144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

TheDivineWatermark · Apr 23, 2019

Scripture doesn't say the 144,000 are the "only" ones "saved" (and I'm not sure, but I don't think Nehemiah6 was suggesting that either). It says they are "firstfruit to God and to the Lamb" (which I've said in past posts that I believe this parallels Leviticus 23:17 re: the "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" and which are "the firstfruit UNTO THE LORD" [Lev23:17; like Rev14:4]... in the "WHEAT harvest" [distinct from two other "harvests"]). And their being "firstfruit" indicates there are many more that follow in THIS particular "harvest," not just them alone (the "firstfruit" of THAT harvest). This is how I see that.

dcontroversal · Apr 23, 2019

Lafftur said:

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

Lafftur · Apr 23, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

Makes perfect sense to me! Absolutely agree with you. It lines up with the way God does things.

At first our flesh doesn’t like it but, our spirit knows it is true.

Thank you for sharing it with us again!

dcontroversal · Apr 23, 2019

Lafftur said:

I had pondered them and ALL that has been said about them....one day while studying and writing the book on the second coming I was pondering them and pacing and rolling things over in my head and the light bulb came on.....regardless of the fact this is what I believe.....it does make sense and makes more sense than ANYTHING I have ever heard in my 52 years with 45 of that being in church......and for sure if it is not correct...JESUS will correct me.....

Lanolin · Apr 23, 2019

It just says they are the first fruits. I dont have a problem with them being male virgins as clearly later their is a marriage supper where they will meet the bride.
I was reading the seven churches of revelation and Jesus does promise to some they will wear a crown, and be clothed in white robes if they overcome.

Spoonjuly if you dont want to discuss this topic then just go onto other threads. Dont allow me to waste YOUR time. You are the one replying but you dont even have to! I really dont get why someone would go on to a thread and then complain when someone else wants to study or ask something bible related. Nobody is forcing you to read all the threads on ths forum, much less respond to them.

Thank you to everyone else who is looking up scriptures relating to this. It is good to know and understand deeper.
With the elders, there being 24 of them, would it just be the 12 patriarchs plus the 12 apostles. If its future, then what happens to all the OT saints. For example, are joseph and benjamin included but what about ruben, judah, simeon...etc are the actual patriarchs included or is it just representatives of those tribes. I imagine they had a lot of descendants. Im wondering if the nation of israel currently is only including Judah (because its a jewish state) or whether all the other tribes will be gathered. It is not listed in exact birth order, as reuben is not first, even though he was firstborn. But thats because of his actions.

Lafftur · Apr 23, 2019

dcontroversal said:

It’s from the Lord. God desires for us to have truth in our inner parts.

Remember Mary would ponder everything in her heart, not her head.

Luke 2:19
But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

That day when you pondered about the 144,000, it was your heart that was seeking to know and understand, not your head.

Yes, your mind and head were also engaged but, it was a deep desire in your heart to know and understand. Your heart was leading and your head was following.

God pays very close attention to our hearts. We find God, we find Truth when we seek Him with ALL our heart, not our head.

What a wonderful Truth God has given you, and it has blessed me tremendously!!!

Keep pondering and sharing with all of us!

.

Lanolin · Apr 25, 2019

Lafftur said:

Hmm I not sure about that.
Does it not say they learn a new song. I was thinking it was more the young soldiers inthe israeli army who can be the only ones learning the new song (a national anthem?) that could only be in their langauge, nobody else could learn it. I read Numbers and, well its all about NUMBERs of the different tribes they all need to be numbered and all have assigned special duties at the tabernacle. One group to carry this, another group to carry that, some to look after the vessels, another to set up the curtains.

For this group, they follow the lamb wherever they go...in Numbers, the Israelites followed Moses wherever He went, who in turn followed the pillar of fire by night and the cloud by day.

As for it being after tribulation, well looking at scripture this group doesnt seem to be the ones that come out of great tribulation...its the other group, the ones without number, the multitudes of nations and tongues that the elders ask 'where did they come from?'

