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S
SpoonJuly
Guest
If one studies Thessalonians closely, Paul praises them for the way they endured persecutions and TRIBULATION.
I find it odd that so many expect to escape tribulation today.
I continue to here "God will never let his church suffer during the coming tribulation" as if the church today is so much more righteous than those Saints.
I find it odd that so many expect to escape tribulation today.
I continue to here "God will never let his church suffer during the coming tribulation" as if the church today is so much more righteous than those Saints.
S
SpoonJuly
Guest
The story of Joseph was really put there to explain to all of us the link between the Grace dispensation, Rapture, Tribulation and 2nd coming. Genesis 41
42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, “Bow the knee!” So he set him over all the land of Egypt. 44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” 45 And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name [h]Zaphnath-Paaneah. And he gave him as a wife Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On. So Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
46 Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt. 47 Now in the seven plentiful years the ground brought forth [i]abundantly. 48 So he gathered up all the food of the seven years which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities; he laid up in every city the food of the fields which surrounded them. 49 Joseph gathered very much grain, as the sand of the sea, until he stopped counting, for it was immeasurable.
50 And to Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, whom Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On, bore to him. 51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn [j]Manasseh: “For God has made me forget all my toil and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called [k]Ephraim: “For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
53 Then the seven years of plenty which were in the land of Egypt ended, 54 and the seven years of famine began to come, as Joseph had said. The famine was in all lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. 55 So when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread. Then Pharaoh said to all the Egyptians, “Go to Joseph; whatever he says to you, do.” 56 The famine was over all the face of the earth, and Joseph opened [l]all the storehouses and sold to the Egyptians. And the famine became severe in the land of Egypt. 57 So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain, because the famine was severe in all lands.
The names of his 2 sons by the Egyptian wife speaks of how Jesus is comforted by his Gentile church during the Jews rejection of him.
42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, “Bow the knee!” So he set him over all the land of Egypt. 44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” 45 And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name [h]Zaphnath-Paaneah. And he gave him as a wife Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On. So Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
46 Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt. 47 Now in the seven plentiful years the ground brought forth [i]abundantly. 48 So he gathered up all the food of the seven years which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities; he laid up in every city the food of the fields which surrounded them. 49 Joseph gathered very much grain, as the sand of the sea, until he stopped counting, for it was immeasurable.
50 And to Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, whom Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On, bore to him. 51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn [j]Manasseh: “For God has made me forget all my toil and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called [k]Ephraim: “For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
53 Then the seven years of plenty which were in the land of Egypt ended, 54 and the seven years of famine began to come, as Joseph had said. The famine was in all lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. 55 So when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread. Then Pharaoh said to all the Egyptians, “Go to Joseph; whatever he says to you, do.” 56 The famine was over all the face of the earth, and Joseph opened [l]all the storehouses and sold to the Egyptians. And the famine became severe in the land of Egypt. 57 So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain, because the famine was severe in all lands.
The names of his 2 sons by the Egyptian wife speaks of how Jesus is comforted by his Gentile church during the Jews rejection of him.
- Manasseh means ‘God has made me forget all my hardships’;
- Ephraim ‘God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortunes'
I can see that you don't understand the significance of the dispensation of Grace for the Gentiles.
S
SpoonJuly
Guest
The story of Joseph was really put there to explain to all of us the link between the Grace dispensation, Rapture, Tribulation and 2nd coming. Genesis 41
42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, “Bow the knee!” So he set him over all the land of Egypt. 44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.” 45 And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name [h]Zaphnath-Paaneah. And he gave him as a wife Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On. So Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
46 Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt. 47 Now in the seven plentiful years the ground brought forth [i]abundantly. 48 So he gathered up all the food of the seven years which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities; he laid up in every city the food of the fields which surrounded them. 49 Joseph gathered very much grain, as the sand of the sea, until he stopped counting, for it was immeasurable.
