is jesus god ?? or son of g0d ?

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1 Corinthians 15: 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Those are interesting verses LBG. I am quite sure that Jesus was subject to the Father when He walked on the earth, "not my will but thine be done". Sound familiar? What does it mean that "God may be all in all"? You may be right that these verses may mean that Jesus will be subject to the Father. But I don't think so. I am certainly sure that if He will be, then He is now as well.

What I believe these verses are referring to is that Jesus will be subject to the will of the Godhead, or the will of the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit in perfect unity with each other, a solidarity of will, so to speak. I think that is what is meant by "all in all".

I prefer this to your explanation, which brings the divinity of Jesus into question on one hand, or our monotheistic principles on the other. I would hesitate to take one passage, which interpretation might be questionable, and use it to outweigh the many scriptures which call for Jesus' divinity, and one God.

For your explanation begs the question, How can God be subject to God? If God is a triune God, then it is possible that the individual parts may be subject to the whole, but the whole cannot be subject to itself.

I think on this subject we as humans might be trying to fathom the unfathomable. I have never met anyone who can answer every scripture put to them on this subject whichever view they take on it.
I can only give you my opinion that logically I am sure makes little sense.

I believe Jesus is the only begotten son of the Father and was with the Father from the begining. Through him all things were made

He is the image of the Father, he has the very nature of the Father, and the fulness of the Godhead bodily rests in him.
When I see Jesus I see my saviour who in one sense can be called God because he eminates the very personhood of God living in him.
But from my reading of scripture to actually refer to Christ as God Himself means mjuch plain scripture would have to be called into question. So I, despite how I see Christ always see him as the Son of God.
Many will not accept this, but I know I am on safe ground biblkically with such an approach
The call is that we must believe Jesus is the son of God to have eternal life

If anyone believes that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1 John 4:15

And this is the author who wrote the book that many refer to as proof that Christ is God
 
The answer you can find in Fil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who is Jesus? Well, He is was in the form of God, equal of God.. And He is the Word of God. And God is the Word.

So when we read that God became a human, we understand why He called His Father God.

When we we read Act 20:28 there is written some interesting:
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Here in this verse we can see the church of God, is purchased with His own blood. And the blood of God, is Jesus revealed in Human.

The Bible teach God became a human. And like I believe a tri-unity.



Do you know what Jesus said about this? I think it is good to ask questions.. but it is better to seek the answers by your self. Because the sollution is there.. written in the Bible. :)

Jesus said by His own words, written in John 2:19-22(confirming written in Mt and Mr)
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


When Jesus was human, He was complete human.. not for a part.. but like you and me.

And I think when you read the passage and study the Bible by your own.. I think you get your answers. :)


IF JESUS IS god LIKE WHAT YOU UDERSTAND IT? THEN WHAT WAS GODS REWARD AFTER GOD WAS RESURECTED ? SINCE EVERYTHING BELONGS TO GOD , WHAT CAN BE MORE REWARDING TO GOD ?
YOU SEE IT ALL GETS CONFUSING . I BELIEVE , JESUS IS THE WORD ,WORD WORD, OF GOD,THAT WAS MADE FLESH. HE PROCEEDED OUT OF GOD JOHN16:27.28. ----I CAME OUT, OUT, OUT,FROM GOD.
THE WORD CAME OUT FROM GOD , ( YOUR WORDS COME OUT OF YOU . IF SOME ONE DISHONOR YOUR WORD . (
I HOPE IT MAKES MORE SENSE.---------------WAKEUP
 
