Showing your faith by your works

[know1]

OTE] No think about what the Bible is saying, Im just agreeing with it stop trying to make out like im saying anything oposite to what you saying. Did i ever say what you are trying to twist my post into saying? NOPE!

YOU have faith and you act on it, otherwise your faith is DEAD. I am not saying you do works without any faith. If you can read what Jamees wrote and interpet it the right way, then stop accusing others of interpeting it the opposite, because I have not. I have never said giving to the poor is what James was talking about but he actually used it as a real example!

And if you are so selfish as to think theres no merit in that example, then it just goes to show your attitude towards others is rather off. Have you ever been poor hungry, naked? Jesus says those who say they arent in need of anything..are actually those who are blind, poor and naked. The laoedicans.

Hes going to spit those lukewarm out of his mouth. Yep, its disgusting.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post. I do not however, twist what anyone says. I write it as I understood it.
What I was seeing is what many here on CC believe interpret James as using.

No think about what the Bible is saying, Im just agreeing with it stop trying to make out like im saying anything oposite to what you saying. Did i ever say what you are trying to twist my post into saying? NOPE!

YOU have faith and you act on it, otherwise your faith is DEAD. I am not saying you do works without any faith. If you can read what Jamees wrote and interpet it the right way, then stop accusing others of interpeting it the opposite, because I have not. I have never said giving to the poor is what James was talking about but he actually used it as a real example!

And if you are so selfish as to think theres no merit in that example, then it just goes to show your attitude towards others is rather off. Have you ever been poor hungry, naked? Jesus says those who say they arent in need of anything..are actually those who are blind, poor and naked. The laoedicans.

Hes going to spit those lukewarm out of his mouth. Yep, its disgusting.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post. I do not, however, twist the scriptures or what People say, I write it as or how I perceive or see it.
Many don't understand what James is really talking about, I guess because they haven't walked in the power of His word, and/or certainly because they do not know what faith is or how it works.
If you don't know what God's going to do, then you don't have faith for what you are asking for or proclaiming.
If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for.
Just because the Spirit of God works in us to be a better person and to be more like Christ in attitude and personality, doesn't mean we have the "true faith" for other things in life.
It does however mean the person had enough of the so-called, true faith, for their salvation though.
Faith is like a sniper pointing his weapon at a target and firing. It is precise in its focus or scope, directed, and then sent.
If you believe the gospel for salvation, and act on that word, the word itself will save you, because you acted on you believed in your heart. It works the same way for healing.
But, if you don't believe the gospel for your healing, then you will not have faith to receive it.
And if you haven't heard about the gospel concerning healing for God's children, then again, you cannot have faith for it.
Those who believe in salvation have been taught the gospel of salvation, but they won't have faith for healing, and those who believe in healing, have been taught they are just that.
You don't have faith for EVERYTHING, JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE BORN AGAIN, or because you are a child of God.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

All works of the Believer most be birth and produced by the Holy Spirit. If they are not birth and produced by the Holy Spirit, it is dead works and rotten fruit.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Cor. 3:12-15

 

[Guojing]

There are people who say the Father only sees Jesus when He looks at believers.
This then creates some logical problems. The Father can never see growth, maturity, struggles,
development, because all He sees is perfect believers.

God the Father is a Spirit, he created us as a spirit being too. You must always remember that you are a spirit living in a body, you are not your body.

There are at least 2 examples I can see from the OT that illustrates this. I will just use one

When Adam and Eve first sin and they hid from God. The first question ever ask in the OT is God asking "Where are you?"

Do you think God knew where they were but purposely ask that to tease them? I believe God no longer see them in the spirit, because their spirit died the moment they ate the fruit.

Likewise, the moment you are saved, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Whatever sins you committed after you are saved, will no longer be able to taint your spirit. That is why they are called works of the flesh. God does not see sin in your spirit, even though there may be sin on your flesh. So, as far as God is concerned, you are always righteous.