Lanolin · Apr 25, 2019

Looking at Numbers chapter one the tribes were all named and numbered, except their numbers werent all equal, and the only one that wasnt numbered was the Levites, because they were appointed to look after the tabernacle at all times. The Levites were assigned to do this instead of the firstborns of each tribe.

So it seems a similar scenario is shown in revelation. The difference being the number of tribes all equal, and the ones assigned to be the kings and priests may be the multitudes in white robes.
Further in revelation it shows the walls of the new Jerusalem are exactly 144,000 cubits, I suppose one cubit for each man.

SpoonJuly · Apr 25, 2019

Lanolin said:

Seems you misunderstood my post, and that may be because I was not clear.
The point I was trying to make is this---
There are some things/subjects in Scripture that a lot is not revealed to us.
What we know about the 144,000 and the 24 Elders is told to us in Revelations and to my knowledge they are not mentioned in any other Scripture.
We should study and know and understand what is revealed, but in my opinion, to spend a lot of time trying to find info that is not revealed, or to speculate about things that are not revealed is wasting a persons time that could be better spent studying other subjects that we do know everything that is revealed.

Just as I suspected, there were some who came on the thread and offered their opinion as FACT.

dcon offered what he believed and offered good reasons why he believed it, but did not say it was a FACT and that is the way it should be.

As for me, I believe what is revealed, and I just leave it there and move on to other subjects.
That is me. You have the right to do as you please, it is you time.
If I offended by my post, I am sorry. was not my intent.

Deade · Apr 25, 2019

Adstar said:

You are right on the money Adstar. Rev 14:5 says they are without fault before the throne of God. Which is a symbolic representation: everything is before the throne of God.

Rev. 7:1-4 “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation we are told about 144,000 people. This concerns a physical, living group of people. They will be of the bloodline of their respective Israelite tribes. We are given detailed explanation in Rev. chapter 14: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:1-4).

These are children or young adults, because they are virgins. It wouldn’t make sense to stop the seals unless God were saving flesh and blood humans. God could let them just die, like the rest of the saints; and let them become spirits upon Christ's return. These are younger people that God will allowed to start the millennial rule. They seem to have the Holy Spirit. That makes them exceptions of being changed into spirits at Christ's coming. They are to be planted into their tribes’ original lands for the start of the millennial rule. Remember, Ezekiel wrote after the ten northern tribes were long gone.

We see their inheritance being defined for a future time: "Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan. And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher. And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali. And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben. And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah. And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it" (Ezekiel 48:1-8). God then explains the land set aside for the priests (sons of Zadok) in verses 9-22.

Next, it lists the rest of the tribes’ inheritance: "As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion. And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion. And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion. And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion. And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion. And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea. This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God. And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures" (Ezekiel 48:23-30). The time reference for this, is after the healing waters flow from God's temple in Jerusalem (see Ezekiel chapter 47). This, of course, is after the Day of the Lord and Jesus’ return. With all the detail, it must be very important to God for us to get this right.

Waggles · Apr 25, 2019

Personally I believe the 144,000 represents the Spirit-filled church that has remained faithful to Acts 2:38 and
has not embraced the seduction of other faiths/denominations: Spiritually virgins faithful to the Bridegroom.
The absence of Dan represents those who were called but failed, and departed from the faith once delivered to the saints.

Didymous · Apr 25, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

An interesting thought, and certainly no more unlikely than many others. I like it!

Ahwatukee · Apr 25, 2019

Waggles said:

Hello Waggles,

There is no reason to apply any other interpretation, neither symbolic, nor spiritual, to the 144,000, as we are given their identity right in the scripture, which is stated as being 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, not the church. The fact that each tribe out of Israel is mentioned would tell us that they do not represent the church. The 144,000 are the first fruits who will come out of the woman (unbelieving Israel), who are those who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.

