A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[eternally-gratefull]

Well that was a very mixed batch of truths and misunderstandings, and I don't know even where or how to start to untangle that for you.

Prideful much?

But that doesn't mean I ain't going to try

What you say about the unpardonable sin encompassing accepting/rejecting Christ is true. I'm wit ya on that.

But limiting that passage to only that interpretation is tunnel vision, I believe.

Yes the religious people of that day, in saying Jesus did things by the power of satan, was very much an overall act of rejecting Him.

But I don't think Jesus' response was 'hey be careful you might do something wrong', no, Jesus said 'oops look at what you've gone and done now'. The blasphemes were not future, it happened right then and there.

Which is why, when someone says I pray in the Spirit by a demon, their words are already spoken. Mark 3 et al is not a warning, it's a judgment.

Which is again, why I say have your opinion and share it. Correct those in error in how they do it, my Lord I'd be right there with ya.

But when you step up and say 100% of it is false and demonic, I close my eyes and pray forgive them Lord they know not what they are doing.

There are a few flaws with this thinking (in trying to “untangle” things you made things worse actually.

1. If one commits the “unpardonable sin, They are lost without hope. Jesus said it will not be forgiven. Not now, not ever, so there could be no redemptin from that sin once a person actually commited that sin
2. You claim it is only if people claim ALL tongues are demonic. Again this is a major issue, If you speak tongues, and it is the HS speaking through you, and I claim you spoke through a demon, Then by your definition, I have commited that sin, It does nto matter if I think all tongues speakers do that or not, And also by defenition, I am now lost forever wiht no hope of redemption.
3. Again, Your claiming whoever does that will end up in hell BECAUSE they did that, That is not found in scripture period.
You want to claim you speak in tongues and it is from God, I can;t argue because I am not there, and can not see th eproofs.

But you want to claim whoever says it is done by demons, has commited the unpardonable sin, I will argue because it is not true.

And again, Context is THe SIGNS which pointed to JESUS and who he was. Your not Christ, So no matter what, It has nothing to do you with you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How wrong can a person be?
You are calling praying in the Holy Spirit demonic.
You are blaspheming a wonderful gift - the indwelling Holy Spirit of God - demonic.
You are denying the gospel once delivered by Jesus and the Apostles.

I have never said any such thing

So as usual, in your feeble attempt to prove people wrong, You make false accusations which are not founded on truth, Like you do with most of scripture that I have heard you talk about.

You need to start looking inward man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First unbelievers mock and blaspheme the Holy Spirit (God)
and go on to call Jesus evil and adulterous ...

15 And [Jesus] said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Please show where one person called Jesus evil man!!

 

[VCO]

How wrong can a person be?
You are calling praying in the Holy Spirit demonic.
You are blaspheming a wonderful gift - the indwelling Holy Spirit of God - demonic.
You are denying the gospel once delivered by Jesus and the Apostles.

What makes you IMMUNE to what Happened to Peter, when Satan used Peter's Mouth while he was standing next to the LORD ? ? ?


Matthew 16:22-23 (ESV)
22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

 

[dcontroversal]

Please show where one person called Jesus evil man!!

Amen.....I called him on it as well.....

 

[notuptome]

Yes, that will be sad for some people. Once again we have a disagreement on the word "perfect". I don't have any problem with my knowledge of Christ,thank you. One day we'll know who was right and by then it won't have mattered.

Actually it's much more than just the understanding of 1 Cor 13:8. It is a biblical observation of how tongues are described in Acts that makes all of the Pentecostal and charismatic tongues out of order.

The clearest example is the practice of praying in tongues. The disciples asked Jesus how to pray and Jesus taught them to pray without any reference to tongues. Simple straight forward prayer to God as our Father.

Many scriptures point to how the Pentecostal charismatic notion of tongues is unsound doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

Actually it's much more than just the understanding of 1 Cor 13:8. It is a biblical observation of how tongues are described in Acts that makes all of the Pentecostal and charismatic tongues out of order.

The clearest example is the practice of praying in tongues. The disciples asked Jesus how to pray and Jesus taught them to pray without any reference to tongues. Simple straight forward prayer to God as our Father.

Many scriptures point to how the Pentecostal charismatic notion of tongues is unsound doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's not unsound doctrine. Tongues today are the same as in Acts. If it wasn't unsound doctrine then it isn't today.

 

[notuptome]

It's not unsound doctrine. Tongues today are the same as in Acts. If it wasn't unsound doctrine then it isn't today.

I would agree if that were true.

Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

No appearance like cloven tongues of fire as per verse 3. No hearing in their own tongue in which we were born per verse 8. Unless you can state otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

I would agree if that were true.

Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

No appearance like cloven tongues of fire as per verse 3. No hearing in their own tongue in which we were born per verse 8. Unless you can state otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sooo you're saying every time a person received the Holy Spirit in the NT there was cloven tongues? I don't think so.


