is jesus god ?? or son of g0d ?

[Worship]

become a man & died on the cross, for the salvation of mankind.

Can God forgive us whithout killing himself or his son ((or)) not, The people who was before Jesus (peace be upon him), the Men and Women who bilieved in the One God, the Creator, and bilieved in the previous words of God, and obayed the prophets and masengors of God, and did what he comanded, Did they had a salvation ((or)) not, if yes, that means that there was no need for God to become aman, and there was no need for killing anybody to be able to forgive the people.

 

[Peacefulcrusader]

Can God forgive us whithout killing himself or his son ((or)) not, The people who was before Jesus (peace be upon him), the Men and Women who bilieved in the One God, the Creator, and bilieved in the previous words of God, and obayed the prophets and masengors of God, and did what he comanded, Did they had a salvation ((or)) not, if yes, that means that there was no need for God to become aman, and there was no need for killing anybody to be able to forgive the people.

In fact, God will not forgive unless blood is shed, and the only perfect sacrifice was His Son. You can read the Letters to the Hebrewes in the New Testament to understand more about this. Jesus is understood as the final and perfect sacrifice. All the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant (which we can read about in the Books of Moses (such as Exodus etc)) were only temporary sacrifices who could please God for a time, before the final and perfect sacrifice was made through Jesus Christ on the cross.

The God of the Bible stands true to His principles and commandments, so when for instance The Ten Commandments say "you shall not steal" or "you shall not lie" etc. it means that God will not tolerate stealing or lying. God will not simply ignore that people break his Holy commandments. No! So in order for us to be forgiven for our sins, He sent His own Son, because it was only Jesus Christ who did NOT break any commandments, and so, He could give His own life to pay for our sins.

Who wants to believe in a God which doesn't hold true to His own principles and commandments? If your God says "do not steal", and you steal - and your God doesn't come up with any sanctions - but rather ignores it (maybe He's afraid of you?), would you take Him seriously? Probably not! But a holy God - the God of the Bible - stands true to what He has said. And because He understands that keeping all the commandments is impossible for us, He decided to solve OUR problem (sins) on HIS own account (by sending His Son to atone for our sins).

So it was absolutely necessary for God to become a man, and for him to be sacrificed. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, you must answer to God on the day of Judgment, and you must convince a Holy God that all your sins are "ok", and something this Holy God should simply ignore... Are you willing to take that chance?

 

[Worship]

He sent His own Son, because it was only Jesus Christ who did NOT break any commandments

He decided to solve OUR problem (sins) on HIS own account (by sending His Son to atone for our sins).

Are you saying that God killed the one who did not break any commandment, to forgive the people who breaking his commandments, Is that fair, Did our God killed an Innocent person to forgive the bad people, the Punishment must be on the people who breake the commandments not on the one who did not breake any commandment, ((And unto God belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil with that which they have done, and reward those who do good with goodness.)) Qur'an53:31, ((That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).)) Qur'an53:38,39, ((No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only).)) Qur'an 6:164.

Who wants to believe in a God which doesn't hold true to His own principles and commandments? If your God says "do not steal", and you steal - and your God doesn't come up with any sanctions - but rather ignores it (maybe He's afraid of you?), would you take Him seriously? Probably not! But a holy God - the God of the Bible - stands true to what He has said. And because He understands that keeping all the commandments is impossible for us, He decided to solve OUR problem (sins) on HIS own account (by sending His Son to atone for our sins).

Is there any another solve like ((Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, verily God forgives all sins. Verily He! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. And turn penitently Unto your Lord and submit Unto Him ere there cometh Unto you the torment, and then ye shall not be succoured. And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not! ''. Lest a soul should say:''Alas! for that I have been remiss in respect of God, and I was but of the scoffers! ''. Or (lest) he should say: "If only God had guided me, I should indeed have been among the dutiful!."Or (lest) he should say when he sees the torment: "If only I had another chance (to return to the world) then I should indeed be among the righteous!" )) Qur'an 39:53-58
((But those who committed evil deeds and then repented afterwards and believed, verily, your Lord after (all) that is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.))Qur'an 7:153

In fact, God will not forgive unless blood is shed.... So it was absolutely necessary for God to become a man, and for him to be sacrificed.

will return to our original question…. The people who was before Jesus (peace be upon him), the Men and Women who bilieved in the One God, the Creator, and bilieved in the previous words of God, and obayed the prophets and masengors of God, and did what he comanded, Did they had a salvation ((or)) not, if yes, that means that there was no need for God to become aman, and there was no need for killing anybody to be able to forgive the people.

