Multiple Choice Question

[eternally-gratefull]

So essentially you are saying that the 400 yrs and 430 yrs are the same thing as po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
But didn't Moses write both books? The reason there is a 400 yr and 430 yr problem is because many people do not see this as simply po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Do you have anything else? Can you point to a particular contradiction or error in my proposed theory?

No

I am saying God told abraham His descendants would be enslaved for 400 years

At this time

He had no descendants
They were not enslaved

so in this context, the 400 years had not even started yet (it would be a few decades for this to happen)

and exodus 15 says they departed years after they lived in egypt for 430 years

Now knowing that they did not live at first as slaves (they were GUESTS when they moved down there not slaves, They were made slaves after the pharoah that let them move in died and the next pharoah came in, How long was that? 32 years? we have no way to knoe. but we can assume God knew what he was talking about and trust him) we know that they would not be the same anyway.

Sometimes just thinking helps..

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

No

I am saying God told abraham His descendants would be enslaved for 400 years

At this time

He had no descendants
They were not enslaved

so in this context, the 400 years had not even started yet (it would be a few decades for this to happen)

and exodus 15 says they departed years after they lived in egypt for 430 years

Now knowing that they did not live at first as slaves (they were GUESTS when they moved down there not slaves, They were made slaves after the pharoah that let them move in died and the next pharoah came in, How long was that? 32 years? we have no way to knoe. but we can assume God knew what he was talking about and trust him) we know that they would not be the same anyway.

Sometimes just thinking helps..

To be clear, I am NOT questioning the Word. I am trying to understand it. God's Word is bringing me to question how people are interpreting the Word.

By your math this would mean that Joseph's family and brothers had to be enslaved before he died. But there is no indication at the end of Genesis that Joseph's family and brothers were enslaved. By all accounts they are doing well.

This is why Paul Benware, My church, the colorado church, (and a lot of other evangelical churches are estimating that the total years of enslavement were about 360 yrs or less which does contradict Genesis 15)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be clear, I am NOT questioning the Word. I am trying to understand it. God's Word is bringing me to question how people are interpreting the Word.

By your math this would mean that Joseph's family and brothers had to be enslaved before he died. But there is no indication at the end of Genesis that Joseph's family and brothers were enslaved. By all accounts they are doing well.

This is why Paul Benware, My church, the colorado church, (and a lot of other evangelical churches are estimating that the total years of enslavement were about 360 yrs or less which does contradict Genesis 15)

Um no, Your wrong

Joseph and his family did not live in Egypt until long after they were alive, Egypt bought Joseph. but even then, he lived many years as a prisoner, and eventually became a high level government official. They did not move to egypt until after the death of their father. and they were not made slaves until the next pharaoh came in.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Um no, Your wrong

Joseph and his family did not live in Egypt until long after they were alive, Egypt bought Joseph. but even then, he lived many years as a prisoner, and eventually became a high level government official. They did not move to egypt until after the death of their father. and they were not made slaves until the next pharaoh came in.

If I am wrong then I want to correct it.
So please give me a time line of the events you are talking about and where the 400 and 430 fit in.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Please share with me your timeline.

This is the timeline that I have been shown (credit goes to Paul Benware).
2006 BC-----------------1876 BC---------------1804 BC----------------------1446 BC
Birth of Jacob-----Jacob enters Egypt-----Joseph dies-------------------Exodus
--------------------------------<<--------------------430 yrs------------------------->>
(Where does 400 yrs fit?)
----------------------------------------<<---------------?-- 400 yrs--?--------------->>

For the 400 yrs to fit it this timeline they would have to begin before Joseph's death,
but we know in Genesis this cannot be the case. So where then does the 400 yrs fit?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

My Hypothesis:
2836 BC----------------2706 BC---------------2634 BC---------2276 BC----------------1846 BC------------1446 BC
Birth of Jacob----Jacob enters Egypt---------Joseph dies----Iniquities Begin-----------Enslavement Begins---------Exodus
--------------------------------<---------------430 yrs----------------><------390+40 yrs------><------400 yrs------>
(Where does 430 yrs and 400 yrs fit?)
--------------------------------<---------------430 yrs---------------->-----------------------------<------400 yrs------>

This timeline includes both the 400 yrs (Gen.) and 430 yrs (Exo.) and also includes the 390+40 yrs of iniquities from (Ezek.).
------------------------
Now this Hypothesis needs to be rigorously tested and studied to see if it produces any contradictions in Scripture or in the historical record.