And let me stress again, that revelation will not make anyone will go and say, "Whopee, I can now sin all I want since God does not see my sin".

 

[Blik]

The idea that because we are not saved by our works, so if God won't save me through my works I just won't work is not in scripture, it is even poor reasoning, yet it is posted here over and over.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

God the Father is a Spirit, he created us as a spirit being too. You must always remember that you are a spirit living in a body, you are not your body.
There are at least 2 examples I can see from the OT that illustrates this. I will just use one
When Adam and Eve first sin and they hid from God. The first question ever ask in the OT is God asking "Where are you?"
Do you think God knew where they were but purposely ask that to tease them? I believe God no longer see them in the spirit, because their spirit died the moment they ate the fruit.
Likewise, the moment you are saved, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Whatever sins you committed after you are saved, will no longer be able to taint your spirit. That is why they are called works of the flesh. God does not see sin in your spirit, even though there may be sin on your flesh. So, as far as God is concerned, you are always righteous.
And let me stress again, that revelation will not make anyone will go and say, "Whopee, I can now sin all I want since God does not see my sin".

I am not a spirit being. I am a mortal into which God has breathed life.
And without my body I am dead.

I did a study on spirit, soul and body.
In summary the spirit is ones emotions and reactions to life and what is going on around us.
The soul is our essence, the root of who we are, and what we are.
The body is our physical presence which is what we are in this world.

1 Thess 5:23
spirit - pneuma - the Spirit of God
Jesus released his Spirit
spirit of adoption as sons, the spirit of the man 1 cor 2:11
that his spirit may be saved 1 cor 5:5
tongue my spirit prays 1 cor 14:14
refreshed my spirit and yours 1 cor 16:18
a different spirit which 2 cor 11:4
to you a spirit of wisdom Eph 1:17
a steadfast spirit within Psalm 51:10
a new spirit within Ezek 11:19

soul - psyche
with one mind striving together Phil 1:27
every person is to be in subjection Rom 13:1
just as your soul prospers 3 John 1:2
about your life what Matt 6:25
My soul exalts Luke 1:46
every living soul died in rev 16:3

Interesting question.
Greek - spirit - pneuma - the Holy Spirit, a demon, our spirit, a spirit of wisdom
soul - psyche - our mind, our life, who we are

Hebrew - spirit - wə·rū·aḥ -
a steadfast spirit within Psalm 51:10
a new spirit within Ezek 11:19

So our spirit seems to be who we are emotionally, our balance in life, our expression
of how we are, how we interact, our direction.

Our soul is who we are, our essence, our life.

So the new spirit we have when we are born again is the result of healing of our souls
and emotions or attitudes, that gives us a new way of interacting or spirit.

This makes sense in language terms.
Our spirits in Christ do grow as we become like Him and perfect, when ever that might be.

 

[Guojing]

I am not a spirit being. I am a mortal into which God has breathed life.
And without my body I am dead.

I did a study on spirit, soul and body.
In summary the spirit is ones emotions and reactions to life and what is going on around us.
The soul is our essence, the root of who we are, and what we are.
The body is our physical presence which is what we are in this world.

1 Thess 5:23
spirit - pneuma - the Spirit of God
Jesus released his Spirit, unclean spirit
spirit of adoption as sons, the spirit of the man 1 cor 2:11
that his spirit may be saved 1 cor 5:5
tongue my spirit prays 1 cor 14:14
refreshed my spirit and yours 1 cor 16:18
a different spirit which 2 cor 11:4
to you a spirit of wisdom Eph 1:17
a steadfast spirit within Psalm 51:10
a new spirit within Ezek 11:19

soul - psyche
with one mind striving together Phil 1:27
every person is to be in subjection Rom 13:1
just as your soul prospers 3 John 1:2
about your life what Matt 6:25
My soul exalts Luke 1:46
every living soul died in rev 16:3

Interesting question.
Greek - spirit - pneuma - the Holy Spirit, a demon, our spirit, a spirit of wisdom
soul - psyche - our mind, our life, who we are

Hebrew - spirit - wə·rū·aḥ -
a steadfast spirit within Psalm 51:10
a new spirit within Ezek 11:19

So our spirit seems to be who we are emotionally, our balance in life, our expression
of how we are, how we interact, our direction.

