O.T. Circumcision a foreshadow of N.T. Water Baptism

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Wansvic

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#121
mailmandan said:
Your argument in regards to Acts 2:38 is not in harmony with (Luke 24:47; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18) or numerous other passages of scripture that make it clear we are saved when we believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 1:16; 13:39; Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

It sounds to me like perhaps you are having a difficult time seeing anything beyond your church indoctrination. :unsure:
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I think the answer is to rightly divide the Word.
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15

I appreciated the conversation. We just see scripture differently.
May God Bless-Have a great day.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#122
#122
Wansvic said:
The bible simply does not bear out your opinion.
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Well yeah it does. One thing that might help you is col 2. Which speaks of the fulfilment of the symbols. You see, all the earthly symbols of things done by Man (the circumcision, the sacrifice of bulls and goats, the baptism) are symbols of what actually is performed by God himself.

But hey, if you think some MAN (a sinner) can wash your sins away, by cutting your foreskin or immersing you in water, thats up to you. My I will trust God to do those things, Because I know only he can in a way which will make me white as snow.

God's Word lays out His plan. We are to obey God's plan through belief in Jesus our Savior, repentance, water and Holy Ghost baptism. After the foundation is laid we are to wholeheartedly pursue God's ways.

Jesus Himself said:
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matt 12:50

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matt 7:21) Jesus goes on to express the importance of laying a proper foundation. (Matt 7:24-27)
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Then you preach a gospel of works. Your trying to earn your salvation. And not relying or trusting in the grace of God which saves us from eternal damnation.

And again, Good luck with that.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#123
#123
Wansvic said:
Circumcision was required in order to be in covenant with God in the OT.
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Yep. As far as the land covenant goes,

But it never saved anyone

Again, Did ninevah get circumcised, Did jonah demand it? And what about all th epoor women, are they lost wiht no hope?
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#124
#124
Wansvic said:
If true, Paul would not have asked the disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:2-6

Notice Paul also gave additional instruction to the disciples in this encounter. Paul said they had to submit to another water baptism because evidently John the Baptist water baptism was not sufficient. They were re-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and he laid hands upon them and they received the Holy Ghost baptism as well.
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How could they believe if they had only heard of John the baptists gospel. And Not the gospel of Christ?

Your treading on thin ice my friend.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#125
eternally-gratefull said:
Well yeah it does. One thing that might help you is col 2. Which speaks of the fulfilment of the symbols. You see, all the earthly symbols of things done by Man (the circumcision, the sacrifice of bulls and goats, the baptism) are symbols of what actually is performed by God himself.

But hey, if you think some MAN (a sinner) can wash your sins away, by cutting your foreskin or immersing you in water, thats up to you. My I will trust God to do those things, Because I know only he can in a way which will make me white as snow.


Then you preach a gospel of works. Your trying to earn your salvation. And not relying or trusting in the grace of God which saves us from eternal damnation.

And again, Good luck with that.
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I believe you are missing the point; it's all about obedience.

1 Sam 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#126
#126
Wansvic said:
I believe you are missing the point; it's all about obedience.

1 Sam 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
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I think your missing the point

You cannot be obedient enough to earn your salvation no matter what you do

All people of all times have been saved by grace through faith

The same faith which saves is the same faith which stirs people to good works.

The works are a RESULT of salvation, Not a MEANS of salvation,
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#127
eternally-gratefull said:
How could they believe if they had only heard of John the baptists gospel. And Not the gospel of Christ?

Your treading on thin ice my friend.
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Paul's remark in Acts chapter 19 indicates that receiving of the Holy Ghost and believing are separate from one another.

If the Holy Ghost was received upon believing Paul would not have asked the question:
"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Acts 19:2
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#128
eternally-gratefull said:
I think your missing the point

You cannot be obedient enough to earn your salvation no matter what you do

All people of all times have been saved by grace through faith

The same faith which saves is the same faith which stirs people to good works.

The works are a RESULT of salvation, Not a MEANS of salvation,
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God set forth conditions via Peter on the Day of Pentecost. All of the conditions are acted upon by individuals in Acts 8, Acts 10, and again by disciples in Acts 19.
Our responsibility is to act in obedience to the instructions given.
How God chooses to accomplish something is not my concern. I just follow the command and leave the rest up to God; for He is the one performing the spiritual work, not I.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#129
#129
Wansvic said:
Paul's remark in Acts chapter 19 indicates that receiving of the Holy Ghost and believing are separate from one another.

If the Holy Ghost was received upon believing Paul would not have asked the question:
"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Acts 19:2
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If they did not recieve the HS they were not saved

If they were not saved, They never had FAITH.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#130
#130
Wansvic said:
God set forth conditions via Peter on the Day of Pentecost. All of the conditions are acted upon by individuals in Acts 8, Acts 10, and again by disciples in Acts 19.
Our responsibility is to act in obedience to the instructions given.
How God chooses to accomplish something is not my concern. I just follow the command and leave the rest up to God; for He is the one performing the spiritual work, not I.
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Your responsibnility is to be like the tax collector. Get on your knees completely empty of yourself because you have become bancrupt (poor) in spirit. And call out on the name of the lord to be saved.

