Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank Mr. Divine

So we need to see if the promises made to Israel have been fulfilled...that seems to be part of the whole dispensational view.

So, one example of it would be what I'd put in the second half of the bracketed section of a previous post (#564), here:

https://christianchat.com/threads/a...chance-to-state-your-case.184571/post-3916785

 

[iamsoandso]

Lets see there's 120 jubilees and 50 years in a jubilee,,,ahh but nobody follows Jubilees or Enoch but the Jewish people like the disciples and so lets use modern English instead to figure it out.

 

[azamzimtoti]

70 AD was only a physical fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy that the temple would be destroyed. That prophecy required a literal fulfillment. It was also a spiritual fulfillment and sign of Jesus' redemptive power because it halted the sacrifices and made any component of Mosaic Law literally impossible to follow or obey.

Prophecy always requires a literal, testable, provebale fulfillment. It is never fulfilled only in a spiritual way. That would violate prophecy we know has already been fulfilled, and fulfilled in literal ways that agree 100% with a given text. When it is stated that when Jesus comes back, He will return in the same way He left, and every eye will see Him, it means exactly that. So we know Jesus didn't come back in 70 AD.

Splitting hairs between physical and literal. I already pointed out that Peter claimed a spiritual fulfillment:

It seems to me the "term" spiritualizing gets thrown around while failing to see that Peter did exactly that in Acts regarding David's throne/tent.

(Acts 15:16-17 After this I will return, and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord, namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,' says the Lord, who makes these things)

The above is from Amos:

(Amos 9:11 "In that day I will rebuild the collapsing hut of David. I will seal its gaps, repair its ruins, and restore it to what it was like in days gone by.)

The Gentiles were being called "my own" when Peter stated the above, therefore the only conclusion is Peter is claiming a "spiritual" fulfillment of Amos. Now I'm not saying that all prophecies should be "spiritualized", but Peter has set a precedent here.

He further states that David's throne is heavenly and not earthly:

(Acts 2:30 So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne)

(Acts 2:33 So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear.)

(Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, 'The Lord said to my lord, "Sit at my right hand.) etc.

Amillennialists try to force the word "this" in verse 34 as applying to the Disciples, therefore, Jesus had to return before the Disciples died. Jesus is not speaking of that generation in verse 34. It is clear from the wording that He is speaking of the events He has just laid out beginning in verse 15. The generation that sees those things can anticipate Jesus' return at that time. You don't have a time of distress in 70 AD that has been unequalled since, so there is no way that the generation of the Disciples can be the generation Jesus is speaking to. That is just basic hermeneutics. Jesus is speaking of a future generation that will experience the events He lays out. Jesus never directly answered the Disciples when they asked Him when He was going to return and establish His Kingdom. because His return was going to be in the range of the future that they would not understand.

"You don't have a time of distress in 70 AD that has been unequaled since"

Depends how you view this, this was God's nation, God's city and God's temple, so in this sense there will never be such as "time of distress" such as that as the destruction of the nation, city, temple and covenant ever. Read Josephus for a view of how bad it got in the war back then.

Taking one line such as you have in an attempt to bifurcate the "physical" fulfillment and the "literal fulfillment is an arbitrary "hermeneutic".

 

[UnderGrace]

Splitting hairs between physical and literal. I already pointed out that Peter claimed a spiritual fulfillment:






"You don't have a time of distress in 70 AD that has been unequaled since"

Depends how you view this, this was God's nation, God's city and God's temple, so in this sense there will never be such as "time of distress" such as that as the destruction of the nation, city, temple and covenant ever. Read Josephus for a view of how bad it got in the war back then.

Taking one line such as you have in an attempt to bifurcate the "physical" destruction and the "literal fulfillment is an arbitrary "hermeneutic".

Agree 70 AD was horrific according to historical records, and in context no city has dealt with such horror, I trust what Jesus states.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 (scrutinize these and decide)...

then you can see that verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE all these "beginning of birth pangs") the 70ad events must occur ("BEFORE" them!), vv.12-24 [the 70ad events]

(the 70ad events, INCLUDING v.24's "shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be..."). THEN, Matt24 starts out with those very "the beginning of birth pangs" (and unfolds from there; and ENDS with, not a scattering of them, but a gathering together of them!)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thank Mr. Divine

So we need to see if the promises made to Israel have been fulfilled...that seems to be part of the whole dispensational view.

Not really

What we need to see is How long God said the promises would take place.

In doing so. We see they were ETERNAL promises.

We can then see in Lev 26 requirements for ENJOYING those promises. Obey be blessed. Disobey be Punished. But then repent, and obey. Be blessed

Then we see in OT prophesies that Israel will disobey. And because of that her land will be laed waste and she will be scattered. Then she will be restored AFTER she repents.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agree 70 AD was horrific according to historical records, and in context no city has dealt with such horror, I trust what Jesus states.

Oh boy. Again, WW 1 and 2 made 70 ad look like a picnic. I am amazed that you are fighting this TRUTH.