Our soul is who we are, our essence, our life.

So the new spirit we have when we are born again is the result of healing of our souls
and emotions or attitudes, that gives us a new way of interacting or spirit.

This makes sense in language terms.
Our spirits in Christ do grow as we become like Him and perfect, when ever that might be.

But you do agree that
you are a spirit,
you possess a soul, and
you live in a body?

We are a Trinity, just like our creator God.

 

[Chester]

Make no mistake if one teaches a losable salvation or one that is maintained by works....by default it is a works based salvation....there is a difference....JESUS BY FAITH WITH ANY EMBELLISHMENT other than faith is a works based salvation, James used ro teach works required is a works basef salvation....the following is clear...

One who DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES <--HIS FAITH IS CRWDITIED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

Exactly why Paul.concluded that a MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW!!

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

If you maintain that anyone who "teaches a losable salvation . . . by default it is a works based salvation" then you have no right to bellyache or complain if someone tells you that if anyone "teaches that salvation cannot be lost . . . by default they believe that they can sin like the devil and it doesn't matter."

 

[Chester]

The idea that because we are not saved by our works, so if God won't save me through my works I just won't work is not in scripture, it is even poor reasoning, yet it is posted here over and over.

Can you give me an example of where this is clearly posted?

 

[PennEd]

If you maintain that anyone who "teaches a losable salvation . . . by default it is a works based salvation" then you have no right to bellyache or complain if someone tells you that if anyone "teaches that salvation cannot be lost . . . by default they believe that they can sin like the devil and it doesn't matter."

Hey Chester. I'm sorry buddy but I don't think these 2 statements are synonymous.

The 1st statement is to recognize that Salvation is all of Jesus.

The second denies that a person has been born again. And because the person has been born again, he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It is HIM that transforms us into the likeness of Jesus.

So He is NOT going to permit a Child of God to "sin like the devil".

 

[Jimbone]

Can you give some works that are evidence of salvation?

Also, what about the many who get saved but have zero discipleship, zero biblical knowledge, zero influence in their lives for the Lord, but they got saved upon hearing about Jesus Christ? Are they really going to live out good works for the Lord? I'm not giving Christians a pass on sin, but we all continue to sin after salvation.

I'm sorry man, but if you don't understand what I'm saying, if you don't understand that being reborn makes you an ALL NEW person, now even able to do anything good as opposed to before when we were unable to do ANYTHING AT ALL good, now reborn of the Spirit, and only by His power, now proclaiming His glory over the everything done in His name, if you just have no clue what I'm talking about then I'm afraid you may want to reevaluate exactly what you think a Christian is, and if you even are one. I know this sounds harsh like I'm "judging" you, but I was someone that thought I was a Christian for many years, yet I did not know Him. I was told "repeat this prayer", then declared saved when I wasn't. Even dunked under water for good measure, yet was still spiritually dead. No mention of a REAL change inside us, no mention of our dead spirits being brought to life and reconciled to His opening our eyes to the Truth. Nope only that "Christians will always sin", "we all sin", basically that a Christian can be saved and do NOTHING for God, just enough to keep me in darkness. Much like what you seem to be saying now, and still thinking of it 1000000% fleshly, which should be a huge red flag for you.

