Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

[garee]

Garee,
I read again, and will post here, at least the main verses that you referred to earlier.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

It is recommended that anyone reading this also read the verses around 11&12 if for no other reason than re-familiarization. It is good to read the word of God pretty much any time it's mentioned.

I can see where you draw the conclusion that the people about which he is speaking are rebellious....especially where it concludes with "yet they would not hear". And it kinda makes sense that you reach the conclusion you reached.

What I would ask is that you consider a different viewpoint. (And compare it with what happens in Acts 2 to see if it fits).

Notice in Isaiah 28:11 WHO God said would be speaking?
And please consider what it means in 28:11 if God was speaking IN one person/group but TO a different person or group.

It would mean that the people speaking might not be the rebellious: they might actually be the obedient, because these verses happen during a portion of the chapter where he is trying to get the rebellious to see that there are people doing things in a different way than their own.

One point I'm making is that Isaiah 28 is not ONLY talking about rebellious people. (see verse 9 for example)

And the one supposition I hope you will consider is that perhaps it's not the rebellious who are speaking with stammering lips, but rather the obedient. And the rebellious happen to be the observers.


This would be supported by the Acts account(s).

In Acts, it wasn't the rebellious but rather the obedient who were speaking in tongues.

Also, in Acts 2 there is a clear declaration by Peter that "Hey guys, these guys aren't speaking this way because they're drunk(rebellious), they are speaking by (and exhibiting) the REST that was promised. And yet even when some see this miraculous thing occurring, and are told that THIS IS the rest/promise, they still rebel and kick against it.

Not only would this be consistent with the days and record of Acts, it has also been the case in current times.

= because people chose/choose to rebel against what God freely offers
= because God is faithful and told us in Isaiah that it would be this way

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Hi thanks for the reply . And yes more than once does God make it clear he is speaking to people who will not hear or refuse to believe in a God not seen .That sets the stage for the kind of sign.Some signs show a blessing, other confirm a curse. And is it repeated in 1 Corinthians 14 and yet for all that they still refuse to believe in a God not seen, re-establishing who the sign points to and what it does confirm (unbelief)

When God speaks he speaks to the multitude "all who hear his voice' Hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost. His word does not return void.... to some it builds on what they have been given and other taken away that which they do not have. He does not speak to groups .Groups form according to what they do believe. In this case those who refuse to hear God's word gather, together.

= unbelief, no faith
= Belief, faith
= Devine, source of faith

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.Isiah 28:12

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14: 21 22

 

[TLC209]

Please provide scripture that shows something other than tongues accompanying the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;
4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The stirring of the gift. This is the Holy Spirit. And it has attributes. Power Love and a Sound mind. Knows no fear. These are signs. There is also:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

I dont see tounges in there. I do know what happened at pentecost. The cloven tounge appeared to those who recieved the out pouring. But that was a sign for the jews. Unbelieving jews who murdered Jesus. Thinking he was just some man. But He wasnt. He is the King of Kings. He wants us to confess this in our tounge. Not any other tounge. They did that at pentecost for all those unbelievers to hear in their native languages.

I dont argue with God. He talks and I listen. He speaks through His Word. Those are some scripture to show what signs are of the Holy Spirit. And it doesnt include tounges. Or prophesying. Or even certain callings. We all have different callings and the Holy Spirit bestows gifts on who He may. But as a born again believer those are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

1)The doctrine of tongues is God's interpretation of whatever it is in view . Also why he has established it and what does the sign confirm? It would be a sign you understand the foundation of the doctrine.

Will you look to the foundation found in Isaiah 28 as to what it informs us ?

2)The dove represents the peace of Father and Son working together in perfect harmony to one another as the peace that surpasses our understanding.

3)Signs that follow. Not the kind the sign gift seekers seek after to confirm something ...Not knowing what it is that they are confirming .

What is it they are confirming?

Those who do believe God's prophecy through the manner of tongues like those 3000 plus souls (they were not seeking to confirm anything they showed the kind of sign not seen that follow. They will drink the poison of false prophecy and not be harmed. or they will be interested in sharing the gospel in, the language of God as it is written as a new tongue never before offering the gospel the same signs that followed after in Mark 16. they all represent the same thing God has spoken .

4) The Revelation of John confirms God has spoken.