 

[Dutch41]

Are you saying that God killed the one who did not break any commandment, to forgive the people who breaking his commandments, Is that fair, Did our God killed an Innocent person to forgive the bad people, the Punishment must be on the people who breake the commandments not on the one who did not breake any commandment, ((And unto God belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil with that which they have done, and reward those who do good with goodness.)) Qur'an53:31, ((That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).)) Qur'an53:38,39, ((No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only).)) Qur'an 6:164.


Is there any another solve like ((Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, verily God forgives all sins. Verily He! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. And turn penitently Unto your Lord and submit Unto Him ere there cometh Unto you the torment, and then ye shall not be succoured. And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not! ''. Lest a soul should say:''Alas! for that I have been remiss in respect of God, and I was but of the scoffers! ''. Or (lest) he should say: "If only God had guided me, I should indeed have been among the dutiful!."Or (lest) he should say when he sees the torment: "If only I had another chance (to return to the world) then I should indeed be among the righteous!" )) Qur'an 39:53-58
((But those who committed evil deeds and then repented afterwards and believed, verily, your Lord after (all) that is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.))Qur'an 7:153


will return to our original question…. The people who was before Jesus (peace be upon him), the Men and Women who bilieved in the One God, the Creator, and bilieved in the previous words of God, and obayed the prophets and masengors of God, and did what he comanded, Did they had a salvation ((or)) not, if yes, that means that there was no need for God to become aman, and there was no need for killing anybody to be able to forgive the people.

Yes.. they got Salvation.. in the book of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuterononium you can read, that there was needed offering for sinn.,
so that they where forgiven.

God who became human.

The interesting part is that you quote from Soera 39. And when we read vs 4 we can read the different between allah and God.

4 Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: But Glory be to Him! He is above such things. He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible.

Is that true? He choose one who create one? No.. Here made Mohammed a mistake.. because God sacrify Him self.. He gave Him self as an offering. It isn't just like I pick one person who have to die.

The Creator Him self is going to be an human.

And you can only come to the heaven than by Jesus.. He is the Door.

 

[Peacefulcrusader]

Are you saying that God killed the one who did not break any commandment, to forgive the people who breaking his commandments, Is that fair, Did our God killed an Innocent person to forgive the bad people, the Punishment must be on the people who breake the commandments not on the one who did not breake any commandment, ((And unto God belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil with that which they have done, and reward those who do good with goodness.)) Qur'an53:31, ((That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).)) Qur'an53:38,39, ((No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only).)) Qur'an 6:164.

Hi Worship.

Yes, that is what I am saying, that God demanded - and received - as sacrifice the one who was without sin. And that this pure sacrifice was neccessary to pay for the sins of all human beings who sin against God. No one except Jesus is clean and holy in the eyes of God. We are all corrupted by sin. And a holy God cannot accept sinners into heaven, because his Commandments are holy, and heaven is pure. Nothing evil can enter!

Basically, those who sin must pay for it themselves - that is correct. But if any of us were to atone for our own sins, we would have to die! In order for us to be saved from death, Jesus gave his life. Through faith in him may we therefore be forgiven of our sins and be allowed to live - life eternal with God.

Is there any another solve like ((Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, verily God forgives all sins. Verily He! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. And turn penitently Unto your Lord and submit Unto Him ere there cometh Unto you the torment, and then ye shall not be succoured. And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not! ''. Lest a soul should say:''Alas! for that I have been remiss in respect of God, and I was but of the scoffers! ''. Or (lest) he should say: "If only God had guided me, I should indeed have been among the dutiful!."Or (lest) he should say when he sees the torment: "If only I had another chance (to return to the world) then I should indeed be among the righteous!" )) Qur'an 39:53-58
((But those who committed evil deeds and then repented afterwards and believed, verily, your Lord after (all) that is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.))Qur'an 7:153

