Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Hi gb9, you are oh so right and Followingpeterjenstep's definition of sin is skewed and misleading for everyone. Consequently his application of "Holiness" is wrong; Holiness is a "once for all occurrence" and a, "life long "pursuit" of the believer." Holiness is not something that supports the heresy of "sinless perfectionism."

Hebrews12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hebrews10:10
10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

Sin is the enemy of the people of God, sin as defined by the Lord.
Any dispensation that allies Gods people as evil doers is heresy.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Ephesians 5:3

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
2 thessalonians 1:8-10

We are made Holy through Christ, and in this behaviour we are called to stay.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Pauls enthusiasm for God

5 in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Phil 3:5-8

The problem with ex-legalists they failed to fulfil walking in love because they lacked the Spirit.
They then threw out the requirement to be Holy, pure, righteous and replaced it with a view you
are as you are, a sinner, and pointing to Jesus is ones calling.

To bolster this view, and justify their sin, they create everything a human does as sinful.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Aiming to be like Jesus

How much time do you spend studying Jesus and His life?
Is it truly your hearts desire to be like Him?

Aim for perfection
2 cor 13:11

I know from the comments few believe this to be true and
feel they are 100% opposed to it.
But this testifies to the true state of ones heart.
What is God going to say as to your true love?
In Him or in the world?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Hypocrisy

Walking with the Lord is a road of great joy and victory. It is not a road of dullness, emptiness,
depression, defeat and despair.

Sin distorts our souls, it creates conflicts within which seem unbreakable, where our anger and
emotions hold us prisoner to behaviour and attitudes that destroy our very lives.

The delusion is being cleansed and purified, straightened out will lead to further complexity and
is impossible to untangle the mess within. But God makes us new, takes the old and builds new
reactions and ways of being, lays new roads and connections so the old has passed away and
behold a new creation arises.

But this all takes faith and obedience. The faith to believe it is possible and the obedience to
start to build the new roads and see them form. But it must be from the heart, and it must be
real. And it must be thought through and worked out. And it costs everything we are, and
means leaving behind all attachments to this world.

But it is as clear as day many have never begun, and never truly faced the cross and the price
and love it represents. You know before the Lord your heart is locked off and you have never
let Him in. So today I call you to open the door and ask Him in to help you start to walk
this road. Thank you Jesus. Amen
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Whoever defines sin above Gods commands and decrees is just a condemner and follower of
the accuser of God's people. Listen to Paul and Peter who know we are a Holy People, not
as the unbelievers would claim who do not understand love or the law of the Spirit.

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4:7

Just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15-16

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Ephesians 5:1-5

Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Tim 2:22

8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time
2 Timothy 1:8-9

It is no small thing to accuse people of sin, worthy of judgement at the great White Throne,
while they cannot specify what it is or how His people can walk without being in sin.

It is extremely unwise to accuse people of sin which is a lie and not in scripture and claim
they are speaking from God and His word. What God has made clean, who are you to declare
unclean.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,327
6,696
113
Sin is the enemy of the people of God, sin as defined by the Lord.
Any dispensation that allies Gods people as evil doers is heresy.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
Ephesians 5:3

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
2 thessalonians 1:8-10

We are made Holy through Christ, and in this behaviour we are called to stay.
one last time- the greek word for sin is hamartia.

the basic meaning-missing the mark, a fault and / or a failure, whatever is not of God.

also, a ethical failure in thought or feeling or deed or speech.

so, while to walk just as He walked is our goal, we would have to not ever do any of the above to truthfully ( if you care about truth) say that we do.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
How many people understand the following statement......and which letter is applicable...

People peddling the Holy Spirit does not indwell the beliver.

a. People peddling the Holy Spirit
b. People peddling that God's Spirit does not indwell the believer

Exactly...B....NOT A.....yet I was accused of A.....there is no honesty in many that name Christ.....!!!!
Sometimes people just can not understand what your saying because of what they have been taught.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,586
9,104
113
I think it's time we start a pool predicting post #100,000. You have to say the day and the start of the hour it will happen.

I'll say tax day April 15th midnight! So 12:00 am to 1:00 am.

Closest gets 10 free posts to kick off the next 100,000.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
one last time- the greek word for sin is hamartia.
the basic meaning-missing the mark, a fault and / or a failure, whatever is not of God.
also, a ethical failure in thought or feeling or deed or speech.
so, while to walk just as He walked is our goal, we would have to not ever do any of the above to truthfully ( if you care about truth) say that we do.
Let us look at the above proposal.
Greek - sin - is a platonic and well worked out concept within Greek philosophy which has its own
meaning outside Jewish and Christian thought. So it is simply wrong to say because a greek word
is used its cultural meaning is that of the apostles.

Hebrew - iniquities - comes from the Lord and His perspective and His approach to evil
This is a better foundation upon which to understand sin.

Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. Prov 16:6

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

◄ 5771. avon ► - Hebrew
‘ă·wōn - iniquity(sin) - Proverbs 16:6
fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment of iniquity, sin
Or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 51:7) {aw-vone'}; from avah; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil -- fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.