5) Some people were forbidding the apostles bringing new prophecy after the manner of tongues. This is before we hade the perfect. Today God is not longer bring new prophecy after any manner to include tongues. Some who do walk by sight still desire to put on a show a sign to help them comfirm something.

6 ) Because there is no cherry picking with the word of God those who make a mockery of the word of God complain with deriding lips or stammering lip. For precept must be upon precept, comparing the spiritual unseen to the same (faith to faith) precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: The spiritual must be compared to the spiritual understanding. Yet for all that they still where the badge of unbelief as a sign proudly . No faith in God.

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isaiah 28:9-12

The sign of not hearing.

What do you say the sign confirms?

there are many signs in this thread people do not believe what the scripture plainly states

maybe those are the ones who are deaf and always learning but have no knowledge?

so many questions

 

[7seasrekeyed]

in defense of yourself that is what you do

you defend yourself

you excuse English not being your mother tongue when you get called on your sarcasm and retreat into 'poor little me'

if your Bible does not contain the fact that people spoke in tongues AFTER receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit then you have a bogus translation of some sort

you have no clue how many did or didn't speak in tongues because Paul only states all will not

then, he goes on to say that it should not be forbidden

you post in every thread on tongues and then try to say it's all new to you etc etc etc

the level of disingenuous posts by you is embarrassing

in every thread you state there is no such thing and then you enter another thread and pretend you are just trying to learn

I've certainly learned something about you

but you do forbid in your own life so go ahead

but you cannot have any effect on those who obey scripture

Well, i did not deny that people got the speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit. This is only in acts.
What I said is that nowhere in the bible this is taught!
You interprete the acts events, that it is taught. But the acts events in 2, 10 and 19 can be interpretet without to conclude that speaking in tongues is a sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, if you take tje text simply read as it is written.
And I said however it ends in the church. Because also the churchfathers did not speak in tongues.
The beginning to teach that speaking in tongues is a sign to got baptised with the Holy Spirit found in Topeka and Azusa in the beginning of the 20th century.
If you can show me where it was teached and practised before, please go ahead. ( out of cults)[/QUOTE]


oh please

you pretend that no one has already answered you multiple times about the same things

aren't you bored already?

or did you loose your notes?

 

[wolfwint]

Well, i did not deny that people got the speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit. This is only in acts.
What I said is that nowhere in the bible this is taught!
You interprete the acts events, that it is taught. But the acts events in 2, 10 and 19 can be interpretet without to conclude that speaking in tongues is a sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, if you take tje text simply read as it is written.
And I said however it ends in the church. Because also the churchfathers did not speak in tongues.
The beginning to teach that speaking in tongues is a sign to got baptised with the Holy Spirit found in Topeka and Azusa in the beginning of the 20th century.
If you can show me where it was teached and practised before, please go ahead. ( out of cults)

oh please

you pretend that no one has already answered you multiple times about the same things

aren't you bored already?

or did you loose your notes?[/QUOTE]

No😊 I wait till somebody can showed me where it is taught.
Yes, answers i got plenty. But not to my question.

 

[Wansvic]

2 Timothy 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;
4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The stirring of the gift. This is the Holy Spirit. And it has attributes. Power Love and a Sound mind. Knows no fear. These are signs. There is also:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

I dont see tounges in there. I do know what happened at pentecost. The cloven tounge appeared to those who recieved the out pouring. But that was a sign for the jews. Unbelieving jews who murdered Jesus. Thinking he was just some man. But He wasnt. He is the King of Kings. He wants us to confess this in our tounge. Not any other tounge. They did that at pentecost for all those unbelievers to hear in their native languages.

I dont argue with God. He talks and I listen. He speaks through His Word. Those are some scripture to show what signs are of the Holy Spirit. And it doesnt include tounges. Or prophesying. Or even certain callings. We all have different callings and the Holy Spirit bestows gifts on who He may. But as a born again believer those are the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures you reference do not concern receiving the Holy Ghost. One can only stir up a gift after one has received it. And, the Galatians scripture verses point to characteristics of the indwelling Spirit.

