Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[dcontroversal]

Bible interpretation is NOT about symbolism. Some things are meant to be taken literally. Jesus birth, death and resurrection, for example! Salvation by grace through faith. And so on!

But the Bible is so much MORE than a book of facts to be taken literally!

It is the history of how God planned for his Son to be the atonement for our sins!

Understanding the Bible depends on genre, that is, is it a poem, a parable, a prophecy or a literal account of something?

It is so important to remember the Bible was written to people who lived thousands of years ago, with different languages, culture and ways of living. It also was written to us, but secondarily. The Bible is universal, it transcends space and time, but we need to look at each passage to see what the ancients thought first! And, that is not easy, for anyone, including scholars.

Then, the pages of the Bible must be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, also within the framework of context. The first thing we should ask ourselves, is how did the original audience understand this passage before we start grabbing verses out of context and stringing them together with other out of context verses, to make doctrine.

And language is so important! I would go so far as to say, it is nearly impossible to take the "plain meaning" of the text without understanding the original languages, the time and culture. I have seen too many people in this forum make wrong conclusions based on the English text, where there are errors, or it simply is very difficult to be translated from the parent language into English, because of simple things like the word order being radically different in Greek than in English.

Finally, self study is wonderful! We should all do it! But we should be humble, and read many viewpoints about a passage or topic. Sometimes that kind of home study leads to arrogance and pride. I studied and read the Bible for 25 years. When I went to seminary, I learned more about rational and reasonable ways to study the Bible in a few months, as opposed to 25 years of misguided study. I'm grateful every day God gave me so many tools at seminary, to really dig deep, into his Word!

I'm not saying we will all agree on everything. But, your hermeneutical principles are simplistic at best, sketchy and don't work on the other hand! That is what is causing you to think your studying is more valuable and closer to the truth, than any one of the rest of us, including my 38 years of Bible study.

Eschatology is a very difficult topic, one we won't truly understand until Jesus returns and judges us all! To say we have all the answers, especially based on a poor hermeneutic, is arrogance and pride at its worst. We simply do not have all the answers, but God does!

I look forward to the parousia or second coming. But, not a third coming, an invisible coming, nor a temple that the book of Hebrews totally refutes! Jesus died once for all! No temple or sacrifices needed! Regardless of what the Jews think is needed for the coming of Christ. God is in control, not a group of people who have rejected Jesus!

The plain meaning of the text is that Jesus literally died on the cross for our sins, so that we might enter into a relationship with God, having been forgiven our sins!

AMEN>>>>>>>The saved, lost religious, every tribe, kindred and EYEBALL that can see will see him coming in the clouds with power and great glory just as he left.......WAS, IS, IS TO COME.......his body presence and our gathering is VISIBLE, NOT imminent and just LIKE lightning WILL BE SEEN BY THE ENTIRE PLANET...........when numerous events have taken place...then we can LOOK UP for our redemption draws NIGH.........those things HAVE not happened as of yet

 

[dcontroversal]

yes but dont you curious at all about how it all happens? isnt it interesting to you?

if we cant know anything why does the bible talk so much about prophecy? it doesnt say us to just wait and see, we can only know after its over like you said

it said look these things.

We can know......for every one prophecy of his 1st coming there are 8 that deal with his PAROUSIA <----BODY presence and our gathering together unto him A.K.A. 2nd COMING.........

 

[dcontroversal]

MANY of us have studied the end for 30 plus years......that does not in any way, shape or form make us CORRECT......The Pharisees studied their WHOLE LIFE and GOT it wrong...................

I know what I am talking about <--------does not = truth and or being correct!!!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Bible interpretation is NOT about symbolism. Some things are meant to be taken literally. Jesus birth, death and resurrection, for example! Salvation by grace through faith. And so on!

But the Bible is so much MORE than a book of facts to be taken literally!

It is the history of how God planned for his Son to be the atonement for our sins!

Understanding the Bible depends on genre, that is, is it a poem, a parable, a prophecy or a literal account of something?

It is so important to remember the Bible was written to people who lived thousands of years ago, with different languages, culture and ways of living. It also was written to us, but secondarily. The Bible is universal, it transcends space and time, but we need to look at each passage to see what the ancients thought first! And, that is not easy, for anyone, including scholars.

Then, the pages of the Bible must be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, also within the framework of context. The first thing we should ask ourselves, is how did the original audience understand this passage before we start grabbing verses out of context and stringing them together with other out of context verses, to make doctrine.

And language is so important! I would go so far as to say, it is nearly impossible to take the "plain meaning" of the text without understanding the original languages, the time and culture. I have seen too many people in this forum make wrong conclusions based on the English text, where there are errors, or it simply is very difficult to be translated from the parent language into English, because of simple things like the word order being radically different in Greek than in English.