As for your "hypothetical" question about "the many who get saved but have zero discipleship, zero biblical knowledge, zero influence in their lives for the Lord", " Are they really going to live out good works for the Lord?" Yes they are, they absolutely have to, there lives will be a testament to His power, and they will spread it by His power because that's the truth and He is amazing. . Being reborn changes you, it changes the way you see things, the way you act, the way you treat people. All these things are "works" and evidence that you've been saved, and YES without a doubt ANYONE that is reborn will do works, this change is evidence of their salvation. Period. This is not a hard concept, but the main problem here seems to be what you think these "works" are. Please define "works" for me and tell me why you see them as so bad? Thank you, and I look forward to your answer.

 

[John146]

and if you even are one

Why did you go there? I'm speaking biblically, works have zero to do with getting saved and zero to do with justification of salvation. This is a legit question. There are people who have no, none, spiritual influence in their lives. Will they go onto good works and living for the Lord with no knowledge, influence or discipleship to help them?

To go onto good works and living for the Lord one needs to renew their minds through God's word daily. Many Christians do not do this. They may live the typical Christian life, going to church, being a good person, etc...but this is not the same as the good works prepared by God that we should walk in them.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature...spiritually, believers are in Christ but notice the flesh is not in Christ yet. The battle is of the flesh. Many Christians seek after the flesh and worldly things rather than God's word and spiritual things. It does not come automatically without effort on our part. No effort = no living after the spirit. See Romans 8:1-2.

 

[Jimbone]

You articulate your point well, and you are right: that is - that OSAS people are often erroneously accused of teaching that "we can live like the devil because we believe in eternal security". Got it -- That is sad - and I understand that makes you mad!

In the same way - some of here who do not believe in OSAS get quite sick and tired of being accused that we teach salvation by works, when we never say anything like that, and do not believe that at all.

This I agree with SO much. I truly believe this is the biggest disconnect in this debate, both sides create a straw man then talk past each other never coming together to try to truly understand what the other really believes. I have been in this debate quite a few times myself and am called the same thing, a teacher of works salvation, they never seem to quite understand the difference between getting saved, and what happens after. They always apply what I say backwards to salvation when what I'm talking about is what happens "as a result of" salvation. So we just end up talking past each other mostly, yet these same people will speak of a "change" after we are saved not realizing it's that "change" I'm calling evidence of salvation.

Can one change without being saved? Yes. At least to a degree. Can one be truly reborn of the Spirit, by the power of the God I serve in Jesus name, and not be changed? This is where I say NO, and stand firmly behind that. You can not be reborn and stay the same. Now after this they start in the flesh asking, "well then how many works?", "what about if Jimbob Joe in Timbuktu did 4 works standing on his head the 4th Sunday of the month, does that count if he never heard of Jesus?", and all kinds of "how much", "in what amount of time", and "what gets done", just ALL the kinds of religious, fleshly, of the law mindset questions completely missing what I'm trying to say and the whole point of what Jesus came to free us of. When we are fallen we act a certain way, then when we are reborn we are changed, a fact most professing Christians will agree with (thank goodness right?), but what some don't seem to understand is that the "change", the change is what causes the "works", if you changed you are working like it or not. If you're nicer to your brother. Work, if you are more patient in line. Work. If you've been able to put porn down, now anything you do in the time you used to use for porn. Work. We do not work FOR salvation, we work BECAUSE OF it, and most of all because we desire to because He has changed our hearts. In NO WAY chains, and in NO WAY imposed. I don't know how some can be so blind to these concepts to the point they have to make a straw man case every time.

 

[Jimbone]

Why did you go there? I'm speaking biblically, works have zero to do with getting saved and zero to do with justification of salvation. This is a legit question. There are people who have no, none, spiritual influence in their lives. Will they go onto good works and living for the Lord with no knowledge, influence or discipleship to help them?

To go onto good works and living for the Lord one needs to renew their minds through God's word daily. Many Christians do not do this. They may live the typical Christian life, going to church, being a good person, etc...but this is not the same as the good works prepared by God that we should walk in them.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature...spiritually, believers are in Christ but notice the flesh is not in Christ yet. The battle is of the flesh. Many Christians seek after the flesh and worldly things rather than God's word and spiritual things. It does not come automatically without effort on our part. No effort = no living after the spirit. See Romans 8:1-2.

