Not By Works

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M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,761
Dec 27, 2018
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#99,761
dcontroversal said:
AMEN........perseverance = self effort..........

per·se·ver·ance
/ˌpərsəˈvirəns/
noun
persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success.
"his perseverance with the technique illustrates his single-mindedness"
synonyms:persistence, tenacity, determination, resolve, resolution, resoluteness, staying power, purposefulness, firmness of purpose; More
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You mean like this?

Acts 14:22- Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Continue Emmeno-
  1. to remain in, continue
  2. to persevere in anything, a state of mind etc.
  3. to hold fast, to be true to, abide by, keep

Hebrews 3: 6- But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hold fast- Katecho-
  1. to hold back, detain, retain
    1. from going away
    2. to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
      1. that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
      2. to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship
    3. to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
  2. to get possession of, take
    1. to possess

Now Hebrews 3:6 is not saying we will be Christ's house if we hold fast, it is saying we will hold fast if WE ARE Christ's house. Get it?

It is not prescribing the act of holding fast in order to be Christ's house, it is describing Christ's house as those who hold fast, or describing "those who hold fast" as the ones who are Christ's house

DESCRIBING, not prescribing. ;)
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#99,762
#99,762
God forbid any of us are in reprobated minds. That is a scary thought.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,763
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
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#99,763
KnowMe said:
God forbid any of us are in reprobated minds. That is a scary thought.
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A reprobate mind is one that rejects God. ie- "they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, therefore God turned them over to a reprobate mind. People who know God do not have a reprobate mind. (see 1 John 2:3)
 
theanointedwinner

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
#99,764
Nov 6, 2018
2,058
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#99,764
Eternal security does not mean "sin all you want"

The existence of sin does not mean loss of salvation

Do we have an agreement?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,765
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
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#99,765
theanointedwinner said:
Eternal security does not mean "sin all you want"

The existence of sin does not mean loss of salvation

Do we have an agreement?
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1,000 percent in agreement. It also does not mean Christians CAN sin all they want. That is diametrically opposed to the Bible's teaching of Grace in Titus 2:11-15

Those who do not deny ungodliness have not learned from Grace. (Titus 2:11)
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#99,766
Apr 7, 2014
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#99,766
Macabeus said:
Now Hebrews 3:6 is not saying we will be Christ's house if we hold fast, it is saying we will hold fast if WE ARE Christ's house. Get it?

It is not prescribing the act of holding fast in order to be Christ's house, it is describing Christ's house as those who hold fast, or describing "those who hold fast" as the ones who are Christ's house

DESCRIBING, not prescribing. ;)
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Yes, DESCRIBING not prescribing. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. *Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast to Christ." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrew Christians who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who held fast the confidence and hope firm to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. (y)
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,767
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#99,767
mailmandan said:
Yes, DESCRIBING not prescribing. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. *Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast to Christ." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrew Christians who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who held fast the confidence and hope firm to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. (y)
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Amen. Someone who has a correct understanding of security. :):):):):):):)...and the difference between a descriptive statement and a prescriptive one. (y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)

I hope you don't mind that I highlighted the point of contention (with some) in red.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,768
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#99,768
mailmandan said:
Yes, DESCRIBING not prescribing. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. *Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast to Christ." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrew Christians who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who held fast the confidence and hope firm to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. (y)
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Best post I have ever read in this thread. By light years. Everyone needs to heed this post by Mailmandan, because it is sound, and it is completely faithful to the biblical teachings of Grace.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#99,769
#99,769
KnowMe said:
This statement is very profound in my opinion

Matt 7:23
22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

these folks thought they where saved they did miracles, drove out demons, prophecies, and who would not think they where saved if doing all these things, yet He plainly says depart from me.

looking at this below the lawlessness in my opinion is not doing these things.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
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As I have said I’m not for the once saved always saved theory those folks in the verses above believed that as well yet they were not.

the topic born in sin came up and I think we should never feel comfortable in our own skin that is dangerous

I think we should always look at areas where we can improve, we won’t be perfect but we can strive to be so,

So we don’t end up like the ones who do miracles, prophecies, drove out demons and they were comfortable in their skin yet it was the power of the name Jesus that was actually what did those things not the person.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#99,770
Jan 18, 2011
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#99,770
KnowMe said:
As I have said I’m not for the once saved always saved theory those folks in the verses above believed that as well yet they were not.

the topic born in sin came up and I think we should never feel comfortable in our own skin that is dangerous