50 And to Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, whom Asenath, the daughter of Poti-Pherah priest of On, bore to him. 51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn [j]Manasseh: “For God has made me forget all my toil and all my father’s house.” 52 And the name of the second he called [k]Ephraim: “For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
53 Then the seven years of plenty which were in the land of Egypt ended, 54 and the seven years of famine began to come, as Joseph had said. The famine was in all lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. 55 So when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread. Then Pharaoh said to all the Egyptians, “Go to Joseph; whatever he says to you, do.” 56 The famine was over all the face of the earth, and Joseph opened [l]all the storehouses and sold to the Egyptians. And the famine became severe in the land of Egypt. 57 So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain, because the famine was severe in all lands.
The names of his 2 sons by the Egyptian wife speaks of how Jesus is comforted by his Gentile church during the Jews rejection of him.
Indeed, us Gentiles in the glorious church of Jesus Christ has comforted him so much during this grace dispensation, and we look forward to the rapture where he will finally call us home.
- Manasseh means ‘God has made me forget all my hardships’;
- Ephraim ‘God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortunes'
Proverbs 16:18
Proverbs 11:2
Proverbs 8:13
My understanding of the revelation of the Bible is metaphorical.
cuz Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied untill John(John of the Baptist).
I think. The seven angels in revelation represent
Proverbs 6
16 These six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven are an abomination unto Him:
17 a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
The seven angels correspond to these seven detestable things,If you understand it this way, then you can have a good understanding of the meaning of the scripture.
( a false witness that speaketh lies btw,The liars here represent those who do not believe in God, as well as those who are in sin.)
revelation 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
The seven heads here still correspond the seven detestable things . Proverbs 6:16-19
seven crowns on his heads that represents the crimes committed by these seven evils..
revelation 12:4-5
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
The battle between the woman and the dragon represents sin disobeying God's word.
And the meaning of 1/3 which is everyone , cuz all men have sinned . Everyone is guilty.
To understand it this way,a city has three walls.Two walls have been breached.All the people can only flock to the innermost wall.
There were 1/3 people living in the innermost wall, but now there are all the people.
So the meaning of revelation here is clear, and God still wants to save everyone.
The disposition of grace for the gentiles is exactly the grace as grace was at creation.
Paul was made the disciple to the gentiles, Paul did not change God in any way. We were given an improved covenant, that better covenant did not change God or grace in any way.
No one knows exactly how it will be for us in the last days. God told exactly how it would be when Christ came and scholars sifted through all that was told of it and they did not understand. They did a lot of assuming. We are told a lot about the last days and you can bank on that no one truly understands. Before Christ came, it was best for scholars to simply trust God and be open to how God chose to act. It is best today for scholars go stop assuming and simply trust and follow God.
At least explain how you connect these verses to my explanation, if you want to make a point
If you don't accept that the original timetable for Gentile salvation was after the Jews collectively accept Jesus as their Messiah, then naturally you will believe that nothing has changed. That is your personal belief and I am fine with that. I believe differently.
Here are some examples of that original timetable in the OT
Zechariah 8 explains
3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’
Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)
20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”
A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.
Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus has the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.
Finally, when Jesus was on Earth, he also said this to the Samaritan woman
John 4:22 New Living Translation (NLT)
22 You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews.
What I state is not my personal belief it is what the Lord knows. I don't tell God how I reasoning Him to be, I let the Lord tell me.
You are giving proof texts for my belief that God is the same now and forever. The Jews knew scripture, the gentiles didn't. Gentiles came into leadership of the church and decided they were hot bananas and Jews weren't so they started teaching these changes when bible states that God doesn't.
Oh yah, I almost forgot, you are one who sincerely believes that you are only reading the Bible "as it clearly says", and thus anyone who reads it differently from you must be "reading into the Bible".
Okay then.