In addition, the 144,000 will be sealed during first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period, which is during the time of God's wrath. Therefore, the church could not be here during that time because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and therefore must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened.

To say that the 144,000 is representing the church would be pure conjecture, seeing that it states clearly that they are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. And just because Dan is missing in the list, is no reason to apply a spiritual meaning to it.

Ahwatukee · Apr 25, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

Greetings azamzimtoti,

They are first fruits not in regards to chronology, but first fruits as those out of the twelve tribes who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, opposed to unbelieving Israel, i.e. those belonging to the nation Israel who did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The "what must take place later" is future, taking place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period. During this time, there will be a group of 144,000 who will belong to the twelve tribes of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as being their Messiah. This is what is meant by "first fruits." The Jews who have believed from the onset of the church until now belong to the church. However, the woman of Revelation 12 is going to give birth to a Male Chile, which is a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of Israel, i.e. gives birth to.

This is a future event

Waggles · Apr 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

But Revelation is highly spiritual and symbolic language representing real history concerning the Church and the Jews (Judah).
As for your interpretations on Revelation I find them to be highly speculative and incorrect.

Ahwatukee · Apr 25, 2019

Waggles said:

That Revelation is highly spiritual and symbolic, is an on-going false teaching!

While it is true that there is obvious symbolism in Revelation, much of it is to be interpreted in the plain, literal sense. The misinterpreting of Revelation as purely being symbolic is the crux of the problem, where the reader ignores the literal meaning and replaces it with symbolism and allegories. The proper way to read Revelation is that, if the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. In other words, if there is nothing in the context to suggest a symbolic or spiritual meaning, then don't seek one.

Let's test your quote above against what the word of God says:

"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

=======================================

Q: Who are the servants being sealed?
A: 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel

Q: How many from each tribe
A: 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes as listed

Now, the word "church" is nowhere mentioned in the context? No! Therefore, the only way that you can make this group as referring to the church is by ignoring who scripture says they are.

The church has not replaced Israel! They are different dispensations, each with different programs.

God has unfinished prophecy regarding them, specifically, that last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon them. And that for the purpose "to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place." This decree has not been completed, but will be fulfilled after the church has been removed. Once the church is gathered, then God will pick up right where He left off with Israel, complete with a temple and sacrifices.

Let's stop being blown around by every wind of doctrine.

Waggles · Apr 25, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Again completely wrong. False teaching.
Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled long ago when Messiah came and went, and the second temple was destroyed by Titus.

Ahwatukee · Apr 26, 2019

Waggles said:

Really? so, you think that the seven year covenant was established, that the abomination was set up in the middle of the seven causing the desolation of Jerusalem and that transgression has been finished, sin has been brought to its end for Israel, that wickedness has been atoned for, everlasting righteousness has been brought in, vision and prophecy has been sealed up and the Most Holy Place has been anointed? I shouldn't have to answer any of that.

A little hint, Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the seven years to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and that surely hasn't happened.

You're just repeating the teachings of men. That's all.

Lafftur · Apr 26, 2019

Lanolin said:

The four walls that surround the New Jerusalem are only made up of Jews - NO GENTILES.

Perhaps the 144,000 are the WALL of the New Jerusalem..... interesting......

Today, only the Wall stands in Jerusalem........ they call it the "walling wall" ..... interesting...

Lafftur · Apr 26, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Ahwatukee, in my own study and prayer I have come to believe that actually, Yeshua/Jesus fulfilled the first 3 and a half years of the seven year tribulation. His ministry started at 30 years of age and ended at 33 1/2 years

We are actually in the "mid-trib" period. The anti-christ will also get 3 1/2 years and finish the 7 years of tribulation.

Just as John the Baptized proclaimed the Messiah, the false prophet will proclaim the anti-christ.

The false prophet and anti-christ will mirror John the Baptist and Yeshua/Jesus. They will be second cousins and the anti-christ will be 30 years old when he enters the public arena. He will also be 12 years old, when Satan enters him and he becomes about his "father's" business.

144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

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