I think we should always look at areas where we can improve, we won’t be perfect but we can strive to be so,

So we don’t end up like the ones who do miracles, prophecies, drove out demons and they were comfortable in their skin yet it was the power of the name Jesus that was actually what did those things not the person.
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I heard a pastor say this many years ago- " birds fly overhead, we can't do anything about that. sinful and temptation thoughts come, we can't do anything about that.

but, in the same way you do not have to build a nest and put out food for the birds to stay at our house, we do not have to make sinful thoughts and desires comfortable and invite them to stay' ( paraphrase ).
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,771
Dec 27, 2018
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#99,771
KnowMe said:
As I have said I’m not for the once saved always saved theory those folks in the verses above believed that as well yet they were not.

the topic born in sin came up and I think we should never feel comfortable in our own skin that is dangerous

I think we should always look at areas where we can improve, we won’t be perfect but we can strive to be so, we don’t end up like the ones who do miracles, prophecies, drove out demons and they were comfortable in their skin yet it was the power of the name Jesus that was actually what did those things not the person.
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We are fully justified and declared righteous, blameless, and holy before God, and then we begin learning to walk in that reality, progressively growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus, all the while secure in His Grace, kept by the power of God through faith, even though, of course we are not yet perfect.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#99,772
Feb 15, 2017
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#99,772
KnowMe said:
Indeed and my opinion being accountable is saying if I don’t get my act together and fly straight I will loose that salvation and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth., for I have forsaken His teachings.
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Then are you not working for something that has been freely given through faith?
You can't lose your salvation by not doing and can't earn it by doing.
Salvation is as a result of faith.
Then we will do as a result
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#99,773
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
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#99,773
BillG said:
Then are you not working for something that has been freely given through faith?
You can't lose your salvation by not doing and can't earn it by doing.
Salvation is as a result of faith.
Then we will do as a result
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Yes, the doing COMES AFTER faith, regeneration, full and free Justificaton, adoption, and positional sanctification which all are gifts that are received by faith alone and not of works. Preservation and glorification are received by faith as well.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
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#99,774
gb9 said:
I heard a pastor say this many years ago- " birds fly overhead, we can't do anything about that. sinful and temptation thoughts come, we can't do anything about that.

but, in the same way you do not have to build a nest and put out food for the birds to stay at our house, we do not have to make sinful thoughts and desires comfortable and invite them to stay' ( paraphrase ).
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I agreee like that teaching in the Bible where the driving out one demon from the house and many more come back to the point where the mind is engulfed with thoughts of sin or even thoughts of doing everything right that can’t be healthy either no one is good but God.

No doubt none of us can run from temptations even Jesus was tempted, they will come from time to time but it’s important not to act on them, I guess we have to say to ourselves get away satan your a stumbling block, maybe even every minute of a day if needed to rid the house of demons.
 
K

KnowMe

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#99,775
BillG said:
Then are you not working for something that has been freely given through faith?
You can't lose your salvation by not doing and can't earn it by doing.
Salvation is as a result of faith.
Then we will do as a result
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In your opinion what was it that they were not doing, what kind of lawlessness were they doing?

That is honest question I’d like to know what was it?

Matt 7:23
22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
#99,776
#99,776
Macabeus said:
We are fully justified and declared righteous, blameless, and holy before God, and then we begin learning to walk in that reality, progressively growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus, all the while secure in His Grace, kept by the power of God through faith, even though, of course we are not yet perfect.
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Well I’m not good and righteous, so I guess I’m out of luck.
 
Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

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May 3, 2017
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#99,777
dcontroversal said:
HAHAHHAHAHAHHA hilarious my brother from another mother across the pond......if you ever get on this side we need to have a cup of coffee HAHA
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Do not forget if you come over here , we shall be having tea & scones , with clotted cream and real strawberry jam ;)...xox...
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
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Feb 15, 2017
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#99,778
KnowMe said:
In your opinion what was it that they were not doing, what kind of lawlessness were they doing?

That is honest question I’d like to know what was it?

Matt 7:23
22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
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Jesus said "I never knew you"

They were doing great things and boasted about it.
One has to ask why.
I think it was for personal gain and to get the credit.

Not doing it to the Jesus the glory.

If Jesus did not know them then he is saying you do not know me.
Therefore no relationship.
 
BillG

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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#99,779
KnowMe said:
Well I’m not good and righteous, so I guess I’m out of luck.
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Luck has nothing to do with it.
Do you know that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus?
It's true, Jesus said it.

You are the apple of his eye.
 
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