john 1:1 in the beginning was the word , and the
WORD was with GOD and the word was god.
The word of God is not God himself , God said alot of words, in your opinion which word is him exactly.
same as your word is in you and you are your word. simple..
Simple?? am i my word?? well, iam saying alot of words, which word is me, the same. my words are not me but iam just saying it. iam doing alot of deeds, my deeds are not me, but iam doing it. does my words make sense.
moh. is 630yrs after jesus .
What is the point, Jesus (peace be upon him) is after Moses and Jacop and Abraham and others.
where were the muslims during those thousands of yrs ?
The Moslim is the one who submiting to God's Will, therefore the people who were whith Jesus (peace be upon him) and accepted the revelation which God gave to him and bilieved in him (the right faith) were Moslims, the people who were whith Moses, Noah, Abraham, Jacop, Joseph and all the Masengors and Prophets of God and accepted the revelation which God gave to them were Moslims, Islam is an Arabic word means submission to God, our Creator, ((And who turns away from the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous. When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinn and all that exists)."
And this (submission to God, Islam) was enjoined by Ibrahim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya'qub (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! God has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims - Islamic Monotheism)."
Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya'qûb (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilah (God ), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), One Ilah (God), and to Him we submit (in Islam).")) Qur'an 2:130_133
Joseph said, (("My Lord! You have indeed bestowed on me of the sovereignty, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams - the (Only) Creator of the heavens and the earth! You are my Walî (Protector, Helper, Supporter, Guardian, God, Lord.) in this world and in the Hereafter. Cause me to die as a Muslim (the one submitting to Your Will), and join me with the righteous.")) Qur'an 13:101
Jesus SUBMITTED himself to God, Moses and Abraham SUBMITTED thimselfes to God, Joseph and Jacop SUBMITTED thimselfes to God and all the Prophets submited thimselfs to God, all of them were Moslims and all of theire Followers too.

you seem to believe in jesus but you are totaly ignoring his comandments
((And when Isa (Jesus) came with; evidences, he said: of a surety I have come Unto you with Wisdom, and to expound Unto you some of that wherein ye differ; so fear God and obey me.Verily God! He is my lord and your Lord, so worship Him: this is the straight path.)) Qur'an 43:63,64, therefore i worship the God who Jesus (peace be upon him) was praying to him and comanded people to worship him, ((He said: " verily I am a servant of God: He hath given me the Book and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blest wheresoever I be, and enjoined on me the prayer and the Charity as long as I am alive, And dutecus Unto my mother, and hath not made me high-handed, unblest, And peace be on me the day was born and the day die and the day I shall be raised up alive.)) Qur'an 19:29-33

to worship GOD is a very serious thing. it is life or death, we must take GOD very seriously .
Right, (( Say (to them):"God gives you life, then causes you to die, then gathereth you unto the Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt ". But most of mankind know not. And unto God belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth; and on the day when the Hour riseth, on that day those who follow falsehood will be lost )) Qur'an 45:26,27
((O men! Call to mind the grace of God unto you! is there a creator, other than God, to give you sustenance from heaven or earth? There is no God but He: how then are ye deluded away from the Truth?)) Qur'an 35:3
 


Incorrect.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

The Word was God.

Hi Trust

That is a mistranslaton. The actual verse.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was Divine.

Jesus was not the entire Word. He was a word from the word meaning he was created from the Word of God.
 
Hi C

Jesus raised himself up from the dead ?

The bible is the inspired word of God but no one can say what Jesus pbuh last words were. Well people will produce an elaborate timeline and deduce what they think it was but that is not the point. One of the most witnesses events in history but all gospels have a different account and have different last words. Woe to the scribe for the mess they have created.

Jesus prophesied that he will be like Jonah pbut. Jonah was perceived dead by all when he was swallowed by the whale but he was alive. I can just imagine Jonah pbuh return.

Hey Jonah you are suppose to be dead. Are you a ghost ?

Here touch me, see I have a body.

Oh my God it is you Jonah.
The Gospels , PBUH, do not have differing accounts of the last few words of Christ, but complimentary accounts. One apostle remembers some of the words, the other apostle remembers the rest. Together, the 4 gospels speak the whole truth as to what the last words of Christ were. Unless the Bible is infallible, we cannot know the whole truth. The Bible is infallible; therefore, we can know the whole truth of what Christ said and did. As for Christ being created, that is false. The Father is uncreated, Christ the Son, the Word of God, is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. God is uncreated. Not made. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
 
1. on the cross why did he cry . my god my god ?

Jesus cries out in fulfillment of prophecy concerning the crucifixion (Ps 22:1)
Note the other details of the crucifixion in v7-8, v14-15,
V16, v17, v18

1*To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” a Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?

2*O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3*But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4*Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.

5*They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
6*But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7*All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8*“He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
9*But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10*I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11*Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12*Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13*They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion.
14*I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15*My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death.
16*For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; 17*I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18*They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.

Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy, and ALL prophecy concerning him must be taken into account. As we are told,

3*Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
Or who may stand in His holy place?
4*He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, Nor sworn deceitfully.
5*He shall receive blessing from the Lord, And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6*This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah
7*Lift up your heads, O you gates! And be lifted up, you everlasting doors! And the King of glory shall come in. 8*Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
The Lord mighty in battle.
9*Lift up your heads, O you gates! Lift up, you everlasting doors! And the King of glory shall come in.
10*Who is this King of glory?
The Lord of hosts, He is the King of glory. Selah
(Ps 24:3-10)
 
hi everyone interested in this mystery. most believe that jesus is god.
well if thats your believe , that only create a lot of questions :

1. on the cross why did he cry . my god my god ?

2. why did he say , into your hand i commit my apirit ?
3. why did he say , my father is greater than i
4. why did he say i my self can not do anything ?
5. in revelation ch. 3:12 why did he call his father my god and your god ?
6. now in heaven why is he sitting next to god ?


all these questions needs to be answered with total honesty you can not just accept any ones opinion without looking in to it very seriously because it is most important to know who you are realy worshiping this is called . knowing your lord spending time to seek him. because you dont him on the mountain or behind that hill or in this church or that church (need to read john4:21-----24)


so, who is jesus realy. you start with reading john 1:1 : in the beginning was the Word and the word was with GOD and the WORD was GOD : it simply is saying that GODS WORD is inside him just like our word is inside us. we also can achieve things just by speaking. because we are created in the image of GOD :

now the WORD became flesh, how did he do this? well he simply commanded the womb of mary to conceive
mary got pregnant , and a man child was born: and the WORD became flesh. and he dwellt among us(men ) inside the flesh dwells GOD. he is the temple of GOD, when he open his mouth god is speaking.
.


Dear WAKEUP, Here is what God says through St. John in the Bible.
"Beloved, cease believing every spirit, but keep on putting the spirits to the test, if they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. In this know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ hath come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit which confesseth not that Jesus Christ hath come in the flesh is not of God. And this is that spirit of the antichrist, which ye have heard that it is coming, and now already it is in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome then, because greater is the One in you than the one in the world. They are of the world; therefore they speak of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God; the one knowing God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." I John 4:1-6 ONT (Orthodox New Testament, Volume 2); p. 482. .... God bless us all who are in Christ Jesus. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


 
Wow! At the risk of offending almost everyone, I have to interject a question in this discussion (argument?). Does it really matter? I personally believe that Jesus Christ was God, based on His answer when Phillip asked "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

In addition, in Jeremiah 32, verse 27, God Himself said “I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?" Part of the awe of the Christmas story, I believe, is that God could take all His considerable might and pack it into the body of a small infant; so helpless and dependent on others.

I believe that people of the day were not able to grasp the concept that God was living among them. Therefore He chose to reveal Himself through a "Son". In numerous places in the Old Testament, when speaking directly to men, God refers to them as "son of man". This is prevalent throughout the Books of the Prophets. "Son of man" was obviously a man. It follows then, in my opinion, that "Son of God " was God.

But, really, whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, or God Himself, does not change the message of the gospel. "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. ... But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Romans 5:6,8-9)

So I think we should be focusing on what Christ did for us, and all mankind, rather than who He was.
 
But, really, whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, or God Himself, does not change the message of the gospel. "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. ... But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Romans 5:6,8-9)

quote]

Some great posts being written tonight!
Though my personal opinion of who Jesus should be called maybe different to yours, I wholeheartedly agreee with you, it does not change the messaage of the Gospel
I wish more could see with the insight you obviously have

For you obviously know what REALLY matters. And it isn't to argue over theology, but know the heart of the message, not just the literal words of what is written

God Bless
 
In the Old Testament, the Christ is called "the son of David", in reference to the declaration of God, as we are told,
" 'And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.’ ” (2 Sam 7:16)

Jesus himself brings this up to the scribes, referencing the Scripture,
A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord,“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” (Ps 110:1)


35*Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?
36*For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
37*Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’ ; how is He then his Son?”
And the common people heard Him gladly. (Mk 12:35-37)

The answer is that the son of David, Jesus, is BOTH Lord and Son. For God speaks through his servant David of Himself, God the Son, who shall sit on an eternal throne as a son of David. .
How can the Lord God, not born of man, be spoken of as a descendant of David? Isaiah tells us, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Is 7:14)
"Immanuel" which being interpreted is "God with us".

