Will you consider something carefully I want to say to you about what you so nicely explained to me here? Please listen carefully...
Many people here are saying it. Most say it is the way to get saved, and how obeying has nothing ever to do with our salvation after believing. Some even say that our believing didn't have anything to do with our getting saved (Calvinism). So please stop saying nobody is saying don't obey God. You are saying to believe and do not do anything else and that that is obeying.
Believing has everything to do with getting saved (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You keep saying that believing is not enough which means that the OBJECT our belief/faith (Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption) is not enough and is IN-sufficient to save, which explains why you turn to supplements. I'm not hearing anyone say don't obey God, but that seems to be all you hear from believers who teach salvation by grace through faith, not works and don't agree with your "works based" false gospel.
Faith without right action IS EMPTY no matter how strong and wonderful faith is.
Faith that results in no action at all is not wonderful faith, but is an
empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) You must think that ALL faith is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot seem to grasp a
deeper faith which
trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, which would explain why you have so much faith in works.
We are not saved by just faith and then a wait and see if that faith was a live saving faith if the person obeys later.
We are saved by a living faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:5-9) and this living faith results in obedience. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).
I have actually had people argue that to me---they say, "faith alone to get saved and then after they are saved they will start to obey". Then I say what if they don't start obeying? The person said to me, "Then their faith was not real."
Did you hear that? That means then faith alone IS dead and cannot save---just like James says.
I hear that and I already understand that. We are not saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works at all (James 2:14) and we are also not saved by faith and works. (Romans 4:5-6) Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Simple!
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
See! That is what you are saying too, just like I said you do, even though you deny it.
I'm not denying that authentic faith in Christ results in obedience. What I'm denying is the false teaching that man is saved based on the merits of his obedience/works which follows faith in Christ.
We are not saved through faith in Christ in the first place unless you do something, like humble yourself and repent of a sin and called on Jesus.
This precedes saving faith in Christ. We will not come to place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation unless we first humble ourself, repent and call on Jesus to save us.
Believe me, I understand exactly what you are saying. You explain your beliefs well! It's just that you need to really consider harder what I am saying.
If you understood exactly what I was saying, then you would not need to resort to straw man arguments or false accusations. Why would I need to consider harder what you are saying? I wasn't born again yesterday and I've heard all of your same arguments before from many others who promote salvation by works, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.
Catholics don't believe in faith alone, or works that Jesus tells us. Jesus says to humble yourself and repent; not, baptize babies who can do no such thing.
Catholics don't believe in salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE, but instead believe in salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works. Those who have been saved through faith have already humbled themselves and repented. Perverting the gospel stems from pride and NOT humility or repentance.
I really do understand how hard it must be to think you finally see and have your eyes opened by God, but then have to give it up because it was false. I tell you though, the true light is better than that.
I will NEVER give up the true light found in Christ. Since you teach salvation by works, I don't expect you to understand the truth of my eye opening experience with the Lord. The apostle Paul clearly stated that the
natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are
spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). The apostle Paul also clearly stated that the gospel is
HID to those who
DON'T BELIEVE...
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). In 1 Corinthians 1:21, we read - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it
pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE. *That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT. Been there, done that, but now I BELIEVE. When will you BELIEVE?
Let me give you an example from my own life. I have a powerful testimony of when I was saved. Even after this powerful salvation, confusion came when I joined a Christian discussion group and there were some people who took extra interest in me and started to convince me about Calvinism being truth. I just couldn't make any sense about what they said. I was so confused, but when I finally understood it, I thought it was God was opening my eyes to His truth. I wanted to learn more about it though and make sure, since I had been in false denominations before. I wanted to know the truth so bad that I hardly ate and sleep for the next couple of weeks while I studied; I even thought about it in my sleep. That's how important it was to me. I finally could see that Calvinism was false. But what would have been horrible is if I kept those false beliefs that I felt when I first 'got it'. What I am trying to say is that just because you 'got it' concerning the faith alone doctrine, it doesn't mean it is the true light. KWIM?
Please explain to me EXACTLY how you believe you were saved. EXACTLY what did you believe or do that YOU believe constitutes your conclusion that you became saved? Just because you had a bad experience with a Christian discussion group that taught Calvinism doesn't mean that salvation through faith in Christ alone is false doctrine or that you found the true light. Do you realize how many false religions and cults fight against salvation through faith in Christ alone and teach salvation by works?
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