The tribulation was always said to be worldwide, Not just in jerusalem. In fact, Israel was said she would be SAVED from that tribulation (also known as the time of Jacobs trouble)

7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

That is the PURPOSE of the tribulation. To bring Israel to repentance. And bring in TRUE peace to all the earth. Making an END of all gentile kingdoms (rule)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 (scrutinize these and decide)...

then you can see that verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE all these "beginning of birth pangs") the 70ad events must occur ("BEFORE" them!), vv.12-24 [the 70ad events]

(the 70ad events, INCLUDING v.24's "shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be..."). THEN, Matt24 starts out with those very "the beginning of birth pangs" (and unfolds from there; and ENDS with, not a scattering of them, but a gathering together of them!)

They forget that matt 24 speaks of three events. The last one being stopped by the return of Christ himself because if he did not return, no flesh would survive.

 

[Journeyman]

Alrighty then buddy.

World ends for people when they come to faith in Jesus. And remember it says this PLAINLY. Yup thats as plain as it can get.

Spiritually speaking, yes. It's very plain....For ye are dead Col.3:3

Did you notice that you kind of took that out of context? The Galatians verse has NOTHING to do with eschatology? Whoopsy.

Knowing Jesus or not knowing him, is the only factor that matters concerning our final state, which is eschatology, so you are wrong.

Look, if you want to know some details about the WORLD TO COME, read Revelation 21, it describes the new earth and heaven and guess what, it mentions nothing about it coming when people "come to faith".

The conditions are: NO PAIN, NO TEARS, NO DEATH, NO SORROW. Doesn't sound like the present time now dont it?

Without Christ it doesn't.

made us alive together with Christ....and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph.2:5

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Thes.4:13

 

[Journeyman]

Yeah.......I suggest you actually study the O.T. prophecies concerning that time frame pal.....you can lip flap bs all you want....does not change the facts on the ground and or the O.T. prophecies....LIKE I said..you have a lot to learn

Children dying at 100 years doesn't speak of a time in the future. It's speaks of our perception of life in this world after coming to know the Lord.

For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Jas.4:14

Compared to eternal life, 100 years is like an infant dying, or a sinner being accursed Isa.65:20

Wow....he lived a long time! Not really.

 

[dcontroversal]

Like

Children dying at 100 years doesn't speak of a time in the future. It's speaks of our perception of life in this world after coming to know the Lord.

For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Jas.4:14

Compared to eternal life, 100 years is like an infant dying, or a sinner being accursed Isa.65:20

Wow....he lived a long time! Not really.

I said...you have alot to learn....especially about prophecy......try again........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Children dying at 100 years doesn't speak of a time in the future. It's speaks of our perception of life in this world after coming to know the Lord.

For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Jas.4:14

Compared to eternal life, 100 years is like an infant dying, or a sinner being accursed Isa.65:20

Wow....he lived a long time! Not really.

That is prophesy, Not a parable

So when it says the children will die at 100. it means they will die at 100

 

[Journeyman]

Like

I said...you have alot to learn....especially about prophecy......try again........

eternally-grateful said
That is prophesy, Not a parable

So when it says the children will die at 100. it means they will die at 100

He's speaking of how those in Christ view this temporary life,

Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth and mine age is as nothing before thee Psa.39:5

And they shall build houses Isa.65:21 Believers are building their houses now....

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a Rock: Mt.7:24

 

[dcontroversal]

He's speaking of how those in Christ view this temporary life,

Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth and mine age is as nothing before thee Psa.39:5

And they shall build houses Isa.65:21 Believers are building their houses now....

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a Rock: Mt.7:24

Not hardly pal.......try again and this time just be honest with the scripture.........I bet you believe women will be saved by having kids as well.........seeing how honesty, context and truth are too allusive for you......

Just for you....

But she will be saved through childbearing, if they abide in faith and love and holiness, with self-restraint.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is prophesy, Not a parable

So when it says the children will die at 100. it means they will die at 100

Just another cake taker EG........a total aversion to the truth in favor of some spiritualized away rejection of the truth......a waste of time

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not see how they think they can get away with this? Nor do they see how they tarnish Gods name and reputation.

 

[Melach]

do you brethren believe in book of enoch? i read it now a little and it looks to have some prophecies correct about last days. its not bible

 

[iamsoandso]

just be careful which one Jesus and the apostles only quote the first one.

 

[Journeyman]

Not hardly pal.......try again and this time just be honest with the scripture.........

I have been sharing scripture. Look at the verse you're referring to,

for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isa.65:20

Is the child who dies at 100 also a sinner?

I bet you believe women will be saved by having kids as well.........seeing how honesty, context and truth are too allusive for you......

No, I don't believe all mothers are saved.

Just for you....

But she will be saved through childbearing, if they abide in faith and love and holiness, with self-restraint.

1Tim.2:15 refers back to Eve,

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen.3:16

Paul symbolically compares the woman to the church (Gen.2:24, Eph.5:31), which is saved by her marriage to Christ. It isn't just bearing children. It's Who she's bearing them to,

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living Gen.3:20....But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal.4:26

 

[Journeyman]

I do not see how they think they can get away with this? Nor do they see how they tarnish Gods name and reputation.

Get away with what?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pet.3:10-11

Get away with what? Telling people that unrepentant sinners WILL NOT CONTINUE FOR ANOTHER 1000 YEARS AFTER JESUS APPEARS IN PERSON?

The "thousand years reign" is very simple to understand when we consider how Jesus destroyed the last enemy....death.