I knew you'd just get offended and miss what I was saying. Please show me where I said works save. I didn't, so suggesting I did is a lie. You are making that straw man I was talking about and running from the real meat. And once you start talking about
"To go onto good works and living for the Lord one needs to renew their minds through God's word daily. Many Christians do not do this. (how do you know what "many Christians do?) They may live the typical Christian life, going to church, being a good person, etc...but this is not the same as the good works prepared by God that we should walk in them." (Who are you to proclaim things like this? Again how do you know?)

You lose me, how does this even tie into what I was talking about? Did you even read my comment at all, because you are so far wrong with everything you are saying and implying about what I said, it seems to be directed to a different conversation all together. ALL I am saying, ALL I am proclaiming here is that you cannot be born again and stay the same. Any change in you because the power of God changed you is a work for Him. You cannot be reborn and stay the same. Address this, my point. Are you saying you can be born again in the Spirit and not change? "?????"

 

[Jimbone]

This I agree with SO much. I truly believe this is the biggest disconnect in this debate, both sides create a straw man then talk past each other never coming together to try to truly understand what the other really believes. I have been in this debate quite a few times myself and am called the same thing, a teacher of works salvation, they never seem to quite understand the difference between getting saved, and what happens after. They always apply what I say backwards to salvation when what I'm talking about is what happens "as a result of" salvation. So we just end up talking past each other mostly, yet these same people will speak of a "change" after we are saved not realizing it's that "change" I'm calling evidence of salvation.

Can one change without being saved? Yes. At least to a degree. Can one be truly reborn of the Spirit, by the power of the God I serve in Jesus name, and not be changed? This is where I say NO, and stand firmly behind that. You can not be reborn and stay the same. Now after this they start in the flesh asking, "well then how many works?", "what about if Jimbob Joe in Timbuktu did 4 works standing on his head the 4th Sunday of the month, does that count if he never heard of Jesus?", and all kinds of "how much", "in what amount of time", and "what gets done", just ALL the kinds of religious, fleshly, of the law mindset questions completely missing what I'm trying to say and the whole point of what Jesus came to free us of. When we are fallen we act a certain way, then when we are reborn we are changed, a fact most professing Christians will agree with (thank goodness right?), but what some don't seem to understand is that the "change", the change is what causes the "works", if you changed you are working like it or not. If you're nicer to your brother. Work, if you are more patient in line. Work. If you've been able to put porn down, now anything you do in the time you used to use for porn. Work. We do not work FOR salvation, we work BECAUSE OF it, and most of all because we desire to because He has changed our hearts. In NO WAY chains, and in NO WAY imposed. I don't know how some can be so blind to these concepts to the point they have to make a straw man case every time.

In this comment I said "if you changed you are working like it or not.", and upon a reread I wanted to clear this up a little bit. I didn't mean it like the person will be working whether or not they like it. I meant it like the saved person will do "works". Whether or not "we" like it that's the truth. It looked like I meant it in a way we are enslaved to do works even if we didn't like it, but NO. That is so opposite of the power of God, no we now WANT to serve Him by our new nature. At least that's been my experience so far, and serving my Lord is a joy unlike any other, never chains, never a choir. It's an unbelievably undeserved honor to serve my King. Who really disagrees with this?

 

[John146]

I knew you'd just get offended and miss what I was saying. Please show me where I said works save. I didn't, so suggesting I did is a lie. You are making that straw man I was talking about and running from the real meat. And once you start talking about
"To go onto good works and living for the Lord one needs to renew their minds through God's word daily. Many Christians do not do this. (how do you know what "many Christians do?) They may live the typical Christian life, going to church, being a good person, etc...but this is not the same as the good works prepared by God that we should walk in them." (Who are you to proclaim things like this? Again how do you know?)

