What is falling away as mentioned in Hebrews 6?

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So you think Hebrews is for a different age and a different time and is not doctrine for the church today?

You have got to be kidding me?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sick::sick::sick::cry::cry::cry:
I'm a dispensationalist. I believe the bible is put together according to a time frame. The Church Age ends with Paul's epistles. I love Hebrew and the many wonderful truths about our Saviour, but as you read it, you should know the Jewish flavor it contains. It will be necessary for the Jews in the last days to see this truth about their Messiah.
 

Deade

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So IF a person could fall away, Your in fact saying his sacrifice was insufficient (we need to return to law, which never saved anyone) thus putting him (christ) to open shame.
Come off it EG, I don't believe anyone here has turned to the law for justification. That is something you have conjured up in your head. We law-keepers consider we are saved by grace just like you. You really need to let this go. I won't condemn your walk with Christ as long as you don't condemn mine. :)
 
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obedienttogod

Guest
Since it is a stated fact with evidence, and not a theory, simply do your own research, like I did. It is easily verifiable by scholars.

Did you know that the entire NT can be assembled, minus about 11 verses, from letters and exchanged writings be tween early believers, before the council of Nicea?

Are you even aware that Nicea was convened, in part, as a response to the heretical canon that was being toughted by Marcion?

The canon simply declared the writings that were already in existence.

Do some real digging and research produced by scholars with credentials.

Since the canon in 200 also omitted James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John I guess you consider them as suspect also?


Digging?

Papyrus DOES NOT LIE!!

We know from the first articles used to write on concerning river plants being dried out, glued, flattened, later were sewn, etc. But, we know specifically when the world itself was using these materials to write on. We know by how the process changed indicated a new way of doing things in the world, like it progressed (going from gluing the papyrus to now gluing and sewing)(later on it evolved into sewing more than just the seems). But we know specifically within a 20 year range when these were made and used.

And the Papyrus for Hebrews is 3rd Century.

So, how someone could quote something not yet written and be accepted by scholars is beyond me. But when I look at dates, I can see many theories have changed, including the views and opinions of scholars, since the Papyrus is accurate to within a 99.3% range in dating its factual age.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm a dispensationalist. I believe the bible is put together according to a time frame. The Church Age ends with Paul's epistles. I love Hebrew and the many wonderful truths about our Saviour, but as you read it, you should know the Jewish flavor it contains. It will be necessary for the Jews in the last days to see this truth about their Messiah.
I am a dispensationalist, so it is not a very good reason to back your reasoning.

And hebrws was written to the Jews of the time it was written who had strugggles with trying to resolve the issues between the law they followed for all their lives and this new christian path, which seemed to be at odds..

Not for jews in the end times..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Come off it EG, I don't believe anyone here has turned to the law for justification.


Well according to paul Many not only had already done that, But many more were in danger of doing that.. Thats what the book of hebrew was written for. To try to stem to wave of jews returning to law as a means of justificaiton
That is something you have conjured up in your head. We law-keepers consider we are saved by grace just like you. You really need to let this go. I won't condemn your walk with Christ as long as you don't condemn mine. :)
I am or was not talking about you now was I?

Try to learn some discernment why don’t you?
 
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obedienttogod

Guest
And what interests me even more, is why Marcion was accused and then charged with Heresy?
It's eerily close to how Martin Luther is seen as a Heretic by the SAME CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Ironically, how you believe coincides to a degree to with what Martin Luther pinned on the doors of the Catholic Church!!

So when we say, HERETIC, and we also know it is related to the CATHOLIC CHURCH, you can bet someone's short hairs were twisted for them to want to make the claim that these men were Heretics..
 
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obedienttogod

Guest
It's the men of the SAME Catholic Church finding others to be HERETICS when pointing out the wrongs of the Catholic Church, that led to the COUNCIL that chose our 66 Books of our Canon.

Imagine that!!

The people who falsely accuses because they are proven wrong, are the ones who tossed many Books aside and chose the 66 Books they did.