Another story if you can bear with me. A friend of my parents moved to Canada from another country. One Sunday he was walking past a church and heard a lady speaking. He stopped,went into the church and stayed till the service was over. He went to the pastor, excited, saying he wanted to meet the Lebanese lady he had heard speaking from the street. The pastor told him there was no one there that was Lebanese. He insisted and said she had spoken to him in his own language and told him how to get saved. The pastor had to explain what had happened. That man today is pastor of a huge church, which I was honored to minister at, in Canada today. His son is also in ministry because of one person speaking in tongues. So yes,I believe tongues is real. It wasn't gibberish to him,he became saved and a minister of the Gospel because of that women. And it sure wasn't demon power. So you all can argue till the cows come home and twist every Scripture you like you will not change my mind. I met that man, saw the 500+ people attending his church. Don't tell me that's the devils work, gibberish or a trance like state with repetitive words. That was Acts in motion. If you don't want to speak in tongues,don't. But don't denigrate those that do as charlatans and fakes.Just because some idiot misuses a gift doesn't mean it's fake,demonic or a trance. As the blind man said "this I know,once I was blind and now I see." Tongues isn't the most important but it was the most important to that man at that moment and God used that women to lead him to Christ.

 

[notuptome]

Sooo you're saying every time a person received the Holy Spirit in the NT there was cloven tongues? I don't think so.


Another story if you can bear with me. A friend of my parents moved to Canada from another country. One Sunday he was walking past a church and heard a lady speaking. He stopped,went into the church and stayed till the service was over. He went to the pastor, excited, saying he wanted to meet the Lebanese lady he had heard speaking from the street. The pastor told him there was no one there that was Lebanese. He insisted and said she had spoken to him in his own language and told him how to get saved. The pastor had to explain what had happened. That man today is pastor of a huge church, which I was honored to minister at, in Canada today. His son is also in ministry because of one person speaking in tongues. So yes,I believe tongues is real. It wasn't gibberish to him,he became saved and a minister of the Gospel because of that women. And it sure wasn't demon power. So you all can argue till the cows come home and twist every Scripture you like you will not change my mind. I met that man, saw the 500+ people attending his church. Don't tell me that's the devils work, gibberish or a trance like state with repetitive words. That was Acts in motion. If you don't want to speak in tongues,don't. But don't denigrate those that do as charlatans and fakes.Just because some idiot misuses a gift doesn't mean it's fake,demonic or a trance. As the blind man said "this I know,once I was blind and now I see." Tongues isn't the most important but it was the most important to that man at that moment and God used that women to lead him to Christ.

Stories are nice but they are stories and not biblical foundations.

You said that what you see today is what was presented in Acts. I merely showed you what is in Acts 2 and asked if that is what you see today. Obviously the two are quire dissimilar. It goes far beyond simply what the "perfect" is representing in 1 Cor 13.

God saves people according to the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convinces of sin, righteousness, and judgment by the declaration of Gods word. Saving faith is the result of hearing the word of God. The gospel is salvation by grace through faith. Simple foundational truths that are not replaced by signs, wonders or miracles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

I would agree if that were true.

Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

No appearance like cloven tongues of fire as per verse 3. No hearing in their own tongue in which we were born per verse 8. Unless you can state otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So... you're taking narrative as doctrine. That's usually a bad idea.

Where were the cloven tongues of fire in Acts 10 and 19? Where was the interpretation? Where were the unsaved Jews hearing the words spoken in tongues?

Sorry, you cannot create a sound biblically doctrine of tongues solely from Acts 2.

 

[notuptome]

So... you're taking narrative as doctrine. That's usually a bad idea.

Where were the cloven tongues of fire in Acts 10 and 19? Where was the interpretation? Where were the unsaved Jews hearing the words spoken in tongues?

Sorry, you cannot create a sound biblically doctrine of tongues solely from Acts 2.

Yet it is completely acceptable for you to create a basis for your behavior from these same scriptures even though the behavior is not wholly consistent with the narrative?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So... you're taking narrative as doctrine. That's usually a bad idea.

Where were the cloven tongues of fire in Acts 10 and 19? Where was the interpretation? Where were the unsaved Jews hearing the words spoken in tongues?

Sorry, you cannot create a sound biblically doctrine of tongues solely from Acts 2.

Acts 10 shows that they were speaking in various languages known by men, I would not interpret it to say something else. Especially since there is no evidence anythign else happened. Acts 10 and 19 does not say these events were any different, so I still would not want to ADD somewthing that is not found in the text.

 

[Dino246]

Yet it is completely acceptable for you to create a basis for your behavior from these same scriptures even though the behavior is not wholly consistent with the narrative?

My behavior is not the subject of discussion here. What the Scripture says about speaking in tongues is.

 

[Dino246]

Acts 10 shows that they were speaking in various languages known by men, I would not interpret it to say something else. Especially since there is no evidence anythign else happened. Acts 10 and 19 does not say these events were any different, so I still would not want to ADD somewthing that is not found in the text.