 

[posthuman]

This is the timeline that I have been shown (credit goes to Paul Benware).
2006 BC-----------------1876 BC---------------1804 BC----------------------1446 BC
Birth of Jacob-----Jacob enters Egypt-----Joseph dies-------------------Exodus
--------------------------------<<--------------------430 yrs------------------------->>
(Where does 400 yrs fit?)
----------------------------------------<<---------------?-- 400 yrs--?--------------->>

why do you believe this Benware guy has the right numbers?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

why do you believe this Benware guy has the right numbers?

I go to a growing bible-based evangelical church. It's a great church and its where I found my salvation. I am taking an old testament survey class at my church. The assistant pastor is teaching from a Paul Benware Survey of the Old Testament Book. The pastor agrees with most things in the book. The survey book serves as a tool, it is not a replacement for the Word.

I did not say I believe Benware has all the "right numbers".
I am using Paul Benware's "numbers" as a reference point for my hypothesis.
Please share with me other timelines if you have them. I am not opposed to other timelines.
and I am not close-minded on my hypothesis. If it proves wrong, then it proves wrong.

What I am looking to do is test my hypothesis.

 

[posthuman]

I did not say I believe Benware has all the "right numbers".
I am using Paul Benware's "numbers" as a reference point for my hypothesis.

that being the case i think part of any working hypothesis should be questioning whether those numbers are accurate -- if Mssr. Benware's calculations say the Bible doesn't add up, then the first suspect IMO is Mssr. Benware's math, not the accuracy or obliqueness of scripture. any conclusion based on false premises is worthless, so the premises are primary to verify.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

that being the case i think part of any working hypothesis should be questioning whether those numbers are accurate -- if Mssr. Benware's calculations say the Bible doesn't add up, then the first suspect IMO is Mssr. Benware's math, not the accuracy or obliqueness of scripture. any conclusion based on false premises is worthless, so the premises are primary to verify.

What is you contribution here?

There are two dates that are considered for the Exodus: the early date around 1445 BC, and the late date around 1270 BC
For those that favor the early date this appears to be the accepted timeline (see web link).
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-date-1440bc.htm

This is essentially the same timeline as put forth by Benware and other evangelical sources.

 

[posthuman]

What is you contribution here?

Simply to reinforce that the Bible is correct and when we have calculations from men that indicate it isn't, or we have understandings of the Bible that make it seem false or contradictory, it's not the Bible but our understanding of it or the things we learn from men and assume to be fact that are wrong.

You might find this explanation useful:

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/how-long-were-the-israelites-in-egypt/

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Simply to reinforce that the Bible is correct and when we have calculations from men that indicate it isn't, or we have understandings of the Bible that make it seem false or contradictory, it's not the Bible but our understanding of it or the things we learn from men and assume to be fact that are wrong.

You might find this explanation useful:

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/how-long-were-the-israelites-in-egypt/

So your answer is:
D) 215 yrs

 

[posthuman]

So your answer is:
D) 215 yrs

i haven't answered.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

i haven't answered.

The two most prevalent theories are the 430 yrs and 215 yrs in Egypt:
- The 430 Theory says the 430 yrs begins with Jacob's (Israel's) entry into Egypt (Exodus 12:40).
- The 215 yr theory says the 430 yrs begins with God's Covenant with Abraham (Gal. 3:17).

Both of these theories pit Exodus 12:40 and Gal 3:17 against each other.
But my hypothesis does not.

 

[posthuman]

The two most prevalent theories are the 430 yrs and 215 yrs in Egypt:
- The 430 Theory says the 430 yrs begins with Jacob's (Israel's) entry into Egypt (Exodus 12:40).
- The 215 yr theory says the 430 yrs begins with God's Covenant with Abraham (Gal. 3:17).

Both of these theories pit Exodus 12:40 and Gal 3:17 against each other.
But my hypothesis does not.

True, your hypothesis throws both out.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Exodus 12:40 tells us the Israelites spent a 430 yr period in Egypt.
Exodus 12:41 seems to tell us that the Exodus occurred on the very last 24h day of the 430 yr period.
But this cannot be the case, because if it is the case then there is contradiction in scripture.

The bible is a book of puzzles, and how long the Israelites stayed in Egypt is just one of the many, many puzzles in this awesome book. Exodus 12:40 and 41 are just two pieces of this puzzle. Gal 3:17 is another piece to this puzzle.
Another piece to this puzzle is 2Peter 3:8 "With the Lord a day is like a 1000 years, and a 1000 years is like a day".

You see the Israelites entire unknown stay in Egypt is but a "day" in God's perspective as is shown in Exodus 12:41.
And the 430 years (Exodus 12:40) is just a segment of this entire "day" that the Israelites spent in Egypt.