Finally, self study is wonderful! We should all do it! But we should be humble, and read many viewpoints about a passage or topic. Sometimes that kind of home study leads to arrogance and pride. I studied and read the Bible for 25 years. When I went to seminary, I learned more about rational and reasonable ways to study the Bible in a few months, as opposed to 25 years of misguided study. I'm grateful every day God gave me so many tools at seminary, to really dig deep, into his Word!

I'm not saying we will all agree on everything. But, your hermeneutical principles are simplistic at best, sketchy and don't work on the other hand! That is what is causing you to think your studying is more valuable and closer to the truth, than any one of the rest of us, including my 38 years of Bible study.

Eschatology is a very difficult topic, one we won't truly understand until Jesus returns and judges us all! To say we have all the answers, especially based on a poor hermeneutic, is arrogance and pride at its worst. We simply do not have all the answers, but God does!

I look forward to the parousia or second coming. But, not a third coming, an invisible coming, nor a temple that the book of Hebrews totally refutes! Jesus died once for all! No temple or sacrifices needed! Regardless of what the Jews think is needed for the coming of Christ. God is in control, not a group of people who have rejected Jesus!

The plain meaning of the text is that Jesus literally died on the cross for our sins, so that we might enter into a relationship with God, having been forgiven our sins!

Once again, It does not matter if you are a greek scholar or not (there are well known and respected scholars on both sides of the argument by the way)

The one thing that trumps all is the type of language being used

Is it prophetic?
Is it teaching a spiritual point using known things (allegory or what jesus did when he spoke in parables)
Is it instructive (the law)
Is it historical

Prophetic language ALWAYS speaks of God, letting mankind know of an even or series of events which will occurs in the future.

While God did use some symbols in these words (one example is the king od babylon being the head of Gold, or the Lion) the nation (babylon) was a literal nation. And what was said about that nation literally took place, even how that nation would end. And who would come next.

Using daniels prophetic scripture as an example to make my point. All 4 of the gentile kingdoms were literally fulfilled to every detail, with the exception of parts of the last or roman empire (the toes mixture of iron and clay, or the final gruesome beast) of which in revelations we are given even more characteristics, Of which as of yet has not been fulfilled.

Using precedence to interpret those prophecies. since the first three were LITERALLY fulfilled. And parts of the 4th were LITERALLY fulfilled over a time period of many centuries. It goes to reason that what has not yet been fulfilled will ALSO be fulfilled literally.

Even Christ, a lot of what was told about him and the suffering servant were literally fulfilled in the first advent, Again, using precedence, if those things were literally fulfilled. Then so will the rest (remember, he also read a prophecy and stopped in the middle of the reading, and said those things have been fulfilled. It goes to reason then that the rest will be literally fulfilled also (they have not yet come)

So we are not just making things up to hget our belief, we are using logical historical precedence of all known prophesies which have come true concerning the messiah, the gentile nations, and the nation of Israel which have literally come true, and using that to interpret what has not yet come true

Verses the opposing view, which takes what has happened proven as literal. And takes what has not happened literally and make it symbolic. Which I must be honest, goes AGAINST precedence, and makes no sense at all.

Again, Being a greek or hebrew scholar does not help, because their are well respected scholars on both sides of the argument.

 

[UnderGrace]

yes but dont you curious at all about how it all happens? isnt it interesting to you?

if we cant know anything why does the bible talk so much about prophecy? it doesnt say us to just wait and see, we can only know after its over like you said

it said look these things.

But these things have happened, is it right look for something that is not going to happen again?

 

[Melach]

But these things have happened, is it right look for something that is not going to happen again?

what??

all the prophecy has happened? not so
i still see sin and death everywhere.
i still see nations war against nation
i still see false doctrine, false religions, world rulers, i still see music and movie industries corrupt the next generation by nikki minaj and others into twerking zombies.

i dont think all prophecy has happened. these things have not happened. i can prove it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But these things have happened, is it right look for something that is not going to happen again?

Only if they have really happened

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well said, in your Post #264, eternally-gratefull, agreed!

 

[UnderGrace]

@eternally-gratefull @dcontroversal @crossnote

I know I have to respond to question, I will try to get to them.
With regards to this .......

The fact that he indicates that NO FLESH would be left alive in and of itself points to an event way greater that the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D..........and....if it would have been indicative of 70 A.D. JESUS should have returned in the late 60's so as to preserve flesh..........