And, that's how you Talk about slapping yourself!!
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Well according to paul Many not only had already done that, But many more were in danger of doing that.. Thats what the book of hebrew was written for. To try to stem to wave of jews returning to law as a means of justificaiton

I am or was not talking about you now was I?

Try to learn some discernment why don’t you?
Yes EG, that was addressed earlier in the epistle. But Hebrew 5 and 6 was addressing early church-goers not producing fruits. The only reference to the law in those two chapters are to the Melchisedec priesthood.

Like stones pointed out in post #98, this scripture is chiding them for need milk when they should be teachers. She pointed out they are still plowing the ground when they should be showing fruits. :)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes EG, that was addressed earlier in the epistle. But Hebrew 5 and 6 was addressing early church-goers not producing fruits. The only reference to the law in those two chapters are to the Melchisedec priesthood.

Like stones pointed out in post #98, this scripture is chiding them for need milk when they should be teachers. She point out they are still plowing the ground when they should be showing fruits. :)
No, He is saying that here, Again, If you would read the 2 verses immediately following these verses in question. It speaks of those who are blessed for producing fruit, and those who do not produce fruit being burned, But still being saved.

It all fits.

But nice try.. You want this to say one can lose salvation don’t you?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I'm a dispensationalist. I believe the bible is put together according to a time frame. The Church Age ends with Paul's epistles. I love Hebrew and the many wonderful truths about our Saviour, but as you read it, you should know the Jewish flavor it contains. It will be necessary for the Jews in the last days to see this truth about their Messiah.
The church age ends with the word of God in Paul's epistles? What the purpose of it after that"

Jewish flavor. Christian is the new name he named his bride as Jewish flavor.

Jewish flesh is simply used as metaphor to distinguish between belief. (A faith that exclusively come form from hearing God not seen) and the same flesh is used to show unbelief in mankind. God is no respecter of flesh of nations never was never could be. If it applies to a Gentile it applies to a Jew and vice versa. .
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I'm a dispensationalist. I believe the bible is put together according to a time frame. The Church Age ends with Paul's epistles. I love Hebrew and the many wonderful truths about our Saviour, but as you read it, you should know the Jewish flavor it contains. It will be necessary for the Jews in the last days to see this truth about their Messiah.
No doubt you are right about the "Jewish flavor" of Hebrews. But that is quite different from saying that the teaching (doctrine) of the book is only for the Jews in a coming age!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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what???? Where do you come up with this stuff?
Quite easily! Just by reading the text carefully and coming without preconceived agenda. (And in this case having a little knowledge of Greek verbs and participles)

Here is Hebrews 6:4-6 in the ESV:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Here was my earlier post:

the verbs in verse 6 are present participles and occur at the same time as the main verb "to renew". It is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are crucifying again . . . and putting to an open shame . . . If you want to renew them to repentance you must first deal with the the sin they are doing (crucifying again and putting to an open shame) and then you can renew them to repentance. But you cannot renew them to repentance while at the same time they are doing these sins.



Essentially the ESV captures the thought if you replace the word "since" in verse 6 with "while" (because of the fact that the following two verbs are present participles.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
The church age ends with the word of God in Paul's epistles? What the purpose of it after that"

Jewish flavor. Christian is the new name he named his bride as Jewish flavor.

Jewish flesh is simply used as metaphor to distinguish between belief. (A faith that exclusively come form from hearing God not seen) and the same flesh is used to show unbelief in mankind. God is no respecter of flesh of nations never was never could be. If it applies to a Gentile it applies to a Jew and vice versa. .
Are you a "replacement theology" believer? The body of Christ has replaced the nation of Israel?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
No doubt you are right about the "Jewish flavor" of Hebrews. But that is quite different from saying that the teaching (doctrine) of the book is only for the Jews in a coming age!
I certainly don't mean only...I mean it is directed to the nation of Israel, the Hebrews.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I certainly don't mean only...I mean it is directed to the nation of Israel, the Hebrews.
It seems to me you are changing what you said earlier: (post #3)

First of all, let's recognize the audience...the Hebrews in the last days. This is not Church Age doctrine. During this time of the last days before the Lord's second coming, a man can fall away from the Lord after receiving life, how? By taking the mark of the beast, one will be condemned for eternity. During this time period one must "endure till the end".