If your still trying to work, You have not yet become bancrupt. You still think you can save yourself. Hence you have not yet repented from dead works.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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eternally-gratefull said:
How could they believe if they had only heard of John the baptists gospel. And Not the gospel of Christ?

Your treading on thin ice my friend.
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I find it interesting that in Acts 19:2, Paul ran into some of John's disciples and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals they did not yet believe in Christ unto salvation. They had received the baptism of John, but did not seem to realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to faith in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10). Apostles were also present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church. The laying on of hands in Acts 8 and 19 in regards to receiving the Holy Spirit was the exception and not the rule.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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eternally-gratefull said:
If they did not recieve the HS they were not saved

If they were not saved, They never had FAITH.
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Again in scripture we see that the Samaritans received the Word and were water baptized but had not received the Holy Ghost:

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:" Acts 8:14-15
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#133
Wansvic said:
Again in scripture we see that the Samaritans received the Word and were water baptized but had not received the Holy Ghost:

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:" Acts 8:14-15
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Eph 1: 13- 14

Can you explaon to me this verse?

When do people get the HS?
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#134
mailmandan said:
I find it interesting that in Acts 19:2, Paul ran into some of John's disciples and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals they did not yet believe in Christ unto salvation. They had received the baptism of John, but did not seem to realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to faith in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10). Apostles were also present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church. The laying on of hands in Acts 8 and 19 in regards to receiving the Holy Spirit was the exception and not the rule.
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Paul made the distinction between belief and receiving the Holy Ghost in his initial comment to the disciples in Acts 19.
Again, we see receiving the Holy Ghost as separate from believing in Acts 8.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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eternally-gratefull said:
Eph 1: 13- 14

Can you explaon to me this verse?

When do people get the HS?
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Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

After hearing the gospel of Jesus death, burial, and resurrection, one believes and submits to the instructions given by Peter when those present asked what they must do to be saved.


"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:37-41
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#136
Wansvic said:
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

After hearing the gospel of Jesus death, burial, and resurrection, one believes and submits to the instructions given by Peter when those present asked what they must do to be saved.
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Lol..

Never mind dude,

For one, It says they believed the GOSPEL of their salvation, It does not say they submitted or did anything else so your adding to the word.

And number 2, It says AFTER they believed they were sealed by the spirit..

Here is when they received the spirit.

I chose to trust paul is right when he says when a person recieves the spirit. Not an event in the begining of a new covenant which was a sign to people this covenant came from God.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#137
Wansvic said:
Paul made the distinction between belief and receiving the Holy Ghost in his initial comment to the disciples in Acts 19. Again, we see receiving the Holy Ghost as separate from believing in Acts 8.
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The delaying of receiving the Holy Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them in Acts 8 and 19 was the exception, not the rule. Believers were saved prior to receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit prior to Jesus being glorified. In John 7:38-39, we read - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The same can be said of these Samaritan believers in this unique situation in Acts 8. Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid their hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17). Again, exception, not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; Ephesians 1:13). The Jews were hostile towards the Samaritans and the laying on of hands by the apostles would authenticate God's purpose and bring church unity.

They didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit when Jesus spoke these words in John 3:16 prior to Him being glorified, yet these believers were still saved. The Samaritans believed and were baptized (Acts 8:12), but did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them (Acts 8:17), but were still saved when they believed, which is in harmony with (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..).
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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eternally-gratefull said:
For one, It says they believed the GOSPEL of their salvation, It does not say they submitted or did anything else so your adding to the word.

And number 2, It says AFTER they believed they were sealed by the spirit..
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Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. *What happened to baptism?

In Acts 10:43, Peter clearly states that ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?

In Acts 10:47, we read - Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? Then AFTER they believed in Him and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they were water baptized (vs. 48)

In Acts 11:17, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Those who teach salvation by water baptism (for example: Romans Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites) simply hang their hats on their pet verses like Acts 2:38, then try to force the rest of scripture to "conform" to their biased interpretation of a particular pet verse, like Acts 2:38, instead properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. It's called flawed hermeneutics.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#139
#139
mailmandan said:
Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. *What happened to baptism?

In Acts 10:43, Peter clearly states that ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?

In Acts 10:47, we read - Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? Then AFTER they believed in Him and received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they were water baptized (vs. 48)

In Acts 11:17, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Those who teach salvation by water baptism (for example: Romans Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites) simply hang their hats on their pet verses like Acts 2:38, then try to force the rest of scripture to "conform" to their biased interpretation of a particular pet verse, like Acts 2:38, instead properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. It's called flawed hermeneutics.
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They are stuck on an english text that does not give the deeper meaning of the passage, if they would just look to the greek they would understand the flaw in their thinking.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

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#140
eternally-gratefull said:
Lol..

Never mind dude,

For one, It says they believed the GOSPEL of their salvation, It does not say they submitted or did anything else so your adding to the word.

And number 2, It says AFTER they believed they were sealed by the spirit..

Here is when they received the spirit.

I chose to trust paul is right when he says when a person recieves the spirit. Not an event in the begining of a new covenant which was a sign to people this covenant came from God.
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One has to believe something before they act upon it.
Paul is the one who stated Holy Spirit infilling is a separate experience from belief. (Acts 19)
 
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