You make me sound arrogant and ignorant like that saying my way or the highway. It bothers me to be told that my salvation and knowing God is something that is only my belief. It is like telling me that I only believe I live in my home, others can see it differently.Oh yah, I almost forgot, you are one who sincerely believes that you are only reading the Bible "as it clearly says", and thus anyone who reads it differently from you must be "reading into the Bible".
Okay then.
I don't see how the scriptures telling us that the Jews will be looked to as anything except that they will be looked to. It doesn't say that after they accept Christ THEN it will happen. When God chose someone to take the salvation message to gentiles, God chose a Pharisee rabbi to do it, when Paul accepted Christ he didn't wipe out his memory of God and all he had learned about what he thought was the coming messiah as a Pharisee and all about the attributes of God. Paul users the OT as proof texts. When you learn from Paul, you are learning from a Jewish rabbi who accepted Christ.
If we looked to the Jews today we would accept all the OT tells us, and we would accept all the NT tells us.
As we would be led by both testaments, we would know what exactly Christ and Pentecost replaced, but did not change the spirit of. It does not mean that we would look to the Jews to lead us to Christ, Scripture tells us they are blinded to an understanding that Christ is the messiah they look for.
Suppose Noah didn't build the ark. Do you think God would have enabled him to dog paddle all that time? Man was, after all, being punished for disbelief and disobedience.
And consider the possibility that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.
You have to reach an age when you finally realized that many truths we hold, are only because we view them from a certain perspective. I think I heard this first when Obiwan Kenobi told Luke in Return of the Jedi about Darth Vader being his father and yet killed his father.
This means, we should always be humble in the many truths we hold, other people may view from a different perspective and if we say they are wrong without considering that we might also be wrong, that is arrogance.
The Apostle Paul was told many mysteries by the ascended Christ Jesus, that none of OT saints were aware. Zechariah, Micah and even Isaiah was not told the mystery of the Rapture, the church etc. All these were kept hidden from them.
So when they wrote those prophecies, they expected all the Gentiles to be reached only after all the Jews accepted Jesus, But now, it is clear the timetable has changed, us Gentiles are now being reached, even while the Jews as a nation rejected Jesus.
You have to reach an age when you finally realized that many truths we hold, are only because we view them from a certain perspective. I think I heard this first when Obiwan Kenobi told Luke in Return of the Jedi about Darth Vader being his father and yet killed his father.
This means, we should always be humble in the many truths we hold, other people may view from a different perspective and if we say they are wrong without considering that we might also be wrong, that is arrogance.
The Apostle Paul was told many mysteries by the ascended Christ Jesus, that none of OT saints were aware. Zechariah, Micah and even Isaiah was not told the mystery of the Rapture, the church etc. All these were kept hidden from them.
So when they wrote those prophecies, they expected all the Gentiles to be reached only after all the Jews accepted Jesus, But now, it is clear the timetable has changed, us Gentiles are now being reached, even while the Jews as a nation rejected Jesus.
Well, I'll be 94 in May, it is about time I have reached an age.
At the age of 70 I met a woman who told me I was very mistaken about what I thought I knew of the Lord because I had about memorized the NT yet the OT only bewildered me. She convinced me so I went to work. I was retired and alone, study is what I did all day. My rule for myself was to search for facts and not opinions or interpretations. It was like untangling a knotted rope.
I don't think even the men given scripture to write down understood all of what they were led to write. At the time the prophecies were written the Jews would have nothing to do with gentiles, they were even firmly against them accepting the God who they felt belonged to them alone.
The gentiles are now falling away from the Lord, not being reached to be closer. The work of my Grandkids takes them to Asia and Europe to live months at a time. They have a hard time finding a church in most countries. You cannot recognize who belong to the Lord and who doesn't by how they live in today's world. You can find on line the records of what happened at all the church councils. I spent a lot of time looking them up to compare what they decided with scripture. It is alarming, and makes clear we need to toss out traditions in church to make it a Christian church.