What Pentecostal denomination does NOT believe in the initial evidence doctrine?

[KelbyofGod]

Thank you! That is what I was thinking of, but where is it? I have looked in 1&2 Peter but cannot find it.

Acts 2:38-39 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I am trying to remember a scripture that tells us the gifts of the Spirit are for all generations.

I will get back to you when I remember. Just to say God is eternal and so are His gifts to those who seek them.

I'm guessing you may also be referring to Ephesians 4:8-13

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (<--That is saying what he gives) [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (<--this is saying why they are here) [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (<--This is saying how long these gifts will be here)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Didymous]

I would be one that would say that speaking in tongues is necessary (because everyone needs to be able to worship the Father in spirit as well as truth) to a person's face. But I also know it is available (pretty much for the asking) to anyone who wants it. Hence, it is not an insurmountable problem when you get God involved.

But that's the thing... it takes God's involvement.

Kinda like a miraculous healing.. that also takes God's actual involvement. And a lot of people might not know how to get that to happen.

And it's scary when someone says "you MUST have God's involvement, not just your own thoughts/beliefs"...especially if the church they were raised in didn't teach how that works.

There's a reason why half of the biblically recorded accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost required the laying on of hands before it was given. The individuals needed the extra help. The same holds true today.


I know that's not a direct answer to the OP's original question about churches. But I don't directly know of any specific ones, as I live in a more rural area.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

This isn't true. .Jesus does the baptizing, and doesn't need any help.

 

[KelbyofGod]

oops... didn't realize I wasn't on the last page. *sheepish grin*.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[RickyZ]

I'm guessing you may also be referring to Ephesians 4:8-13

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (<--That is saying what he gives) [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (<--this is saying why they are here) [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (<--This is saying how long these gifts will be here)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

And the fullness of Christ is the perfect to come!

 

[KelbyofGod]

This isn't true. .Jesus does the baptizing, and doesn't need any help.

It's not God that needs the help. It's us.

Laying on of hands does something...which is part of the reason he warns us against doing it "suddenly".

1 Timothy 5:22 KJV
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

And the fullness of Christ is the perfect to come!

Indeed!

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

This isn't true. .Jesus does the baptizing, and doesn't need any help.

This is a request that you think about a concept, not a point of argument....

Are pastors needed because God has an inability to speak, or because we have a lack in our ability to hear and need someone to help us out?

How about the gifts of healing (or any miracle 'done' by any prophet/righteous man for someone)... is it because God was unable to do it for the recipient directly... or because the recipient may have needed some help... and God provided assistance through somebody who was more able to receive directly?

And I would suggest that Ninevah was a city of "more than six score thousand" persons who were failing to spend enough time with God to hear his voice directly...so God was kind enough to send someone who had learned to hear God's voice.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Later by 500 the Athanasian Creed and the Nicine creeds were written. The creeds state the beliefs required to be a Christian. Anything outside of them is to agree to disagree. Anything contrary to them is heresy!!

My opinion is that the bible tells us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" not to lean on the "workings out" of some several groups of people that the bible doesn't even mention as needed in the formula.

I'm not sure how to soften that statement but I pray it is receivable.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Many mocked said they were drunk but it was used to draw people in and 3000 were saved and added to the church.

This same thing happens today... just as Jesus said:

"I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you" (Jesus IS the comforter / Holy Ghost)

Luke 12:51-53 KJV
Suppose ye that I [the Holy Ghost] am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: [52] For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. [53] The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[CS1]

This isn't true. .Jesus does the baptizing, and doesn't need any help.

actually, Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit as the gospels

Matt 3:11, Mar 1:8, Luke 3:16, and John 1:33 all say so.

 

[Waggles]

But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have

Why are you so opposed to correct doctrine?
Why do you think there is salvation in choosing a more worldly friendly way?
Ought you not be concerned as to what is acceptable and approved of by God?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:

 

[PS]

I'm guessing you may also be referring to Ephesians 4:8-13

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (<--That is saying what he gives) [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (<--this is saying why they are here) [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (<--This is saying how long these gifts will be here)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Well done you. Have you noticed how much information we are given in just a few words. We really do need to think about these things much longer and deeper than we do. Thank you for that.

 

[garee]

It's not God that needs the help. It's us.

Laying on of hands does something...which is part of the reason he warns us against doing it "suddenly".

1 Timothy 5:22 KJV
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I think suddenly means working it through explaining to all the witness the ceremonial uses of hands as a metaphor to represent the unseen work of God. We have the privilege knowing God heals without the use of Human hands . not as some say he needs flesh to heal flesh as if he who satisfies all needs needed something from the clay he is forming the seed of Christ in. Those who seek after a sign before they exercise faith seem quick to make it into a wonderment . They could be moving to fast not a way to make the morning last Like Simon and Garfunkel pick up a couple stones or time will pass you by. Feeling groovy has turned into feeling groupies. Like looking for something to hear . Jesus says the fields are white.