You lose me, how does this even tie into what I was talking about? Did you even read my comment at all, because you are so far wrong with everything you are saying and implying about what I said, it seems to be directed to a different conversation all together. ALL I am saying, ALL I am proclaiming here is that you cannot be born again and stay the same. Any change in you because the power of God changed you is a work for Him. You cannot be reborn and stay the same. Address this, my point. Are you saying you can be born again in the Spirit and not change? "?????"

1 Corinthians 3 addresses the believer who did no labor for the Lord yet is saved eternally. Laboring for the Lord after salvation is for rewards and inheritance. Some will lose all their rewards because they did not labor here on earth for the Lord.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

See also 2 Cor. 5 for same context...the Judgment Seat of Christ.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Jimbone]

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post. I do not however, twist what anyone says. I write it as I understood it.
What I was seeing is what many here on CC believe interpret James as using.


Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post. I do not, however, twist the scriptures or what People say, I write it as or how I perceive or see it.
Many don't understand what James is really talking about, I guess because they haven't walked in the power of His word, and/or certainly because they do not know what faith is or how it works.
If you don't know what God's going to do, then you don't have faith for what you are asking for or proclaiming.
If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for.
Just because the Spirit of God works in us to be a better person and to be more like Christ in attitude and personality, doesn't mean we have the "true faith" for other things in life.
It does however mean the person had enough of the so-called, true faith, for their salvation though.
Faith is like a sniper pointing his weapon at a target and firing. It is precise in its focus or scope, directed, and then sent.
If you believe the gospel for salvation, and act on that word, the word itself will save you, because you acted on you believed in your heart. It works the same way for healing.
But, if you don't believe the gospel for your healing, then you will not have faith to receive it.
And if you haven't heard about the gospel concerning healing for God's children, then again, you cannot have faith for it.
Those who believe in salvation have been taught the gospel of salvation, but they won't have faith for healing, and those who believe in healing, have been taught they are just that.
You don't have faith for EVERYTHING, JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE BORN AGAIN, or because you are a child of God.

I had to disagree with your comment for this part alone, "If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for",
this is nonsense brother, it really is. Are you saying that our Lord Jesus didn't have faith in His example to us in Mat. 26:38-39?

38 Then He said to them, “My soul is consumed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with Me.” 39 Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.”

I want to be in my Fathers will, His will be done, not mine. I am ONLY here for His glory, not the other way around. I think the rest of what you said was pretty sound, but this "don't pray His will, it shows you don't have faith in what you're praying for" is dangerous falsehood. I will pray "if it be Your will", because I trust God to know whats better for me more than I trust myself. That thinking is too "man centered", when we need to be God centered.

 

[Jimbone]

1 Corinthians 3 addresses the believer who did no labor for the Lord yet is saved eternally. Laboring for the Lord after salvation is for rewards and inheritance. Some will lose all their rewards because they did not labor here on earth for the Lord.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

See also 2 Cor. 5 for same context...the Judgment Seat of Christ.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Why won't you answer my questions? Even though you ignore my strait up questions, I will still answer yours. Even the man whos works were burnt up was working was he not?
Now PLEASE get down to business and stop ignoring the issue.
When we are reborn do we change?
Are you really arguing that someone reborn by the grace and power of God will do NOTHING for Him ever? Is that what you're saying? If you do not answer these I can no longer take you serious because you're not dealing with reality, you are just arguing blindly in your own bubble ignoring everything else out of pride. Please, please, please, for the love of brotherhood answer for once my 2 questions here. Why do you avoid them like the plague to go down another rabbit trail.
When we are reborn do we change?
Are you really arguing that someone reborn by the grace and power of God will do NOTHING for Him ever?