STRONGS NT 266: ἁμαρτία - Greek
hamartiōn - sins 1 John 2:2
ἁμαρτία, (ας, ἡ (from 2 aorist ἁμαρτεῖν, as ἀποτυχία from ἀποτύχειν), a failing to hit the mark (see ἁμαρτάνω. In Greek writings (from Aeschylus and Thucydides down). 1st, an error of the understanding (cf. Ackermann, Das Christl. im Plato, p. 59 Anm. 3 (English translation (S. R. Asbury, 1861), p. 57 n. 99)). 2nd, a bad action, evil deed. In the N. T. always in an ethical sense, and
1. equivalent to τό ἁμαρτάνειν a sinning, whether it occurs by omission or commission, in thought and feeling or in speech and action
2. that which is done wrong, committed or resultant sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act (ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστιν ἡ ἀνομία, 1 John 3:4);
a. generally: James 1:15; John 8:46 (where ἁμαρτία must be taken to mean neither error, nor craft by which Jesus is corrupting the people, but sin viewed generally, as is well shown by Lücke at the passage and Ullmann in the Studien und Kritiken for 1842, p. 667ff (cf. his Sündlosigkeit Jesu, p. 66ff (English translation of the 7th edition, p. 71f)); the thought is, 'If anyone convicts me of sin, then you may lawfully question the truth and divinity of my doctrine, for sin hinders the perception of truth');

There is a big divide between greek thought on sin and biblical definition of sin.
It is interesting to see how many agree with greek ideas rather than biblical ideas.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Woaaah .....Huston we have another problem:eek:


Greek - sin - is a platonic and well worked out concept within Greek philosophy which has its own meaning outside Jewish and Christian thought. So it is simply wrong to say because a greek word
is used its cultural meaning is that of the apostles.

There is a big divide between greek thought on sin and biblical definition of sin.
It is interesting to see how many agree with greek ideas rather than biblical ideas.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Woaaah .....Huston we have another problem:eek:
Let us look at the above proposal.
Greek - sin - is a platonic and well worked out concept within Greek philosophy which has its own
meaning outside Jewish and Christian thought. So it is simply wrong to say because a greek word
is used its cultural meaning is that of the apostles.

Hebrew - iniquities - comes from the Lord and His perspective and His approach to evil
This is a better foundation upon which to understand sin.

Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. Prov 16:6

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

◄ 5771. avon ► - Hebrew
‘ă·wōn - iniquity(sin) - Proverbs 16:6
fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment of iniquity, sin
Or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 51:7) {aw-vone'}; from avah; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil -- fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.

STRONGS NT 266: ἁμαρτία - Greek
hamartiōn - sins 1 John 2:2
ἁμαρτία, (ας, ἡ (from 2 aorist ἁμαρτεῖν, as ἀποτυχία from ἀποτύχειν), a failing to hit the mark (see ἁμαρτάνω. In Greek writings (from Aeschylus and Thucydides down). 1st, an error of the understanding (cf. Ackermann, Das Christl. im Plato, p. 59 Anm. 3 (English translation (S. R. Asbury, 1861), p. 57 n. 99)). 2nd, a bad action, evil deed. In the N. T. always in an ethical sense, and
1. equivalent to τό ἁμαρτάνειν a sinning, whether it occurs by omission or commission, in thought and feeling or in speech and action
2. that which is done wrong, committed or resultant sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act (ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστιν ἡ ἀνομία, 1 John 3:4);
a. generally: James 1:15; John 8:46 (where ἁμαρτία must be taken to mean neither error, nor craft by which Jesus is corrupting the people, but sin viewed generally, as is well shown by Lücke at the passage and Ullmann in the Studien und Kritiken for 1842, p. 667ff (cf. his Sündlosigkeit Jesu, p. 66ff (English translation of the 7th edition, p. 71f)); the thought is, 'If anyone convicts me of sin, then you may lawfully question the truth and divinity of my doctrine, for sin hinders the perception of truth');

There is a big divide between greek thought on sin and biblical definition of sin.
It is interesting to see how many agree with greek ideas rather than biblical ideas.
If one cannot understand philosophy associated with the Greeks is not scriptural ideas one has
not understood God the creator.

How do you define good in terms of wiping out a whole city or town as judgement of God?
Unless you accept Gods judgement is final, you cannot arrive at justice by itself because only
the impartial judge of all is the ultimate reference point.

The problem with Greek thought is they are trying to define certainty over things that are
subjective to mankind. Not surprisingly it is why the apostles warned against these philosophies.
The most abstract ones hold that having passion or a physical body is in itself evil, because
there is no choice about its desires etc. Not surprisingly those who agree with this proposition
hold that Jesus was just being sarcastic talking about the law and the highest standard of God.