No, there is no alternative. God will not forgive without reason. The only reason why God can forgive a person is according to the Bible that Jesus Christ died and paid for the sins of the world. Anyone who believes in Jesus and his sacrifice gets the atonement, so that we are clean and holy in the eyes of God. The wrath and judgment of God who would rightfully affect us, affected Jesus instead. So we are free to go, and to enter heaven and the eternal life in God's presence. In order to receive this mighty gift of forgiveness and salvation, we have to confess Jesus Christ as the atoning and risen Son of God.

will return to our original question…. The people who was before Jesus (peace be upon him), the Men and Women who bilieved in the One God, the Creator, and bilieved in the previous words of God, and obayed the prophets and masengors of God, and did what he comanded, Did they had a salvation ((or)) not, if yes, that means that there was no need for God to become aman, and there was no need for killing anybody to be able to forgive the people.

The people of the Old Testament were also saved by the grace of God through Jesus' sacrifice. They believed in the promises and words of God, and through this their faith was counted as acceptable unto God when the ultimate sacrifice was given by Jesus Christ. Hebrewes 11-13 (in the New Testament) tells about this. If Jesus Christ had not come and given his life, then the faith of Abraham, Moses and David (etc.) would have been in vain. The Old Covenant (animal sacrifices etc) was a symbol pointing forwards to the ultimate sacrifice.

Jesus Christ was the only one to ever fulfill the commandments of God perfectly, and through this he fulfilled the Law. Because of that, he - having fulfilled the Old Covenant - could establish a New Covenant. While we as humans had to fulfill the Law/Commandments perfectly in order to keep the Old Covenant, in the New Covenant Jesus asks us only to believe in him and confess him as Lord. When we do that, we will be forgiven of our sins and hence saved.

If any man wanted to be saved without believing in Christ, he would have to keep all the commandments perfectly. On the day of judgment God will test everyone on that; if they lived holy lives. If a person is not completely pure and cleansed from sins, that person may never enter heaven. As a believer in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice, God will see the holiness of Jesus when looking at you on the day of judgment, and you will enter heaven. As the prophet Isaiah spoke: "the punishment that brought us peace was on him" (53:b). The death of Jesus on the cross brought us peace with God (freedom from the judgment to hell).

If you admit before God that you are not perfect, it is my advice to you that you seek a way to be cleansed of sin. The only Way I know is Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice. If you believe that you are perfect, or that God will ignore any potential breakings of his commandments(!), then feel free to face your God alone on Judgment day - but then you will have to answer for all of your life alone, no one else can interfere on your behalf.

The best,
Peacefulcrusader

 

[wakeup]

Jesus is God in flesh, I believe. In other words, God decided to come to earth in the form of a human being, and he did so as Jesus Christ.

DID GOD DIE? CAN GOD DIE? DO WE WORSHIP A GOD THAT CAN DIE?
HOW MISERABLE, IS GOD THE SON OF DAVID?
IT IS ALL CONFUSION.

 

[wakeup]

Jesus is God. The scriptural verses to that effect are numerous, beginning with John 1:1. However, when Jesus came to earth to perform His earthly ministry, He became the Son of God. This is because He subjected Himself to God for the redemptive work that He was to perform. He is not eternally the Son of God. In the ancient near east culture, to be subject to someone, for example, a vassal king, is to be the son of that person or king you are subject to.

2 Kings 16: 7 So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, saying , I am thy servant and thy son: come up , and save me out of the hand of the king of Syria, and out of the hand of the king of Israel, which rise up against me. (KJV)

Consider the following:

Philippians 2: 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The word translated "nature" is the Greek "morphe". This word denotes the very nature and essense of the thing being imitated. Thus, He is God. If Paul had meant "having only the superficial form of God or being like God in action" he would have used the Greek word "schema" instead. Thus Jesus subjected Himself to God while in the flesh, even until death on the cross. At that time, Jesus was once again equal with God. However, as far as we are concerned, Jesus is still between us and God.

1 Corinthians 11: 3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The above is a relational scripture, in that it does not subject Jesus to God, but subjects us to Jesus, in order that we may know God.

WHEN JESUS WAS WALKING ON EARTH, WHO WAS IN HEAVEN?

 

[superdave5221]

WHEN JESUS WAS WALKING ON EARTH, WHO WAS IN HEAVEN?