Why is it greater....do you know 1.1 million Jews were killed, it was a blood bath.
People were butchered on the spot for no reason, not matter the age.
Caesar's soldiers went into a frenzied rage in their detestation of the Jews
The corpses were piled at the alter.
A stream of blood flowed down the Temple steps.
The city was engulfed in flames

I can go on and on, there was also cannibalism because the armies surrounded the city for three years and the Jews were eating each other.
These were the people that rejected their sent Messiah 40 years earlier a true generation.

I am sure that God did step in for the sake of the elect.

Josephus' account appears in: Cornfield, Gaalya ed., Josephus, The Jewish War (1982); Duruy, Victor, History of Rome vol. V (1883).

 

[UnderGrace]

what??

all the prophecy has happened? not so
i still see sin and death everywhere.
i still see nations war against nation
i still see false doctrine, false religions, world rulers, i still see music and movie industries corrupt the next generation by nikki minaj and others into twerking zombies.

i dont think all prophecy has happened. these things have not happened. i can prove it

Well this thread may go for at least "an age" and maybe we can reveal the fulfilled scriptures true to God's word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@eternally-gratefull @dcontroversal @crossnote

I know I have to respond to question, I will try to get to them.
With regards to this .......



Why is it greater....do you know 1.1 million Jews were killed, it was a blood bath.
People were butchered on the spot for no reason, not matter the age.
Caesar's soldiers went into a frenzied rage in their detestation of the Jews
The corpses were piled at the alter.
A stream of blood flowed down the Temple steps.
The city was engulfed in flames

I can go on and on, there was also cannibalism because the armies surrounded the city for three years and the Jews were eating each other.
These were the people that rejected their sent Messiah 40 years earlier a true generation.

I am sure that God did step in for the sake of the elect.

Josephus' account appears in: Cornfield, Gaalya ed., Josephus, The Jewish War (1982); Duruy, Victor, History of Rome vol. V (1883).

Ok

Still not worse than millions upon millions of people who were slaughtered in ww 1 and ww 2 from all nations.

And still does not show how all “flesh” (jesus words) Would be threatened, so for the sake of the elect 9what elect in ad 70?) he would cut that time short and return, putting and end to it.

I see what your saying sis. But can you see what I am asking? And why I ask those questions?

 

[UnderGrace]

Ok

Still not worse than millions upon millions of people who were slaughtered in ww 1 and ww 2 from all nations.

And still does not show how all “flesh” (jesus words) Would be threatened, so for the sake of the elect 9what elect in ad 70?) he would cut that time short and return, putting and end to it.

I see what your saying sis. But can you see what I am asking? And why I ask those questions?

Mr EG....context yes....these were the actual Jews who refused to acknowledge their long awaited Messiah.

Not sure what you are asking me, are you thinking "all flesh" goes beyond the Jews?

 

[Melach]

Well this thread may go for at least "an age" and maybe we can reveal the fulfilled scriptures true to God's word.

what?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WW1 Killed, wounded, and missing
The casualties suffered by the participants in World War I dwarfed those of previous wars: some 8,500,000 soldiers died as a result of wounds and/or disease. The greatest number of casualties and wounds were inflicted by artillery, followed by small arms, and then by poison gas. The bayonet, which was relied on by the prewar French Army as the decisive weapon, actually produced few casualties. War was increasingly mechanized from 1914 and produced casualties even when nothing important was happening. On even a quiet day on the Western Front, many hundreds of Allied and German soldiers died. The heaviest loss of life for a single day occurred on July 1, 1916, during the Battle of the Somme, when the British Army suffered 57,470 casualties.


Sir Winston Churchill once described the battles of the Somme and Verdun, which were typical of trench warfare in their futile and indiscriminate slaughter, as being waged between double or triple walls of cannons fed by mountains of shells. In an open space surrounded by masses of these guns large numbers of infantry divisions collided. They fought in this dangerous position until battered into a state of uselessness. Then they were replaced by other divisions. So many men were lost in the process and shattered beyond recognition that there is a French monument at Verdun to the 150,000 unlocated dead who are assumed to be buried in the vicinity.


This kind of war made it difficult to prepare accurate casualty lists. There were revolutions in four of the warring countries in 1918, and the attention of the new governments was shifted away from the grim problem of war losses. A completely accurate table of losses may never be compiled. The best available estimates of World War I military casualties are assembled in Table 4.

Similar uncertainties exist about the number of civilian deaths attributable to the war. There were no agencies established to keep records of these fatalities, but it is clear that the displacement of peoples through the movement of the war in Europe and in Asia Minor, accompanied as it was in 1918 by the most destructive outbreak of influenza in history, led to the deaths of large numbers. It has been estimated that the number of civilian deaths attributable to the war was higher than the military casualties, or around 13,000,000. These civilian deaths were largely caused by starvation, exposure, disease, military encounters, and massacres.