God as both Father and Son!!
 
So I think we should be focusing on what Christ did for us, and all mankind, rather than who He was.

I appreciate your will to disarm some participants by referring to what Jesus actually did for us, but I'm afraid that not focusing on who he was/is, may be an unfortunate solution to this problem/argument. Who Jesus was/is is very important regarding what he did for us. Personally, I believe like you, that he was God, but also the Son of God. Understanding God is not easy, but the combined testimony of the Bible points in the direction that Jesus was the Son of God, conversing with the Father etc., and at the same time fully of the Being of God. When we come to faith, we become adopted sons/daughters of God, but Jesus is the only begotten one, present before the world began. That makes him God, inevitably.
 
did i ever say i am the wise man? no twisting my words around please no time for that.
you still has not answered my question? please explain step by step who is jesus you certainly can not explain it by using trinety it will be more mind bogeling , but that is the whole idea to confuse to make them feel stupid
so they stop asking more questions. re, reading books, i only read one book if it is concerning GOD : the holy bible. read luke10:22 . about knowing jesus. no man knows the son but the father? what say you? to cont.
and he to whom the son will reveal him. the doctrine of the trinety will only confuse, but thats what it is all about to confuse. so you must be allert my friend. wakeup

Dear Wakeup, Zossima did not say anything wrong. I haven't read it yet, but I, too, would recommend the book "ON THE INCARNATION" by St. Athanasios the Great. He was a great Church father/teacher. In Erie PA Scott Harrington PS You will not rightly understand the Bible without the Church that wrote the Bible (1 Tim. 3:15). You may fall into some kind of doctrinal error if you don't have the Church and the Holy Spirit to correct you. If I fall into any error, I pray God send to me an Orthodox Christian to show me the way back to the truth. Of course, Wakeup, If you do not believe in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you surely should believe that, because it is taught by God in Scripture; See Matthew 28:19, and so on. God bless you. Amen.

 
2. why did he say , into your hand i commit my spirit ?
3. why did he say , my father is greater than i
4. why did he say I myself can not do anything ?

In the Old Testament the Messiah is portrayed as a Suffering Servant. In Isaiah 52 we are told,
"He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4*Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5*But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed. "(Is 53:3-5)

When a man submits himself to another person, the whole of their nature does not change, the servant is not "sub-human" because he submits. Their humanity remains the same. As with God the Son, he chose to put himself under submission to the Father, that the will of God might be done. His nature was, and always is, equal to God. Jesus told Peter,
"52*But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53*Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
54*How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

Jesus could have refused to suffer death on the cross, but instead chose to put himself under submission to the Father.
 
The answer you can find in Fil 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Who is Jesus? Well, He is was in the form of God, equal of God.. And He is the Word of God. And God is the Word.

So when we read that God became a human, we understand why He called His Father God.

When we we read Act 20:28 there is written some interesting:
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Here in this verse we can see the church of God, is purchased with His own blood. And the blood of God, is Jesus revealed in Human.

The Bible teach God became a human. And like I believe a tri-unity.



Do you know what Jesus said about this? I think it is good to ask questions.. but it is better to seek the answers by your self. Because the sollution is there.. written in the Bible. :)

Jesus said by His own words, written in John 2:19-22(confirming written in Mt and Mr)
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


When Jesus was human, He was complete human.. not for a part.. but like you and me.

And I think when you read the passage and study the Bible by your own.. I think you get your answers. :)




REPLY

YOU HAVE IT ALL MIXED UP BUDY , GOD IS NOT THE WORD, JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD.
REV.19:13

CAN YOU SHOW ME A SCR. THAT SAYS , GOD BECAME FLESH? THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID?
 
Incorrect.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

The Word was God.



I AM SORRY YOU GUYS , I KNOW THIS IS THE MOST DEEP SUBJECT TO DISCUS,
JUST SHOWERING THE SCREEN WITH SCR. THAT IS NOT RELATED TO THE QUESTION
DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION. MY QUESTIONS WERE HONEST QUESTIONS,AND NO ONE
CANANSWER IT SO FAR. MAYBE NEXT TIME. WAKEUP