God the Father, who is also a member of the Godhead.

Just because you, who live in a three dimensional world, cannot understand the workings of a God who is transcendent to that world, does not make it false. Your lack of understanding does not repudiate what is written in the Bible.

I suggest that you repent as Job did:

Job 42: 1 Then Job answered the LORD and said, 2 "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. 3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge ?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." 4 'Hear, now, and I will speak ; I will ask You, and You instruct me.' 5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear ; But now my eye sees You; 6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."

Do not try to be wiser than God. It will only reveal your foolishness.

Isaiah 9: 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders ; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Is Isaiah's prophecy false? NO!

John 20: 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands ; and reach here your hand and put it into My side ; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God !" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed ? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Your question suggests that you think that God cannot be in more than one place at at time.

Jeremiah 23: 23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off ? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth ?" declares the LORD.

Your question suggests to me that you do not understand the nature of God.

 

[journey41]

God the Father, who is also a member of the Godhead.

Just because you, who live in a three dimensional world, cannot understand the workings of a God who is transcendent to that world, does not make it false. Your lack of understanding does not repudiate what is written in the Bible.

I suggest that you repent as Job did:

Job 42: 1 Then Job answered the LORD and said, 2 "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. 3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge ?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." 4 'Hear, now, and I will speak ; I will ask You, and You instruct me.' 5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear ; But now my eye sees You; 6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."

Do not try to be wiser than God. It will only reveal your foolishness.

Isaiah 9: 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders ; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Is Isaiah's prophecy false? NO!

John 20: 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands ; and reach here your hand and put it into My side ; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God !" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed ? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Your question suggests that you think that God cannot be in more than one place at at time.

Jeremiah 23: 23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off ? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth ?" declares the LORD.

Your question suggests to me that you do not understand the nature of God.

Woe, Woe, Woe

 

[superdave5221]

Woe, Woe, Woe

I don't know if you meant your answer to be funny. But it did bring a smile to my face.

As the psalmist said, God has made the day, Let us rejoice and be glad in it.

 

[Devolution]

IF Jesus was God the Father Himself, which He is NOT, but if He were as many are saying...IF Jesus were God the Father, then WAS God lacking in something? Is there something God Himself needed to come to earth to LEARN ???? To learn from the very ones He created? For this is what you who believe this trinity thing are actually saying. You just do not realize it. This trinity thing which many follow...you are actually saying God is lacking something and needed to learn by the hands of His creation. And without realizing...by trinity...you make God an imperfect God. And this is serious.

Hebrews 4
v8: Though He were a Son, yet LEARNED He OBEDIENCE by the things which He suffered;
v9: And BEING made perfect, He BECAME the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.
v10: CALLED of God an HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchizedek.

Can God LOWER/DEMOTE Himself to be His OWN PRIEST ??? A priest REPRESENTS His God !!!!! It is a POSITION under a GOD...A God cannot be His own priest !!! Yes Jesus and God share, do not misunderstand my point...but when all is said and done, the Father is still #1.... 1 Corinthians 15:28.

DID God the Father need to LEARN obedience????????
Because the SON DID....you are actually saying God was lacking by your trinity doctrine...This is very bad.
And who did Jesus learn to be OBEDIENT to IF He were God Himself as Trinity claims??????? Did God need to learn from Himself something He didn't know but did know at the same time ???????

 

[superdave5221]

IF Jesus was God the Father Himself, which He is NOT, but if He were as many are saying...IF Jesus were God the Father, then WAS God lacking in something? Is there something God Himself needed to come to earth to LEARN ???? To learn from the very ones He created? For this is what you who believe this trinity thing are actually saying. You just do not realize it. This trinity thing which many follow...you are actually saying God is lacking something and needed to learn by the hands of His creation. And without realizing...by trinity...you make God an imperfect God. And this is serious.

Hebrews 4
v8: Though He were a Son, yet LEARNED He OBEDIENCE by the things which He suffered;
v9: And BEING made perfect, He BECAME the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.
v10: CALLED of God an HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchizedek.

Can God LOWER/DEMOTE Himself to be His OWN PRIEST ??? A priest REPRESENTS His God !!!!! It is a POSITION under a GOD...A God cannot be His own priest !!! Yes Jesus and God share, do not misunderstand my point...but when all is said and done, the Father is still #1.... 1 Corinthians 15:28.