Not only did Jews receive the life giving message on the Day of Pentecost but Samaritans in Acts 8, Gentiles in Acts 10, and disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19. All of mankind consists of one or more of the three groups mentioned.
Peter stated ALL were to repent, be water baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost. The promise was not just for those present but for their children, and those afar off (in the future) EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD SHALL CALL. (Acts 2)

The Lord is still calling individuals and will continue to do so until the end of the age.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh please

you pretend that no one has already answered you multiple times about the same things

aren't you bored already?

or did you loose your notes?

No😊 I wait till somebody can showed me where it is taught.
Yes, answers i got plenty. But not to my question.[/QUOTE]


oh finally you admit you have answers you keep in your top bureau drawer

your questions have been answered multiple times

every

single

one

of

them

 

[TLC209]

The scriptures you reference do not concern receiving the Holy Ghost. One can only stir up a gift after one has received it. And, the Galatians scripture verses point to characteristics of the indwelling Spirit.

Not only did Jews receive the life giving message on the Day of Pentecost but Samaritans in Acts 8, Gentiles in Acts 10, and disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19. All of mankind consists of one or more of the three groups mentioned.
Peter stated ALL were to repent, be water baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost. The promise was not just for those present but for their children, and those afar off (in the future) EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD SHALL CALL. (Acts 2)

The Lord is still calling individuals and will continue to do so until the end of the age.

So what are you implying? I have the Holy Spirit and I offered the verses that speak on the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. But Im not sure what you are implying?

I personally believe you recieve it through laying of hands. As many verses speak of laying of hands. But as far as tounges it is only refrenced in the book of acts. The first out pouring. Those tounges were dialect. They were speaking languages. Thats why it says the recieve the cloven tounge. The speaking in tounges people do have no interpretation. So if they are heavenly languages as Paul says in Corinthians than I will not dispute that. But he also clarifies not all speak in tounges.

So my question to you is what are you implying?

 

[wolfwint]

No😊 I wait till somebody can showed me where it is taught.
Yes, answers i got plenty. But not to my question.

oh finally you admit you have answers you keep in your top bureau drawer

your questions have been answered multiple times

every

single

one

of

them

[/QUOTE]

Again, nobody was able to Show me where it is in the bible taught ( to other believers) that baptism with the Holy Spirit is combined with the speaking in tongues, ore the sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit is the Gift of speaking in tongues.
If Somebody does, i must overread it. Then Please be Patient with me and Show it me again.

 

[oyster67]

Again, nobody was able to Show me where it is in the bible taught ( to other believers) that baptism with the Holy Spirit is combined with the speaking in tongues, ore the sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit is the Gift of speaking in tongues.
If Somebody does, i must overread it. Then Please be Patient with me and Show it me again.

I don't know if any of us believe that everyone who has the Holy Spirit MUST speak in tongues. If some do, that is OK. Live and let live. We can still be brothers and love one another. Salvation through submission to Jesus and accepting His blood for atonement of our sins is the important thing. God bless you, bro Wolf.

 

[wolfwint]

I don't know if any of us believe that everyone who has the Holy Spirit MUST speak in tongues. If some do, that is OK. Live and let live. We can still be brothers and love one another. Salvation through submission to Jesus and accepting His blood for atonement of our sins is the important thing. God bless you, bro Wolf.

Thank you Bro Oyster, but this is not the point. The believe system of pentecostals and charismatics is build on their believe that speaking in tongues is the proof that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit. They take it from acts. 2,10 and 19 (Startet in 1901)
But nobody could show me from the scripture that this was taught to other believers. Even the often used 1. Cor. 12-14 dont teach it.

 

[garee]

there are many signs in this thread people do not believe what the scripture plainly states

maybe those are the ones who are deaf and always learning but have no knowledge?

so many questions

Yes there are signs that would lead a person to believe. Yet for all that they refuse to hear. The sign of God mocking (tongues) those mockers who refuse to believe in a God not seen .

