Calvinism And Predestination

[calibob]

His heart is in saving all, but He can only achieve what is possible.

With God all things are possible. And in the post trib., world I think many will get a second chance. The lake of fire is reserved for Lucifer and his minions. Those who have never bowed to a dictator like Satin or a false idol etc. Will have 1000 years to get to know Jesus before the devil is loosed again. Judgment will follow. Stop putting the cart before the horse. The white throne Judgment is a millennia away from now.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I had a conversation with a brother the other day.

The basis was this. Imagine inside ourselves we are flexible and able to adjust to people and ideas.
Over time we get bashed about and certain positions take hold and we refuse to move or are incapable
of moving. As time goes by, more and more of these position occur until we are stuck solid. Pick a subject
here comes the answer. Nothing moves us anymore.

So such a person comes to faith. But inside they are still locked down and solid and refuse to move on
any of the issues they have. Apart from the faith they profess, are they any different at all from when they
did not have any faith?

The reason I ask this simply because of what Jesus said. We must become like little children. So we must
be open, flexible, movable, willing to learn and change everything within us.
Secondly we must learn by doing, establish new ways of behaving through experiencing them.
This is not by analysing, but by literally doing and then working out our responses.
We literally become new people, with a new foundation and a new way of behaving.

Now all of this is impossible if we stay locked down, frozen individuals. I would suggest if this is us, we
do not know Jesus and have not repented, and stopped defending our hurts and pains that underpin the
positions and approaches we refuse to budge on. Now for me this is the beginning of knowing Jesus, when
we shift and start to follow Jesus. And it costs our established life, to build a new life in Christ.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Our perspectives and experiences often lead us to
the place we are at in terms of outlook. And as you say, I think both are true, because
they reflect certain people and certain situations.

I witnessed years ago to one lady, and she just opened up to the Lord and accepted Him.
It was like knocking on a door. I also showed a christian film to 40 odd people at a time,
and preached at the end. This sowed a seed that lead to a mini revival, because the word
spoke in the right way. I have read of revivals where everyone comes to faith with great
conviction, yet this is quite rare.

And here on cc I would have expected encouragement to walk in the ways of Jesus and to
share love and truth of His word, yet I find some pick fights, want to stamp out and ban
such expressions, which is so odd, considering this is just Jesus's word. The pharisees were
so close to getting it right, yet they killed Jesus. I get the feeling some would similarly do
the same to me if they could, lol. They certainly get angry enough. And this does not worry
them, that so much sin could erupt from talking about Gods word and His plain commands.

with particular attention to the highlighted

and how. yet killing Jesus was always God's plan. and yet woe to those who did...as it was always God's plan for Judas to betray and woe to him also!~

it's all there. humans.

anger, which is denied, is always the giveaway. I have been angry at times but I tend to ask myself why that is so

no use to deny being angry if you are. I find myself far less angry now though but I marvel at the misuse of scripture and the twisting of it and the twisting of what people post

it has all been said in this forum many times by different people at different times

the fact there is far less moderation here, means we should self moderate. some take it as a license to sin against others and call it righteous.

but back to the different personalities we all have. and experiences. those revivals had the Holy Spirit at the helm...takes a bit of a broken person for God to work through I think. as Jesus said, if He is lifted up He will draw all men to Him

not doctrine, not yelling at people to get an emotional response...but just the simple truth of the gospel

signs follow those who believe and His word does not return to Him void

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...so where it speaks of "the Church which is His body" [Rom8] (not "the guests [plural]" [Matt22, etc] / for MK), this is what Ephesians 1:4 speaks to ("according as He hath chosen us IN HIM *BEFORE* the foundation of the world")... and is also what the predestination-type words pertain to (one receives the package deal, so to speak, at salvation: justification, sanctification, glorification--all is sure [for the believer]).

I feel the need to add clarification to the above portion of my earlier post.

I do not believe that the phrase "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (pertaining to "the Church which is His body") means that we existed (as He did) before the foundation of the world. This is positional truths pertaining solely to "the Church which is His body" (which was His plan to have IN THIS time and place ["this present age [singular]"], and not referring to all other saints of all OTHER time periods [not the OT saints, not the Trib saints, not the MK saints]), similarly to what Ephesians 1:20-23 refers (which passage I am often pointing out or referencing in the eschatology-type threads):

Ephesians 1:20-23 [blb] -

20 which He worked in Christ, having raised Him out from the dead, and having set Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 above every principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this age [singular], but also in the [singular] one coming. 22 And He put all things under His feet [see also Heb2:8] and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of the One filling all in all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

1. No one is predestined for Heaven or for Hell.
2. All are required to hear the Gospel.
3. All are commanded to repent.
4. All are commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
5. All may be saved by obedience to the Gospel.
6. All may come to God through Christ by faith through the Gospel.
7. All are drawn to Christ by the triune Godhead.
8. Few will choose the narrow gate and the narrow way.
9. Many will refuse to believe the Gospel and thereby be damned.
10. There is a cost to being a disciple of Christ, up to and including loss of life.

All of this is supported by Scripture.

 

[Melach]

can it ever fail? if God predestinates something can it fail?

i can think of one example where due to people's disobedience they didnt get what was promised to them no strings attached initially. the strings attached was obedience and not striking the stone twice. in the book of samuel it also says saul went where the prophets were and became a changed man and fell into a trance. God made saul king. yet later God repented that He made saul king and said that if he would of obeyed the God, his throne would have been established forever.

this looks like its possible in some cases for God's predestination to not work if it relies on humans co-working with God. how does calvinism answer this?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ This is why I pointed out the two Greek words (in English both translated "called") found in Romans 8:28,30... (and to be compared with the text of Matthew 22:2-14 [where also both Greek words are used], although a different destination-point [the MK])… 8:28 uses "G2822" and 8:30 uses "G2562" (I supplied the actual words and definitions in the first post I put in this thread).