DID God the Father need to LEARN obedience????????
Because the SON DID....you are actually saying God was lacking by your trinity doctrine...This is very bad.
And who did Jesus learn to be OBEDIENT to IF He were God Himself as Trinity claims??????? Did God need to learn from Himself something He didn't know but did know at the same time ???????

You do not understand because it is difficult to understand. But you question what the bible says on this (the total picture, not scriptures handpicked for your purposes), because of the hardness of your heart. In Phillipians 2, Paul describes how Jesus, came to the earth, and became as one of us. He gave up, (for a time) his powers, majesty, and knowledge, so that He could be tempted and subjected to trial, as we are. He became subject to the Father for this work, until completed. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in perfect agreement with each other as the Godhead. This Godhead is God. When Jesus gave up His position in the Godhead, to come to earth, He became subject to God the Father, representing the Godhead, until that work was completed. During this time, He became God the Son. He is once again God as part of the Godhead.

Jesus Christ acts as OUR great high priest until the redemption work is complete.

God does not need us for anything. Read John 3:16-21 for the reasons why Jesus was born into this world. It speaks of God's great mercy and grace, and love for us that He would do this.

 

[Devolution]

You do not understand because it is difficult to understand. But you question what the bible says on this (the total picture, not scriptures handpicked for your purposes), because of the hardness of your heart. In Phillipians 2, Paul describes how Jesus, came to the earth, and became as one of us. He gave up, (for a time) his powers, majesty, and knowledge, so that He could be tempted and subjected to trial, as we are. He became subject to the Father for this work, until completed. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in perfect agreement with each other as the Godhead. This Godhead is God. When Jesus gave up His position in the Godhead, to come to earth, He became subject to God the Father, representing the Godhead, until that work was completed. During this time, He became God the Son. He is once again God as part of the Godhead.

Jesus Christ acts as OUR great high priest until the redemption work is complete.

God does not need us for anything. Read John 3:16-21 for the reasons why Jesus was born into this world. It speaks of God's great mercy and grace, and love for us that He would do this.

Are you saying there are 3 Gods? 3 individuals?
Where does it say Jesus "emptied" Himself out of power and knowledge? It does not say this. You assume, show me scripture that states this.
Are you saying Jesus was never subject to God prior His birth?
AND also, are you saying Jesus can never be subject to His Father?
Are you saying Jesus is God the Father?
Are you saying Jesus stops being a priest until redemption is completed?

I wish to clarify before answering.

 

[superdave5221]

Are you saying there are 3 Gods? 3 individuals?

3 individuals, one Godhead, since there is perfect agreement, then each one of the three is fully God

Bible scholars have been trying to wrap their brains around this for centuries, but in the end, this is what the bible says. And we must believe it.

Where does it say Jesus "emptied" Himself out of power and knowledge? It does not say this. You assume, show me scripture that states this.

Philipians 2: 5 http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-9Have this attitude http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-ein yourselves which was also in http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-10Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-11existed in the http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-12form of God, http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-13did not regard equality with God a thing to be http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-fgrasped, 7 but http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-ghttp://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-14emptied Himself, taking the form of a http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-15bond-servant, and http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-16being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-17He humbled Himself by becoming http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-18obedient to the point of death, even http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-19death http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-hon a cross.
Notice the tense of the verb. "becoming obedient"

Are you saying Jesus was never subject to God prior His birth?

I don't know. Maybe. The bible doesn't say.

AND also, are you saying Jesus can never be subject to His Father?

Once again, maybe. According to the bible, Jesus has only become obedient to the Father when performing redemptive work in our behalf.

Are you saying Jesus is God the Father?

No. He is a member of the Godhead, therefore He is God.

Are you saying Jesus stops being a priest until redemption is completed?

He is currently our High Priest. After the judgement and resurrection of saints, He will no longer need to perform that function, because there will no longer be any sin.

I wish to clarify before answering.

To God be the glory, Amen.

 

[DanuckInUSA]

Both, pretty cool huh?

 

[Devolution]

What on earth is the bible you are quoting from ???????
The KJV is proven the most accurate by the dead sea scrolls...
what you quoted was Gods written Word tampered with big time.
No wonder you believe what you believe.

