now let’s look at John 15: 1-6 and see how it relates to the second soil:



In this parable Jesus is talking about remaining in Him which we do by faith. What happens to the branch in John 15: 6? He loses his faith and is broken off from the vine. So what is the fate of this branch? It is the same as the second soil.



He withers and dies. The same description as what happens to the second soil when he falls away.

And we are told in John 15: 6 the branches are gathered and thrown into the fire and burned. This is an obvious reference to the Lake of Fire and the second death.



What does it say about the fourth soil? That they hear the word with a “Good and Sincere” heart. They are good soil. They bear fruit with patience as the parable tells us.



SO YOU SEE WE HAVE AT LEAST TWO CLASSES OF REAL BELIEVERS.



One with good and sincere hearts (the fourth soil) and one with bad hearts (the second soil which is rocky). If you examine the three versions of this parable closely you will see that the condition of the soil is equal to the condition of the heart.



It also helps to look at John 2: 23-25 and also John 8: 31. These are both second soil type believers. How do we know this? What does Jesus Himself say about them in these two passages?



25, “…many BELIEVED in Jesus but Jesus did not believe in them…” Why did Jesus not believe in these BELIEVERS? He tells you in the verses. They have bad hearts. They don’t really love Him. They won’t stay long.



Same thing in John 8: 31 when Jesus says to those that BELIEVED in Him that “…if you continue in My word then you are really My disciples…”



The Scripture in both these passages says that these people REALLY BELIEVED. The same thing as what Jesus says about the second soil and the branch in John 15.



THESE ARE FOUR DIFFERENT PASSAGES THAT SHOW THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO CLASSES OF GENUINE BELIEVERS. To deny this is to deny Scripture and call Jesus a liar. These are not my opinions.



So how does the “new birth” work, and being “sealed with the Holy Spirit” work?



To use a crude analogy it works like electricity. Please hear me. I am not saying Jesus is electricity. He is infinitely greater obviously. I am trying to use an analogy to get the point across. I am trying to get you to think about how the “new birth” and “sealing” work in the biblical way.



Like I said earlier, many Christians think the “new birth” and “sealing by the Holy Spirit” are one-time things that are permanent and irreversible. This is false. Let me show you:



Remember John 15 and the vine and branches we just talked about? Jesus is the vine and we are the branches just as the parable tells us. What does a vine do?



It pushes it’s life giving sap into the branches otherwise the branches would die. Just like electricity lights a light bulb.



Ephesians 2: 1 says that we are all dead in sins. We have all been born physically alive thanks to our parents but spiritually dead thanks to Adam and Eve and their lack of faith in the Garden.



We are all empty vessels, or empty light bulbs if you will, walking around that need to be filled with Christ’s Spirit. How does that happen?



Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3: 3, “..you must be born again…” How?



By faith in Christ. You are that empty light bulb/vessel. When you believe in Him you flip the light switch on and the electricity/Jesus heats up the filament (your dead spirit) and causes the light bulb to shine. So when people see a true Christian they are seeing Jesus shining bright through that person.



As soon as you believe you are “born again” and “sealed with the Holy Spirit”. When we read of conversions in the book of Acts it works just like that.



But can you become “unborn” and “unsealed”? The biblical answer is YES.



This terminology is a stumbling block to the person who believes in Eternal Security/OSAS. The reason it is a stumbling block is because they think the “new birth” and “sealing” are irreversible. They are not. YOUR FAITH IS ALWAYS REQUIRED YOUR WHOLE LIFE UNTIL YOU DIE AND YOUR FAITH COMES FROM YOU ALONE. JESUS DOES NOT BELIEVE FOR YOU.



It works like electricity. When you stop trusting in Christ, you flip the light switch off. No more electricity/Jesus. The filament goes cold just like when you turn off a light bulb and there is no more light. Jesus’ presence has left you because you don’t have faith in Him anymore.



This fits the exact five details that I gave you earlier about the second soil. Remember them?



1 - “Rocky Soil” = Bad heart that doesn’t really love God

2 - “Life springs up.” This one is very important. We are all born dead spiritually with no life in us. Only God has spiritual life. Their faith was real because they were attached to His life giving Spirit.

3 - “In the time of testing/temptation they immediately fall away” This is more proof of a bad heart. You can’t “fall away” unless you had real faith.

4 - “they withered away” Just like the branch in John 15 that stopped believing also. They withered because Christ’s life was in them and now Christ’s Spirit has left them when they flipped the light switch off.

5 - JESUS SAYS THEY WERE REAL BELIEVERS. The eternal security/OSAS must stop denying that this is true. Jesus says it is true. But these people have bad hearts and don’t love Him so they lose their faith and perish.



What about the “sealing by the Holy Spirit” in Ephesians 1: 13 and Ephesian 4: 30?


POST CONTINUED IN FIRST REPLY

If you can find one verse in John that teaches whatever form of faith plus works you adhere to, i'd like to see it.

 

[Didymous]

"Baptism is not required"...is another one of the 10-12 new age interpretations of scriptures which all are pure .....end time delusions..... now part of mainstream Christianity.

Don't fall for that bunk.

Adding baptism to the finished work of the cross is another faith plus works delusion.

 

[JaumeJ]

I haven't been to one church that preaches OSAS.

The only place I ever hear about it is on here.

Thank you for this question, and the answers you receivd have cleared things up for me. Not that I did not already have the understanding, but, I just did not know where that osas came from. God bless you, and keep up the good words.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is one of the new....new age religion interpretations of The Bible appearing since the 1960's. It is wide spread.

Thank you for this wonderful realization. The Holy Spirit entered into me in th e late 1960's and dbecaus I have never seen this osas teaching until coming here to the forum, i WAS IN THE dark about how it came about. It is the devil telling folks they can do danything they want as long as the give ip service......no way. God bless you always.

 

[Endoscopy]

"Baptism is not required"...is another one of the 10-12 new age interpretations of scriptures which all are pure .....end time delusions..... now part of mainstream Christianity.

Don't fall for that bunk.

ROTFL

You ignore what Jesus says. Why is that??

OSAS

John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Great Commission
Baptism

Matthew 28:16-20 The Great Commission

NIV
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[Didymous]

Thank you for this wonderful realization. The Holy Spirit entered into me in th e late 1960's and dbecaus I have never seen this osas teaching until coming here to the forum, i WAS IN THE dark about how it came about. It is the devil telling folks they can do danything they want as long as the give ip service......no way. God bless you always.

You're still in the dark about some things.