Yet for all that they rather do whatsoever their own mouth says . If they desire to turn the curse over as a sign that confirms something else they do it.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21 22

What do you think the sign confirms? Those who do hear and believe or those who rather do wahtseover their mouth says . Like those in Jerimiah 44 :16-17 ? Once we confirm what the sign is and what it confirms then the rest of doctrine fits into place. But yet for all that they still refuse to believe in God not sen

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh finally you admit you have answers you keep in your top bureau drawer

your questions have been answered multiple times

every

single

one

of

them

Again, nobody was able to Show me where it is in the bible taught ( to other believers) that baptism with the Holy Spirit is combined with the speaking in tongues, ore the sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit is the Gift of speaking in tongues.
If Somebody does, i must overread it. Then Please be Patient with me and Show it me again.[/QUOTE]


nope

not to be rude, but multiple people have supplied that answer and many others to you

try reading through Acts where several instances happened

but why focus just on tongues?

try googling your question.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yes there are signs that would lead a person to believe. Yet for all that they refuse to hear. The sign of God mocking (tongues) those mockers who refuse to believe in a God not seen .

Yet for all that they rather do whatsoever their own mouth says . If they desire to turn the curse over as a sign that confirms something else they do it.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21 22

What do you think the sign confirms? Those who do hear and believe or those who rather do wahtseover their mouth says . Like those in Jerimiah 44 :16-17 ? Once we confirm what the sign is and what it confirms then the rest of doctrine fits into place. But yet for all that they still refuse to believe in God not sen

do you have the New Testament?

in particular, do you have the book of Acts?

in the New Testament it is written what you need to know

 

[Wansvic]

So what are you implying? I have the Holy Spirit and I offered the verses that speak on the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. But Im not sure what you are implying?

I personally believe you recieve it through laying of hands. As many verses speak of laying of hands. But as far as tounges it is only refrenced in the book of acts. The first out pouring. Those tounges were dialect. They were speaking languages. Thats why it says the recieve the cloven tounge. The speaking in tounges people do have no interpretation. So if they are heavenly languages as Paul says in Corinthians than I will not dispute that. But he also clarifies not all speak in tounges.

So my question to you is what are you implying?

My question to you: Please provide scripture that shows something other than tongues accompanying the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

Scripture shows that speaking in tongues accompanied the initial baptism of the Holy Ghost. The book of Acts is essential to understanding the birth of the NT church. It would be foolish to discount the instruction God provided in Acts; it paints a clear picture of what occurs when God fills one with His Spirit.

Acts 2:2-4
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Notice the cloven tongues appeared as fire sitting upon those present. This points to the fact that the Spirit entered into each person individually. There is a parallel in the OT. How did one know that God was present in the wilderness tabernacle? God produced a flame that dispelled the darkness. Christians realize that there very bodies are considered God's tabernacle/dwelling place today.

Your comment that Paul stated that not all speak in tongues was his reference to the Spiritual gift of tongues. This is separate from the the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost.

In addition, Jesus explained to Nicodemus how one knows an individual is born of the Spirit. He stated clearly that one cannot visibly see the Spirit, however, the Spirit can be heard when it comes:

John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

After receiving the Holy Ghost one can stir it, and its fruit should continue to manifest in believers lives.

 

[Wansvic]

Jesus states one will hear the Holy Spirit when one is born of the Spirit:
John 3:5
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[wolfwint]

Again, nobody was able to Show me where it is in the bible taught ( to other believers) that baptism with the Holy Spirit is combined with the speaking in tongues, ore the sign to be baptised with the Holy Spirit is the Gift of speaking in tongues.
If Somebody does, i must overread it. Then Please be Patient with me and Show it me again.

nope

not to be rude, but multiple people have supplied that answer and many others to you

try reading through Acts where several instances happened

but why focus just on tongues?

try googling your question.[/QUOTE]

You are jokeing. Lol nobody could show me that. And you too did not show me that.
There is no single vers (out of acts 2,10 and 19 which were onetime events with a special purpose) that speaking in tongues is the proof that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
This teaching begann with the pentecostal movement in 1901.

And again, please show me in the scripture that this was taught to the believers.

 

[wolfwint]

Jesus states one will hear the Holy Spirit when one is born of the Spirit:
John 3:5
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You know that this was an example?
Ore would you claim now, that everyone who did not hear the Holy Spirit is not born again??

 

[Waggles]

But as far as tounges it is only refrenced in the book of acts.

Fake news!! A completely false assertion.
How about some honesty from you.

 

[Wansvic]

You know that this was an example?
Ore would you claim now, that everyone who did not hear the Holy Spirit is not born again??

Jesus often used parables to explain concepts to people who did not understand.