Philippians 2
v5: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,
By the renewing of OUR minds
v6: who being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Gods Word was put IN Jesus, in FULL MEASURE, the Spirit of TRUTH, that Word that comes out of His Fathers mouth & is ALIVE, and that Word never runs out, and can divide & separate, and can be put into billions of billions of men, and ALL things CONSIST of this Word and are made by "it". And that particular Word essence that created everything, that spoken Word that was separated and kept aside and was put into Jesus..THAT Word that created everything was now no longer in Heaven, where God still speaks and His INNER Word still obeys and comes out of Him, but THAT separate kept aside essence walked on this earth INSIDE of a man.

And THAT kept aside Word GRAFTED onto Jesus' OWN SOUL...and when He was resurrected, God the Father completed the GRAFTING PROCESS. And NOW because of that, that is, Jesus became ONE with that Word, NOW Jesus did in fact create everything..for He became ONE with THAT kept aside Word that DID create everything. This is how it was no considered robbery to be "equal" with God. For He has the FULL MEASURE creating essence of God WITHIN Him and became ONE with it.

Why do you think THAT Word which was mentioned thousands of times in the OT is NOT mentioned ONCE in the NT ??? And was only ever mentioned BY TITLE in the OT ??? Well, because it was no longer kept separate in heaven but WALKED the earth INSIDE of a MAN. So where are your 3 Gods now? There should have still been 2 left in heaven !!! But it is NOT THERE in the NT, nor in Heaven. And that separate "essence" was described as JESUS in the NT AFTER Jesus ASCENDED...AFTER He became ONE with it...that inner WORD...did you not notice for YOURSELF ? SO the WORD of God is the Holy Spirit. Stop thinking Jesus and thats it...it has a deeper accurate meaning. Jesus SPEAKS for God now, this is why He is called WORD OF GOD...but it is NOT talking of that other Word...Gods POWER...Gods WORKER..Gods INNER LIVING SPIRIT...Gods WORD that acts.

AND you are seriously mistaken...Jesus is still SUBJECT to His Father. Have you forgotten 1 Corinthians 15:25 ??? NOW you have a PROBLEM. Unless that is altered also.
v7: But made Himself of no reputation, and took on Him the form of a servant, and was MADE in the LIKENESS of men
Jesus was CREATED..He is the 2nd Adam....Adam was created DIRECTLY by Gods Word...and so was Jesus. Have you not heard Him called the CREATURE ?? And That Word is Spirit, and IT hovered over Mary....and IT comes from WITHIN the Father, so it is NOT a 3rd God, But is OF God...from WITHIN God...so NO, there are NOT 3 Gods, there is ONE God & His Son...Jesus God....And HOW are these TWO GODS considered ONE GOD when DESCRIBED....Because What Jesus is MADE of comes from the SAME SOURCE....His Fathers Word/Spirit. Hence ONE that are really TWO. TWO individuals that are ONE in SPIRIT. And Jesus is NOW the express IMAGE of God...for He has exactly the SAME creative Spirit within Him from that ONE SOURCE...His FATHER...NOW Jesus can CREATE also...

And who was Jesus servant to?

v8: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
What was IN Jesus was FASHIONED or MOLDED to DWELL INSIDE of a MAN. A MAN CREATED DIRECTLY BY GODS WILL, just like Adam was...NO mother no human father but God Himself the DIRECT parent.

If you cannot answer whether Jesus will become subject to God or not, then you know a lot less than you should....and by that truth, you are giving me a lesson ???? I suggest you stop reading books about the bible and pamphlets from your church & read the MAIN SOURCE of Wisdom...the Holy bible...that's IF you read those worthless books that are not the bible...oh, and get a KJV 1611 authorized....its the ONLY one backed by solid PROOF of authenticity by the dead sea SCROLLS....any other bible, including other KJV's are TAMPERED WITH.

And i ask you to refrain from smart little insults like your first insult to me. There was no need to get personal. It is not profitable for your soul.