What do you mean by "this is not church age doctrine"? To me that means you are saying that Hebrews is not doctrine (teaching) for the church today? (But now you are saying it is not only for the Hebrews?)
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
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Digging?

Papyrus DOES NOT LIE!!

We know from the first articles used to write on concerning river plants being dried out, glued, flattened, later were sewn, etc. But, we know specifically when the world itself was using these materials to write on. We know by how the process changed indicated a new way of doing things in the world, like it progressed (going from gluing the papyrus to now gluing and sewing)(later on it evolved into sewing more than just the seems). But we know specifically within a 20 year range when these were made and used.

And the Papyrus for Hebrews is 3rd Century.

So, how someone could quote something not yet written and be accepted by scholars is beyond me. But when I look at dates, I can see many theories have changed, including the views and opinions of scholars, since the Papyrus is accurate to within a 99.3% range in dating its factual age.
Beaty papyrus
Digging?

Papyrus DOES NOT LIE!!

We know from the first articles used to write on concerning river plants being dried out, glued, flattened, later were sewn, etc. But, we know specifically when the world itself was using these materials to write on. We know by how the process changed indicated a new way of doing things in the world, like it progressed (going from gluing the papyrus to now gluing and sewing)(later on it evolved into sewing more than just the seems). But we know specifically within a 20 year range when these were made and used.

And the Papyrus for Hebrews is 3rd Century.

So, how someone could quote something not yet written and be accepted by scholars is beyond me. But when I look at dates, I can see many theories have changed, including the views and opinions of scholars, since the Papyrus is accurate to within a 99.3% range in dating its factual age.
Speaking of papyrus;


Papyrus 46



The oldest manuscript of the letters of Paul usually is referred to as papyrus 46, abbreviated p46. Judging from the handwriting used in this manuscript, it is dated around the year 200 and was produced in Egypt. The University of Michigan in Ann Arbor acquired parts of this manuscript, but most pages belong to the Chester Beatty collection in Dublin, Ireland.

This manuscript is not only the oldest extant edition of the letters of Paul but it is at the same time one of the oldest manuscripts in book form known to exist. Up until the fourth century CE literature was copied almost exclusively on scrolls. There is some mystery about the origin of the codex, the Latin term for book in contrast to the scroll. Somehow the public use of the codex is closely connected to the formation of the New Testament. The Christians were apparently the first ones to depart from the scroll and to use the bookform as a medium.

This codex of the letters of Paul was made out of one single quire. That is to say, 52 papyrus leaves were put on top of each other and then folded in the middle; thus forming 104 leaves holding 208 pages of text.

If a codex is made out of one quire, the scribe must carefully calculate how much text the book will have to hold before he starts to write. Once he is past the middle page there is no way to correct a mistake, for any sheet of papyrus added at the end of the codex will give an empty first page.

You can imagine how difficult the calculation was. Consider, for example, the problem of the inner leaves. When you fold a heap of paper in the middle, the inner leaves will stick out and you will want to cut them so the book looks nicer. This is what was done to p46 before the scribe started writing. Now if you do that you should be aware that the inner pages are smaller than the outer ones and hold less text.

For some reason, the scribe of p46 made a mistake when he calculated the amount of paper he needed. After he had filled more than half of the book, he realized there would not be enough room for all the text he planned to copy. He started to write more characters in each line and gradually increased the 26 lines per page in the first half of the codex to 28, then to 30 and in the end to 32 lines per page.