 

[Chester]

This I agree with SO much. I truly believe this is the biggest disconnect in this debate, both sides create a straw man then talk past each other never coming together to try to truly understand what the other really believes. I have been in this debate quite a few times myself and am called the same thing, a teacher of works salvation, they never seem to quite understand the difference between getting saved, and what happens after. They always apply what I say backwards to salvation when what I'm talking about is what happens "as a result of" salvation. So we just end up talking past each other mostly, yet these same people will speak of a "change" after we are saved not realizing it's that "change" I'm calling evidence of salvation.

Can one change without being saved? Yes. At least to a degree. Can one be truly reborn of the Spirit, by the power of the God I serve in Jesus name, and not be changed? This is where I say NO, and stand firmly behind that. You can not be reborn and stay the same. Now after this they start in the flesh asking, "well then how many works?", "what about if Jimbob Joe in Timbuktu did 4 works standing on his head the 4th Sunday of the month, does that count if he never heard of Jesus?", and all kinds of "how much", "in what amount of time", and "what gets done", just ALL the kinds of religious, fleshly, of the law mindset questions completely missing what I'm trying to say and the whole point of what Jesus came to free us of. When we are fallen we act a certain way, then when we are reborn we are changed, a fact most professing Christians will agree with (thank goodness right?), but what some don't seem to understand is that the "change", the change is what causes the "works", if you changed you are working like it or not. If you're nicer to your brother. Work, if you are more patient in line. Work. If you've been able to put porn down, now anything you do in the time you used to use for porn. Work. We do not work FOR salvation, we work BECAUSE OF it, and most of all because we desire to because He has changed our hearts. In NO WAY chains, and in NO WAY imposed. I don't know how some can be so blind to these concepts to the point they have to make a straw man case every time.

Well articulated and well-spoken . . . . . . . . . I agree!

"but if you do not believe in OSAS . . . well then . . . .. you believe works save you! " Oh, oh, oh, what a fallacy! What a lie! It makes me so mad I could fume and sweat and wrestle a grizzly bear to the ground with my bear (no pun intended!) hands!

I came to this forum over two years ago searching, questioning, and trying to figure out what the Bible actually says about this issue. Two things have cemented my belief that initial salvation is by grace through faith and that we stay saved by grace through faith. (Thus I do not believe in OSAS - which says we stay saved because of a past transaction at our justification).

The two things that have convinced me are:
(1) a simple straightforward approach to Scriptural interpretation
(2) the arrogant, accusing, and sometimes foul-mouthed attitude of many (though I say not all) who say they believe in OSAS
If I went by what this group told me (that is - they say, "you are not saved"), I would have lost and gained my salvation many times in the last several years!

 

[John146]

Why won't you answer my questions? Even though you ignore my strait up questions, I will still answer yours. Even the man whos works were burnt up was working was he not?
Now PLEASE get down to business and stop ignoring the issue.
When we are reborn do we change?
Are you really arguing that someone reborn by the grace and power of God will do NOTHING for Him ever? Is that what you're saying? If you do not answer these I can no longer take you serious because you're not dealing with reality, you are just arguing blindly in your own bubble ignoring everything else out of pride. Please, please, please, for the love of brotherhood answer for once my 2 questions here. Why do you avoid them like the plague to go down another rabbit trail.
When we are reborn do we change?
Are you really arguing that someone reborn by the grace and power of God will do NOTHING for Him ever?

All things about me spiritually, changes. Upon salvation I am a child of God, reborn, washed, justified and sanctified....but, my flesh is not. Do my actions change? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the outside influences I'm surrounded with in my life. If I were an alcoholic, I'd still be an alcoholic after my conversion.

Do I automatically go onto doing labor pleasing unto the Lord? Not necessarily. A new believer needs discipleship in the word and proper spiritual influences to grow and mature to bear fruit.

 

[John146]

Even the man whos works were burnt up was working was he not?

Yes, they had works, just not works pleasing to the Lord.