 

[Devolution]

You do not understand because it is difficult to understand. But you question what the bible says on this (the total picture, not scriptures handpicked for your purposes), because of the hardness of your heart. In Phillipians 2, Paul describes how Jesus, came to the earth, and became as one of us. He gave up, (for a time) his powers, majesty, and knowledge, so that He could be tempted and subjected to trial, as we are. He became subject to the Father for this work, until completed. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in perfect agreement with each other as the Godhead. This Godhead is God. When Jesus gave up His position in the Godhead, to come to earth, He became subject to God the Father, representing the Godhead, until that work was completed. During this time, He became God the Son. He is once again God as part of the Godhead.

Jesus Christ acts as OUR great high priest until the redemption work is complete.

God does not need us for anything. Read John 3:16-21 for the reasons why Jesus was born into this world. It speaks of God's great mercy and grace, and love for us that He would do this.

Another point....WHY on earth would by your understanding, WHY would Jesus EMPTY Himself out, which He did nothing of the sort, WHY empty Himself out ONLY to be TAUGHT EVERYTHING....EVERYTHING by His Father when on EARTH and BEFORE His ministry even BEGAN ???? He was TAUGHT by that Spirit within Him...EVERYTHING !!!

This also is error big time and makes NO SENSE at all. Illogical and contradictory im afraid. Im not being rude, but really? Look at your statement compared to scripture !!! Do you need that i show you where to look for this truth? I have all the information within me and don't need to ask anybody or look it up, so just ask if you don't know where to look.

 

[superdave5221]

What on earth is the bible you are quoting from ???????
The KJV is proven the most accurate by the dead sea scrolls...
what you quoted was Gods written Word tampered with big time.
No wonder you believe what you believe.

Philippians 2
v5: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,
By the renewing of OUR minds
v6: who being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Gods Word was put IN Jesus, in FULL MEASURE, the Spirit of TRUTH, that Word that comes out of His Fathers mouth & is ALIVE, and that Word never runs out, and can divide & separate, and can be put into billions of billions of men, and ALL things CONSIST of this Word and are made by "it". And that particular Word essence that created everything, that spoken Word that was separated and kept aside and was put into Jesus..THAT Word that created everything was now no longer in Heaven, where God still speaks and His INNER Word still obeys and comes out of Him, but THAT separate kept aside essence walked on this earth INSIDE of a man.

And THAT kept aside Word GRAFTED onto Jesus' OWN SOUL...and when He was resurrected, God the Father completed the GRAFTING PROCESS. And NOW because of that, that is, Jesus became ONE with that Word, NOW Jesus did in fact create everything..for He became ONE with THAT kept aside Word that DID create everything. This is how it was no considered robbery to be "equal" with God. For He has the FULL MEASURE creating essence of God WITHIN Him and became ONE with it.

Why do you think THAT Word which was mentioned thousands of times in the OT is NOT mentioned ONCE in the NT ??? And was only ever mentioned BY TITLE in the OT ??? Well, because it was no longer kept separate in heaven but WALKED the earth INSIDE of a MAN. So where are your 3 Gods now? There should have still been 2 left in heaven !!! But it is NOT THERE in the NT, nor in Heaven. And that separate "essence" was described as JESUS in the NT AFTER Jesus ASCENDED...AFTER He became ONE with it...that inner WORD...did you not notice for YOURSELF ? SO the WORD of God is the Holy Spirit. Stop thinking Jesus and thats it...it has a deeper accurate meaning. Jesus SPEAKS for God now, this is why He is called WORD OF GOD...but it is NOT talking of that other Word...Gods POWER...Gods WORKER..Gods INNER LIVING SPIRIT...Gods WORD that acts.

AND you are seriously mistaken...Jesus is still SUBJECT to His Father. Have you forgotten 1 Corinthians 15:25 ??? NOW you have a PROBLEM. Unless that is altered also.
v7: But made Himself of no reputation, and took on Him the form of a servant, and was MADE in the LIKENESS of men
Jesus was CREATED..He is the 2nd Adam....Adam was created DIRECTLY by Gods Word...and so was Jesus. Have you not heard Him called the CREATURE ?? And That Word is Spirit, and IT hovered over Mary....and IT comes from WITHIN the Father, so it is NOT a 3rd God, But is OF God...from WITHIN God...so NO, there are NOT 3 Gods, there is ONE God & His Son...Jesus God....And HOW are these TWO GODS considered ONE GOD when DESCRIBED....Because What Jesus is MADE of comes from the SAME SOURCE....His Fathers Word/Spirit. Hence ONE that are really TWO. TWO individuals that are ONE in SPIRIT. And Jesus is NOW the express IMAGE of God...for He has exactly the SAME creative Spirit within Him from that ONE SOURCE...His FATHER...NOW Jesus can CREATE also...