I would think we would not want anyone think that the showing of ceremonial shadows used as a gospel sign to the world shows the kingdom does come by observation . Our focus is on a hope of them knowing Him not seen a work he works in us and causes growth if any. .The church His bride are representatives of God, as Ambassadors sent from the Holy unseen place. ( the eternal city of Christ) as His bride. He called Christian . A word when defined and no other meaning added . that literally means; "residents of the city of Christ" named after her founder, husband Christ. A revealing of a righteous desire that it might be his will . But we do not need evidence of the things seen to believe in him who has no form . Its why he created form of language and wrote his law with his finger in stone so we could fill the prescription given in 2 Corinthians 4:18

Laying on of hands is a great ceremonial law if done carefully and prayerfully. I have witnessed it. If misunderstood and abused it can become a source as a stumbling block, making the work of Christ without effect. This is by attributing it to a "sign gift".

When the apostles experienced that in Acts (men making the apostles into gods in the likeness of men ) they covered themselves in ashes .They would be no part of blaspheming the Holy Spirit . As some men do when they attribute the healing of God with a little touch of human corrupted flesh. Their hand touching them had nothing to do with the healing. We walk by faith. Our flesh is considered or typified as dead it will return to the lifeless, spiritless dust and H20 from where it was formed of. Our new born again spirits will rise on the last day when we then receive the goal of our faith our new incorruptible bodies as the eternal wife of Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Above...Our 20/20 prescription needed to rightly divide the parables.

Note...(my addition )

For the Jews require a sign, (sign gift) and the Greeks seek after wisdom:(philosophy) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Corrihtians 1:22-23

 

[garee]

Why are you so opposed to correct doctrine?
Why do you think there is salvation in choosing a more worldly friendly way?
Ought you not be concerned as to what is acceptable and approved of by God?

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel
7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:

Correct doctrine according to what? What some would call busting a move? like Hammer time, time to fall back.?

Have you investigated, by following the prescription in Corinthians.... comparing the spiritual understanding to the same spiritual understanding (faith to faith )?

Have you studied the doctrine "yet for all that they refuse to hear me" as those who receive no rest from God? .But rather do whatsoever their own mouths say ( oral traditions of men's imagination) and turn the signs that confirm their unbelief (no faith) into one that does confirm their source of faith .."their own selves" ( the trinity me, myself and I) after the imaginations of a deceitful heart(.natural man) . A great builder upper of pride.

The faith we have is not of ourselves unles any man turn things upside down and turn curses into blessing . vice versa. Calling evil good and good evil .We must be careful how we hear . Many name it claim it voices crying out; "Have you ever been experienced" .

Sounds like Jimmy Hendrix mind set. Magic carpets don't be late. . Hotel California's a lovely place to check in, plenty of room but hard to get out like a old comfy mattress. I would say we never out grow the need of putting away childish things.

Isaiah 28:12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet "they" would not hear.

1 Corinthians 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will "they" not hear me, saith the Lord.

Luke 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

So I am in line with most pentecostal teachings. I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation(although there could be some fluidity to that) and I believe the gifts are for today. But I disagree with the classical pentecostal doctrine that claims speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That one must speak in tongues as proof that they have been baptized. I also tend to not like some of the over emphasis on gifts that some pentecostals have. I understand it depends greatly on the church and pastor, but some pentecostals have put such attention on the gifts that it becomes an obsession to get as much as they can. I believe the spirit will give whatever gift he choses as he wills(1 Corinthians 12: 7-12). Is there any denomination out there that fits this? I have looked at the major pentecostal denominations such as Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Church of God, and they all claim the initial evidence as one of their core doctrines. Does anyone know of a pentecostal denomination that does not require this? And has a more moderate approach to the gifts?

Have any of the Pentecostal churches sited the Apostles' Creed during any of their services?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Have any of the Pentecostal churches sited the Apostles' Creed during any of their services?

This might sound silly, but why would they?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[tantalon]

All denominations are unbiblical. There is only One church, the body of Christ, into which we are baptized into. 1st. Corinthians 1: 11-13 in which Paul is steering such allegiance to away, and is noted. Such terms as I am a Baptist, I a Pentecostal, I a Catholic etc. are examples of opinions and not complete doctrinal truth, in the which we are to be speaking the same things. Attend your "Church" but do not take on that denominational tag- you belong to Christ, not that man determined "faith" in an institution.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

This might sound silly, but why would they?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby

There is the pentecostals but then I have read that there is also a New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) that has broken off from pentecostals and charismatics.

I have read that some are claiming that these NAR doctrines are percolating into some of the pentecostal and charismatic churches.

Are you familiar with any of this NAR stuff?

 

[garee]

This might sound silly, but why would they?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby

It would not make any difference. It does not take away from the false idea of "sign gifts" that replace "spiritual unseen gifts". . Gifts of understanding they work in those who can believe.

We understand or given faith after the spirit that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Not after what the eyes see the temporal, as a temporal temple. But rather what the hidden glory it conceals as we search by faith. . his working in us. .

In the new heavens and earth there will be no temple . The glory of God will illuminate .There will be no darkness night.

What we need is the "golden measure of faith" hid in the parables .

Looking to the literal temporal measure there is no light.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, (Bride) and the gates (the Jews) thereof, and the wall(gentiles) thereof.

Revelation 21:22- 25 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.