Gal 3:17 talks of this same 430 year period or segment of time as mentioned in Exodus 12:40. What Gal 3:17 tells us is that this 430 yr period or segment of time fell somewhere between the time of Abraham and the time of the Law. It's just another clue or piece of the puzzle. Acts 7:6 gives us another clue telling us that the 430 yrs period must have come before the 400 yr period.

To figure out this puzzle you have to find all of its pieces in the bible, and you have to fit them all together.
You see people have been trying to solve this puzzle of how many years in Egypt, but have been unable to do so because they do not have all the pieces. YOU CANNOT COMPLETE a PUZZLE WITHOUT HAVING ALL THE PIECES!!!

What are some of the other pieces? Ezekiel 4:5 and 6 (the 390 yr +40 yrs) are two more pieces.

Next question: Where do these two pieces fit in?
Next question: Are their any other pieces missing?

True, your hypothesis throws both out.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Could the Book of Revelation contain one of the pieces needed for solving this 430 yr puzzle?

Revelation:
a surprising and previously unknown fact, especially one that is made known in a dramatic way.

The Book of Revelation, as it is called, should contain previously unknown facts that are delivered in a dramatic way. But where are these unknown facts? Can anyone list any?

Interpretations of The Woman of the Apocalypse in chapter 12 have included the Nation of Israel, and Mary the Mother of God. Could chapter 12 hold a piece (of information) needed for solving this 430 yr puzzle?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Interpretation of Revelation 12:1-6

Verse 1: "Woman clothed with sun, with moon under feet" = Joseph's Dream
Verse 1: "crown of 12 stars on her head" = Jacob's 12 sons

Verse 2: "she was pregnant and cried out in birthing pains" = Jacob's wife Rachel giving birth to Benjamin

Verse 3: "dragon seven heads with seven crowns" = the 7 years of plenty and the 7 years of famine.
Verse 3: "Dragon's ten horns" = 10 of Joseph's brothers that sold him into slavery (Benjamin was either too young or not even born yet)

Verse 4: "The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth" = Rachel's Curse.

Verse 5: "she gave birth to a male child" = Rachel gives birth to Joseph
Verse 5: "who will rule all the nations" = Through Joseph, God blesses the nations. Joseph’s dreams foretold his royal position in the Egyptian court. God promised Abraham a dynasty, a royal seed. Joseph is the first of that seed, who brings God’s blessings to the nations. He is a beloved son and a servant king.

Verse 5: "and her child was snatched up to God" = the brothers initially were going to kill Joseph, instead they sold him into slavery and lied to their father Jacob that his favored son Joseph had died.

Verse 6: "The woman fled to the wilderness to a place God had prepared" = Jacob took his family to Egypt during the famine, as God had intended.

All these verses are about Jacob's family, with emphasis on Joseph. It summarizes how Satan attacked them, but still God's plan prevailed.

Key Question:
What then does the 1260 days mean?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Interpretation of Revelation 12:13-17

Verse 13: “[The Dragon] pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.”
Does Rev 12 speak of one woman or of two different women? Here there is a clear distinction from the first woman who gave "birth to a male child' and the second woman who gave “birth to the male child”. The first woman is Rachel, whereas, the second woman can only be Mary the mother of Jesus.

Verse 14: The woman is given two wings of a great eagle = depiction of angel visiting Joseph in a dream telling them to flee to Egypt.

Verse 15 and 16: “Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman” = depiction of Satan using Herod to send his men out to wipe out the child Jesus in a flood of killings.

Verse 17: '"the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring" = Jesus is a friend, a servant and a brother, thereby making all believers in him the offspring of this woman.

These verses are all about Jesus, Mary and Joseph, with emphasis on Jesus. Again, it shows how Satan attacked them, but still God's plan prevailed.

Key Question:
What does the time, times and half a time (3.5 yrs) mean?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

[Definition of] Revelation:
a surprising and previously unknown fact, especially one that is made known in a dramatic way.

What we already know:
1) We know that the Israelites after being saved by going underneath the waters of the Red Sea and and coming back out (a symbol of baptism) spent 40 years in the wilderness.
2) We know that Jesus after being being baptized (going underneath the waters of the Jordan and coming back out), spent 40 days in the wilderness.

We know that for every year the Israelites (and the bones of Joseph) spent in the wilderness, Jesus spent a day in the wilderness. We also know that both had prior stays in Egypt.

What we do not know:
1) How long did Jesus, Mary and Joseph stay in Egypt (prior to his baptism)?
2) How long did the Israelites and the bones of Joseph stay in Egypt (prior to their baptism)?

Could 3.5 yrs and 1260 yrs, respectively, be a revelation to these long debated questions?
I am saying YES.

This would maintain that for every year the Israelites (and Joseph) spent in Egypt, Jesus spent a day there.