And who was Jesus servant to?

v8: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
What was IN Jesus was FASHIONED or MOLDED to DWELL INSIDE of a MAN. A MAN CREATED DIRECTLY BY GODS WILL, just like Adam was...NO mother no human father but God Himself the DIRECT parent.

If you cannot answer whether Jesus will become subject to God or not, then you know a lot less than you should....and by that truth, you are giving me a lesson ???? I suggest you stop reading books about the bible and pamphlets from your church & read the MAIN SOURCE of Wisdom...the Holy bible...that's IF you read those worthless books that are not the bible...oh, and get a KJV 1611 authorized....its the ONLY one backed by solid PROOF of authenticity by the dead sea SCROLLS....any other bible, including other KJV's are TAMPERED WITH.

And i ask you to refrain from smart little insults like your first insult to me. There was no need to get personal. It is not profitable for your soul.

You are right, and I apologise.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. As to the KJV, much advancement in the study of languages in the last 400 years have made more current translations much more exegetical than the KJV. Knowledge of Koine Greek was limited in the 17th century and less was known about cultural linquistics. More modern versions are much more likely to be contextually correct. Those who hold to the KJV are holding on to tradition, and nothing else.

By the way, the dead sea scrolls predate the N.T. and has no bearing on the gospels and other post resurrection canon.

 

[Devolution]

You are right, and I apologise.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. As to the KJV, much advancement in the study of languages in the last 400 years have made more current translations much more exegetical than the KJV. Knowledge of Koine Greek was limited in the 17th century and less was known about cultural linquistics. More modern versions are much more likely to be contextually correct. Those who hold to the KJV are holding on to tradition, and nothing else.

By the way, the dead sea scrolls predate the N.T. and has no bearing on the gospels and other post resurrection canon.

I accept your apology.

Yes you are correct, the dead sea scrolls have no NT writings. My point was the sheer accuracy when compared to ONLY the KJV 1611 version, no other KJV versions thereafter are as accurate nor trustworthy...though i admit im not sure about the 17 hundred version, never read it. But the 16 hundred one is the one marvelled at by those researchers/translaters of those scrolls for its accuracy. And taking that accuracy into account can only add weight to the sheer dedication to accuracy those translaters of the 1611 version gave...surely that throws weight behind their credibility which by HUMAN NATURE should by all means carry over that same dedication to the NT translations also. Particular people are always particular...And they obviously went out of their way to keep every word as genuine as they could, believing in what they were doing. For if God ordained this, which i believe He did, breaking the Catholics monopoly on the written Word of which only the pope was allowed to have in bible form, then it does not matter who He used to bring it to pass, as long as it was done properly.

Yes, we will agree to disagree. I don't need to have the last say, just giving you insight to my reasoning.

Devolution.

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

The word GOD applies to Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not the Father.. not in heaven or earth, HE is the SON.. period. HE IS AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER.. and in fact all things are under CHRIST... THIS ENDS THE DISCUSSION! Whoever can't handle the fact that in heaven Jesus is God and the Father is God as well has an antichrist pride spirit. PERIOD! Jesus says in Revelations the CITY OF MY GOD, the NAME OF MY GOD, etc.. Paul says EVERYWHERE... to the From God the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ. JESUS CREATED The world because GOD gave it unto HIM to do so.. they are ONE in SPIRIT... BUT Heaven is GODS throne, all of IT! YET, JESUS HAS HIS Throne, GOD is the LIGHT OF HEAVEN and JESUS IS HIS LAMP!

WHOEVER believes otherwise is not going. IN HEAVEN WE HAVE THE FATHERS NAME AND THE NAME OF JESUS ON OUR HEADS!

Rev: 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

WATCH MY TESTIMONY PLEASE:
YouTube - Jesus Christ Testimony, I saw Jesus, Jesus loves you.


1 Corinthians 15:24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

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