Total estimated losses

13,000,000 civilians
8,500,000 military

21,500,000

21 millions deaths estimated across multiple countries


WW2

World War 2 was the bloodiest conflict in human history. There were more than 60 million World War 2 casualties resulting in death which at the time was more than 2.5% of the overall world population. The war was notable for the Nazi-sponsored genocide of the Jewish peoples resulting in more than 5.9 million deaths, and the impact of “Total War” on the world’s population.

So lookin at the wars

According to josephus, 1.1 million jews in ad 70

According to historical reports.

Ww1 - 21.5 million people.

WW2 from 70 - 80 million, up to 5.9 million jews (5 times greater than AD 70)

So as we can see, even in jewish casualties, the war in AD 70 did not even come close to being as severe or a greater tribulation than WW1 or WW2.

Also. In all three cases, all flesh were not in any danger of being killed off. Causeing the need for Jesus to put an end for the sake of the elect. To return. (This was not possible until the soviet and us nuclear arsenals grew to a point we can actually wipe all life off the earth today)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mr EG....context yes....these were the actual Jews who refused to acknowledge their long awaited Messiah.

Not sure what you are asking me, are you thinking "all flesh" goes beyond the Jews?

Yes, and more jews, who STILL denied their messiah were killed in WW2

All flesh means all flesh. (All living creatures) Jesus never said it was just in jerusalem. He said ALL flesh would die UNLESS he cut the tribulation short.

He is talking about an extinction event/

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Luke 21:32 states [AFTER the things spelled out in v.24!! key here!], "this generation shall not pass away, TILL ALL be fulfilled" (including that of v.24!)

I've quoted Wm Kelly before on this point, but I think it is beneficial in this thread too:

[quoting]


"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had [JUST!] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new [future] generation, the generation [yet] to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."

--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]


[keep in mind that "the TIMES of the Gentiles" (Lk21:24b) is distinct from "the FULNESS of the Gentiles" (Rom11:25); the former started in 606bc with Neb's "image/statue" with Neb as "head of gold," representing "Gentile domination over Israel" (which lasts through to the end of the trib, per Rev11:2); whereas the latter ("FULNESS of the Gentiles") is a wholly distinct issue]

 

[crossnote]

@eternally-gratefull @dcontroversal @crossnote

I know I have to respond to question, I will try to get to them.

I can wait 'til you first answer mine .

 

[dcontroversal]

@eternally-gratefull @dcontroversal @crossnote

I know I have to respond to question, I will try to get to them.
With regards to this .......



Why is it greater....do you know 1.1 million Jews were killed, it was a blood bath.
People were butchered on the spot for no reason, not matter the age.
Caesar's soldiers went into a frenzied rage in their detestation of the Jews
The corpses were piled at the alter.
A stream of blood flowed down the Temple steps.
The city was engulfed in flames

I can go on and on, there was also cannibalism because the armies surrounded the city for three years and the Jews were eating each other.
These were the people that rejected their sent Messiah 40 years earlier a true generation.

I am sure that God did step in for the sake of the elect.

Josephus' account appears in: Cornfield, Gaalya ed., Josephus, The Jewish War (1982); Duruy, Victor, History of Rome vol. V (1883).

Did JESUS come in 70 A.D.....NO.......it is applicable unto the end of the age.............and who was JESUS addressing in Matthew, Mark and Luke? NOT the JEWS.....HIS DISCIPLES which were called the CHURCH in the present context at least twice

and actually he told them to FLEE to save themselves during the Roman siege.......

I know we agree on many things, but I can tell you.....70 A.D. did not, yeah does not satisfy all the prophecy mentioned in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13......

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, and more jews, who STILL denied their messiah were killed in WW2

All flesh means all flesh. (All living creatures) Jesus never said it was just in jerusalem. He said ALL flesh would die UNLESS he cut the tribulation short.

He is talking about an extinction event/

INDEED...SATAN and MAN'S wrath upon man......when the DESTROYER ( ABADDON/APOLLYON) WALKS THE EARTH WHILE KNOWING HE HAS BUT A LITTLE TIME LEFT.....Katie bar the door.....If JESUS does not step in for our sake (the elect) there will be NO FLESH left alive.........

A truth overlooked.....The Jerusalem church was persecuted and went every where preaching the word......they were never in danger of the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem which was aimed at the Hyper religious Zealots and JEWS that were bound up in the city.....

 

[azamzimtoti]

One of the problems I see for those that deny a 1st century return of Christ is this:

(Heb 9:28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.)

(Heb 10:37For just a little longer and he who is coming will arrive and not delay.)

The above clearly states a return in "just a little longer " and will "not delay ".