Although the manuscript is in fairly good condition, the outer pages did not survive. The text starts with Rom 5:17, then runs through Hebrews 1 Corinthians 2 Corinthians Ephesians Galatians Philippians Colossians and ends in 1 Thess 5:28. Because many pages still provide their original page numbers it is easy to see that the seven missing outer leaves holding 14 pages of text at the beginning left room for 14 corresponding pages at the end. There is no way to get the rest of 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon on 14 pages of the size used by p46. A fair estimate lies somewhere close to 23 more pages necessary to hold all of the expected text. What the scribe decided to do, we do not know.

It is not necessary to assume that some of the missing letters were unknown to the scribe, although it could of course be possible. But the scribe evidently had difficulties with the length of the text. Two fragments of papyri codices contemporary to p46 have been found in the sands of Egypt, one of them, p32, preserving text from Titus, the other, p87, with text from Philemon, thus proving that these letters were known at the time and in the region, where p46 was produced.

What caused the unusual sequence of letters? Why is Hebrews put between Romans and 1 Corinthians and why does Ephesians precede Galatians?

I think the solution is very simple. It was crucial to a scribe properly to calculate the length of the text before he started to write a codex consisting of a single quire. Facing this situation it probably is a good idea to arrange the different parts according to the length of the text before you start to copy the text. For if you start out with the longest letters and end with the shorter ones, the chances are good you can finish the codex with the end of a letter even if your calculation was wrong. In this case all the scribe would need to do is produce an extra volume out of some additional leaves holding the missing letters. But if you start out with the short letters and end with the long ones the chances are much higher that you are right in the middle of a letter when you hit the last page. And who would want to use a book that ends in the middle of the text?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Quite easily! Just by reading the text carefully and coming without preconceived agenda. (And in this case having a little knowledge of Greek verbs and participles)

Here is Hebrews 6:4-6 in the ESV:

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Here was my earlier post:

the verbs in verse 6 are present participles and occur at the same time as the main verb "to renew". It is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are crucifying again . . . and putting to an open shame . . . If you want to renew them to repentance you must first deal with the the sin they are doing (crucifying again and putting to an open shame) and then you can renew them to repentance. But you cannot renew them to repentance while at the same time they are doing these sins.


Essentially the ESV captures the thought if you replace the word "since" in verse 6 with "while" (because of the fact that the following two verbs are present participles.
Lol, you need to stop with your “preconcieved” idea stuff. Because that is exactly what your doing. Your trying to disprove OSAS. Because you do not believe it, so you will NEVER see a passage that even hints that it may be ok.

Here is what the passage says.

It is impossible, .........., to renew them to repentance,

We can stop right here, the actual theme of the comment is complete as stated.

Then the text goes on...


for again they crucify him on the cross. Putting him to open shame

After this we have the WHY the can not be renewed, and the reason is, Christ would have to be CRUCIFIED AGAIN for whatever CAUSED the to lose salvation in the first place. THIS IDEA (that one can fall away) puts christ to open shame. (The law states one can be renewed once a year because each yea the priest goes in sacrificing bulls and goats)

And just so there is no argument, The author does not stop here

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

We first see the word “For” which is translated. Truely, As it stands, verily verily, indeed, surely. In other words. Here is the truth of the matter.

Second, we see a passage on fruit bearing, and blessings.

If it produces fruit which is useful. It recieves blessing (reward)

If it bears thorns and briers, which helps no one, It 9the work) is rejected. Whos end is to be burned

But the CLINCHER which destroys the thoought this means one can lose salvation, is the fact even the wood hay straw that is produced after tried by fire. Just as in 1 cor 3, It is NEAR to be cursed. Or as paul said, STILL SAVED, even as THROUGH FIRE (he has lost everything he earned in a fire, but he himself is saved.
You can NOT in context based on these FACTS make heb 6 to be saying SALVATION HAS EVER BEEN LOST.



Instead of tryign to find a bible that says what you want. Read the whole thing in context of the book, the passagem, and EVERYTHING that is said in that moment.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I certainly don't mean only...I mean it is directed to the nation of Israel, the Hebrews.
Most of the OT was, as is alot of the NT, it does not mean we can not relate to it today, we have the SAME issues,,