So "predestination" pertains to [is found in contexts regarding] believers/"the Church which is His body" (that they will have a certain/sure end). I do not believe it means He selected certain ones to be saved, and certain other ones to be damned.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to correct typo): should read "G2564" (not G2562)

 

[calibob]

^ This is why I pointed out the two Greek words (in English both translated "called") found in Romans 8:28,30... (and to be compared with the text of Matthew 22:2-14 [where also both Greek words are used], although a different destination-point [the MK])… 8:28 uses "G2822" and 8:30 uses "G2562" (I supplied the actual words and definitions in the first post I put in this thread).


So "predestination" pertains to [is found in contexts regarding] believers/"the Church which is His body" (that they will have a certain/sure end). I do not believe it means He selected certain ones to be saved, and certain other ones to be damned.

I don't think reading or speaking Greek, Latin, Hebrew or Aramaic is required for Salvation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't think reading or speaking Greek, Latin, Hebrew or Aramaic is required for Salvation.

It is not required, no, but it can help when one is speaking with a Calvinist who denies that anyone other than the elect [/chosen-to-be-saved, they say] are called, and who says that no one who is called can reject it. This is contrary to what the two passages I am pointing out (and their Greek words used) is/are saying.

 

[calibob]

It is not required, no, but it can help when one is speaking with a Calvinist who denies that anyone other than the elect [/chosen-to-be-saved, they say] are called, and who says that no one who is called can reject it. This is contrary to what the two passages I am pointing out (and their Greek words used) is/are saying.

That sounds like a cult to me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That sounds like a cult to me.

Do you mean me? or the Calvinist who says such things?

 

[calibob]

Do you mean me? or the Calvinist who says such things?

Not you but some of the things you said makes Calvinism sound quite cultish.

 

[calibob]

Is this true?
What is the Calvinist belief?
Calvinists believe that this atoning sacrifice was made for a definite group of people, the universal Church, which is defined as all the people that God has elected. Thus, Calvinists believe that Christ's death atoned for the sins of those who have been elected, and not for the sins of those who have not been elected.
Heiracy! Balderdash! Lies! Christ died once for all.
New International Version. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

 

[FollowHisSteps]

An incident that I found unusual. A phone in with a famous calvanist pastor from a young lady who
wondered whether she was one of the elect. The answer given was not rest on Christ, dwell on Him
and His sacrifice knowing how great is His love for those who call upon His name, and let ones heart
dwell in the Lord.

It was maybe you are not one of the elect. My experience of Christ is He works to show us His heart
and how deep His love is for us, and to learn how to trust Him, to commit everything to Him and know
His presence in our lives.

So if calvanists rest only on sense of conviction today determines ones destiny, then where is the growth
and dwelling in the Christ, or the growth in love and conviction. I know no one who just knows from day
one.

 

[Melach]

im beginning to think there arent any calvinists on this forum. its just us amongst ourselves saying calvinism seems terrible lolz

i promise we are not saying we disagree with malice or mean intentions

 

[Limey410v2]

All are predestined for Hell. The only reason life continues to exist is because of the elect, and the
gathering in of the faithful.

Men are born separate from God so doomed to Hell. If they never come to faith, that is their
destiny. Some claim it is unfair to doom everyone to hell because of how they are born, surely
all should be given a fair choice. But all are given a choice, it is the knowledge of good and evil,
and people choose evil.

Can anyone truly choose God without knowing anything about Him?
Paul argues that creation itself testifies to the creator so none have an excuse.

My impression is only those called by God who hear the word have a chance to know the way.
And clearly though many hear few respond and smaller still fewer find the way to where Christ
intended us to come.

The knowledge of good and evil is what started the problem in the first place. It is why we are born in to sin. Salvation makes us a new creation in Christ, no longer yearning for that knowledge, but only for the Spirit. With that said, the call goes out to all, everyone created and born to damnation will hear. Only a few will respond. Those that respond to the call are the elect. Why would God say that He wants all men to be saved, and that Jesus gave Himself as ransom for ALL, and then just only choose a certain few. That doesn't jive for me.

Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?

Why would God say that He wants all men to be saved, and that Jesus gave Himself as ransom for ALL, and then just only choose a certain few. That doesn't jive for me.

 

[Limey410v2]

im beginning to think there arent any calvinists on this forum. its just us amongst ourselves saying calvinism seems terrible lolz

i promise we are not saying we disagree with malice or mean intentions

There are plenty at last check. I am not one, but I do not believe that they are fully wrong, only that they see certain things differently than I might.

 

[GHClarkII]

All are predestined for Hell. The only reason life continues to exist is because of the elect, and the
gathering in of the faithful.

Men are born separate from God so doomed to Hell. If they never come to faith, that is their
destiny. Some claim it is unfair to doom everyone to hell because of how they are born, surely
all should be given a fair choice. But all are given a choice, it is the knowledge of good and evil,
and people choose evil.

Can anyone truly choose God without knowing anything about Him?
Paul argues that creation itself testifies to the creator so none have an excuse.

My impression is only those called by God who hear the word have a chance to know the way.
And clearly though many hear few respond and smaller still fewer find the way to where Christ
intended us to come.

Wrong. All who the Father gives to Jesus come, and all are raised up ate the last day. Read John 6

 

[Adelia]

I am not a Calvinist. I am not going to post all the scripture for and against. I do wonder if there is a middle of the road answer though. I mean that it can be a balance of both if there was not a far left and a far right mindset.