I'm not adding anything. I'm saying that Roger's assertion that cloven tongues of fire plus interpretation are not recorded in all cases, and therefore cannot be considered normative for the manifestation to be considered genuine.

By the way, Acts 10 only says "speaking in tongues and praising God". It doesn't say, "speaking in tongues known by men".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not adding anything. I'm saying that Roger's assertion that cloven tongues of fire plus interpretation are not recorded in all cases, and therefore cannot be considered normative for the manifestation to be considered genuine.

By the way, Acts 10 only says "speaking in tongues and praising God". It doesn't say, "speaking in tongues known by men".

Cloven power tongues of fire

Again, where do you get this? And what do you think it means?

 

[garee]

I would agree if that were true.

Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

No appearance like cloven tongues of fire as per verse 3. No hearing in their own tongue in which we were born per verse 8. Unless you can state otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Cloven tongues as a sizzling fire.

Tongues that thirst first the hearing of God where used as a vision or sign that as a shadow pointed to the gospel .It would seem to simply be a stamp of His approval . In 1 kings 18 Elijah is shown as the one that did have the approval of God licking up the water to represent the gospel the power of life and death

And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God. 1 kings 18

 

[VCO]

It's not unsound doctrine. Tongues today are the same as in Acts.
If it wasn't unsound doctrine then it isn't today.

NO IT IS NOT. When the APOSTLES DID IT, TONGUES were Earthly Languages from every part of the KNOW WORLD, where JEWS had Migrated. They were UNBELIEVING JEWS, and Heard in their native Dialect, the Mighty Works of GOD. How do I know those specific rules are the ONLY TYPE OF TONGUES that are REAL?


Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6 “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


The Ecstatic Gibberish is NOT AN EARTHY LANGUAGE.

It is NOT SPOKEN TO UNBELIEVERS of ISRAEL.

It is NOT To Validate NEW WORDS, the became our NEW TESTAMENT.

It is NOT to EDIFY OTHERS, IT IS TO EDIFY SELF, WHICH IS FORBIDDEN.


Acts 2:5-16 (ESV)
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
7 And they were amazed and astonished, [because Galileans were known to have a strong accent, and they could not detect it,]
saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”
13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, [only the eleven APOSTLES spoke in GENUINE TONGUES,]
lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:


1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (ASV)
21 In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues [.the ELEVEN APOSTLES,] and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people [.ISRAEL]; and not even thus will they hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.


Mark 16:20 (ASV)
20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.


1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
Let no man seek his own [edification], but each his neighbor's good.


1 Corinthians 14:4 (ASV)
4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself;
but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


Paul gave a CLEAR MESSAGE that NO ONE WAS TO EDIFIETH HIMSELF, but the Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches never paid attention to what PAUL said less than for chapter earlier. A letter with NO VERSE NUMBERS INCLUDED. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians to Straighten out SEVERAL PROBLEMS IN CORINTH, including Abuse of tongues. INCLUDING:


1 Corinthians 12:2-3 (ESV)
2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.


That is obvious that someone who had learned to speak in tongues in the worship of one of the Mystery Religions, such as APOLLO, thought he could that, and out came the Curse which the speaker could not understand, but THANKFULLY some one in the Congregation understood that LANGUAGE. So one of the Elders wrote to Paul that he needed to straighten the MESS out.

This is a map of the City Center in Corinth, which was destroyed in November 856, an earthquake in Corinth killed an estimated 45,000, and it was never rebuilt. The Church at Corinth was meeting at the home of a Jewish Believer who was still worshiping at the Synagogue of the Hebrews. Paul was staying with the home owner, and Taught at the Synagogue for some time, before they got kicked the out of the Synagogue. See the Bema, upper left Corner; they think that is where Paul continued to teach after they got kicked out of the Synagogue. I have seen other maps that were 180 degrees the other way, so I do not know which is right. The Synagogue of the Hebrews, was a mystery until a few years ago. Corinth was destroyed by an earthquake and never rebuilt. An Archaeologist found a flat stone on the Lechaion Way, one of the main Streets that lead into the City Center, about where the dot for the Lechaion Way is. Apparently, he is the FIRST person that Every turned that stone over since the Destruction of Corinth in the massive earthquake in 856. To his amazement, it was a sign that said Synagogue of the Hebrews. That pinpoints where the Church met when it first started. Synagogue of the Hebrews is the building with line running across the roof, labeling Lechaion Way. And the smaller house next door just to the south, was where on Paul stayed while a small congregation met their as home Church.


Acts 18:7 (HCSB)
7 So he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next door to the synagogue.

 

[notuptome]

My behavior is not the subject of discussion here. What the Scripture says about speaking in tongues is.

Speaking in tongues or praying in tongues as used in this discussion is a behavior. As to what you do I leave that to you I am speaking in the general sense and not in the personal sense.

Claiming to speak in tongues or to pray in tongues is a behavior not supported in scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Cloven power tongues of fire

Again, where do you get this? And what do you think it means?

I'm quoting Roger's words. Those questions are best directed to him.