And if you hold to these principles of course righteousness is impossible.
But then none in scripture could be called righteous, which both Abraham, Noah, Job etc are
all called righteous people, and this righteousness is linked to their lifestyle as well as their
faith.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Woaaah .....Huston we have another problem :eek:
Woaaah____Huston, problem solved; Worldly Wisdom vs, Godly Wisdom;" "FollowingpeterJensSteps", he uses Worldly Wisdom vs. Godly Wisdom, right?

2Peter1:20,21
20)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. 21) For no prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
260
63
Once Saved Always Saved? by Shawn Mann I repeat what God has shown me in scripture: that OSAS is proven false by verses such as John 15:2. Even though I teach against OSAS i have NEVER believed that we can "go back and forth" in and out of salvation. Salvation is IN Christ. Jesus stated clearly that those in Him can be removed for being unfruitful, but I have seen no biblical evidence that one who is removed can ever be grafted in again. Romans 11 could be used to make that case "He is able to graft them in again", but the context is about Jews who never had faith in Christ to begin with. They were branches of the Olive Tree (Israel) and were removed for lack of faith in Christ. Now all who are in true Spiritual Israel are those of Faith (in Christ). Romans 11:22 states that we who have been grafted in by faith can also be removed for not enduring. I prefer John 15:2, Gal 5:4, Romans 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20, and Hebrews 10:26-29 over Hebrews 6, but Hebrews 6 still does prove that salvation can be lost. See here: “4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once *been enlightened* ((*Believers* are enlightened by the Spirit. 2 Cor 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)) , who have *tasted* ((same Greek word (Strongs 1089) used here: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should *taste death* for every man.)) the heavenly gift, and have *shared in the Holy Spirit**,((The Holy Spirit is a seal upon true believers. Has anyone outside of Christ "shared in the Holy Spirit"?)) 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away ((If they were never saved, what exactly did they "fall away" from? If you were never on the true ground of salvation, you can't fall away from it. You can't fall from something that you've never reached)), to restore (("restore" means they were truly there)) them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again ((His crucifiction was effectual for them, that's why it says "again")) the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.)) Fit's in perfectly with John 15:2-6 2 Every branch **in me* ((IN CHRIST, only the truely saved are in Christ)) that does not bear fruit he *takes away* (("takes away" from what? From being IN CHRIST)), and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide ((remain)) in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide ((remain)) in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. ((Just like Hebrews 6:8))
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Do you find Egyptian philosophy enlightening as well?

If one cannot understand philosophy associated with the Greeks is not scriptural ideas one has
not understood God the creator.

How do you define good in terms of wiping out a whole city or town as judgement of God?
Unless you accept Gods judgement is final, you cannot arrive at justice by itself because only
the impartial judge of all is the ultimate reference point.

The problem with Greek thought is they are trying to define certainty over things that are
subjective to mankind. Not surprisingly it is why the apostles warned against these philosophies.
The most abstract ones hold that having passion or a physical body is in itself evil, because
there is no choice about its desires etc. Not surprisingly those who agree with this proposition
hold that Jesus was just being sarcastic talking about the law and the highest standard of God.

And if you hold to these principles of course righteousness is impossible.
But then none in scripture could be called righteous, which both Abraham, Noah, Job etc are
all called righteous people, and this righteousness is linked to their lifestyle as well as their
faith.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
This hurts my eyes :(

Once Saved Always Saved? by Shawn Mann I repeat what God has shown me in scripture: that OSAS is proven false by verses such as John 15:2. Even though I teach against OSAS i have NEVER believed that we can "go back and forth" in and out of salvation. Salvation is IN Christ. Jesus stated clearly that those in Him can be removed for being unfruitful, but I have seen no biblical evidence that one who is removed can ever be grafted in again. Romans 11 could be used to make that case "He is able to graft them in again", but the context is about Jews who never had faith in Christ to begin with. They were branches of the Olive Tree (Israel) and were removed for lack of faith in Christ. Now all who are in true Spiritual Israel are those of Faith (in Christ). Romans 11:22 states that we who have been grafted in by faith can also be removed for not enduring. I prefer John 15:2, Gal 5:4, Romans 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20, and Hebrews 10:26-29 over Hebrews 6, but Hebrews 6 still does prove that salvation can be lost. See here: “4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once *been enlightened* ((*Believers* are enlightened by the Spirit. 2 Cor 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.)) , who have *tasted* ((same Greek word (Strongs 1089) used here: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should *taste death* for every man.)) the heavenly gift, and have *shared in the Holy Spirit**,((The Holy Spirit is a seal upon true believers. Has anyone outside of Christ "shared in the Holy Spirit"?)) 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away ((If they were never saved, what exactly did they "fall away" from? If you were never on the true ground of salvation, you can't fall away from it. You can't fall from something that you've never reached)), to restore (("restore" means they were truly there)) them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again ((His crucifiction was effectual for them, that's why it says "again")) the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.)) Fit's in perfectly with John 15:2-6 2 Every branch **in me* ((IN CHRIST, only the truely saved are in Christ)) that does not bear fruit he *takes away* (("takes away" from what? From being IN CHRIST)), and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide ((remain)) in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide ((remain)) in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. ((Just like Hebrews 6:8))