OT vs NT Righteousness

Blik · May 24, 2019

In MAtt. we are told that the saint were alive. How to you explain that they were alive after their physical death if the Lord did not save them as you are stating without any scripture to back up this decision that is purely your own.

All through OT scripture we are told they slept when they passed on. People cannot sleep and be condemned to eternal hell.

Also, how could you explain that the OT God has no grace to give and the NT God does have grace? Are you saying that the entire OT is about an idol, not a God? The Psalms are all just secular poetry? If the God of the OT is different, or not a true God as the NT God is, then we would need to toss out the major part of scripture for it would be about a false God.

John146 · May 24, 2019

Blik said:

You’re distorting what I stated. I did not say the OT saints were condemned to hell, but slept in Abraham’s bosom in the heart of the earth.

Can you state what one must believe to receive eternal salvation? Ever read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4? Salvation is believing how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again. Please post Scripture where any OT saint believed this before it even took place? Again, Peter and the disciples had no clue about the cross.

Blik · May 24, 2019

John146 said:

Our differences in understanding seems to be centered on the power of the sacrificial system. I read these things that I firmly believe: God is one, God is eternal and does not change. God tells us there is no salvation without blood, and i believe that is the blood of Christ. At the first of the chapter of John we learn that Christ was from the beginning, that there was power in the symbolic Christ that the sacrificial system was. The salvation of that system was, as you are stating, in sleep, they were kept, as it is explained in Matthew in that state until the crucifixion. If we read in Leviticus all that the sacrifice of the blood of Christ that was at that time symbolized is explained. From that scripture we can learn what Christ does for us.

The steps to our salvation is first learning the truth of Jesus and His Father God, then taking our sins to Christ for forgiveness and our repentance. Then we accept what Christ does for us so we are cleared of all our sins and we accept the spirit of Christ within us. It is and has always been that we are accepted based on this, we are accepted through the grace of the Lord. Our freedom from sin has been gained through Christ, and in OT times it was through the symbolic blood of Christ. Then we have a time of growth and learning to live through the Lord.

Guojing · May 24, 2019

Blik said:

You are ignoring his question, which is "What did the OT saints believe in for their salvation? Did they also believe in the death burial resurrection of Jesus like us now?"

Blik · May 25, 2019

Guojing said:

It is a loaded question, and based on a misunderstanding of scripture. You know perfectly well that minds cannot experience and understand what they haven't lived, yet. Did OT people understand about airplanes? No. About television? No. Had they experienced or were they told of the death and burial of Jesus? No. If from that you can jump to the conclusion that the sacrificial system did not do what God told us it could do, then God is correct and that conclusion is wrong.

crossnote · May 25, 2019

John146 said:

First, let's look into the OT. Under the OT, the law, a man could be righteous before God by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the law, however, it was self righteousness. A man could be blameless under the law, but not sinless.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

2 Samuel 22:21 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Under the law, sins could be forgiven but not cleared. Sins would be covered, but not washed away.

Leviticus 19:21 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. 22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Righteousness has always been by faith...
Genesis 15:5-6 KJVS
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. [6] And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Guojing · May 25, 2019

Blik said:

Not exactly. Hebrews 11 gave us several good examples of how the OT saints were saved by faith. They put their faith in what God has revealed to them there and then, but no, they did not and could not have put their faith in Jesus's DBR as we could now.

Noah believed God and build an ark in faith.
Rahab believed God and hid the spies in faith.
Abraham believed God that he would be a father of many in faith.

John146 · May 25, 2019

crossnote said:

This was before the law. Self righteousness was found by obeying the law. That’s what God gave Israel until His righteousness showed up in Jesus Christ.

John146 · May 25, 2019

Guojing said:

I would still argue that none of them were saved. They were placed in Abraham’s bosom upon death. That’s not salvation. You see, upon our death after the resurrection, believers are present with the Lord immediately upon death.

dcontroversal · May 25, 2019

O.T. <----Had to keep every commandment 24/7/365 your whole life <---No one except JESUS done this <--NOT a just man upon the earth that does good and SINS NOT and exactly why it states....In what the LAW COULD NOT DO in that is is weak through the FLESH

N.T. <-----BY FAITH the IMPUTED righteousness of the BOLDED ONE ABOVE is the ONLY way ONE is seen as righteous

Guojing · May 25, 2019

John146 said:

Actually, Jesus in Matt 5:19 said

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As far as righteousness is concerned, in the gospel of the kingdom, you had to obey the law and display faith, in order to be righteous (James 2)

posthuman · May 25, 2019

Guojing said:

the work of the Son was a mystery before He appeared and performed it.

but Daniel says this -

O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto Thee, and unto us open shame, as appeareth this day unto every man of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, yea, unto all Israel, both near and far off, through all the country, whither thou hast driven them, because of their offences, that they have committed against Thee.

O Lord, unto us appertaineth open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against Thee.

Yet compassion and forgiveness is in the Lord our God, albeit we have rebelled against Him.
(Daniel 9:7-9)

is Christ not the righteousness of God, the compassion and forgiveness of Him, made tangible in His person? so i think, Daniel looked towards the Son, even though he did not know how He would be revealed and what form His work would take. Daniel knew that righteousness, mercy and lovingkindness belong to God, and hoped for them, believing in His name, that the Lord would through these things pass over our shame.

Blik · May 25, 2019

John146 said:

I think you need an introduction to the God who created you, scripture tells all about Him. Law is built into creation, all our world is operated by law. Humans try to divide it into parts, like natural law, moral law, or ceremonial law. Moses just reported the law that always was. At no time in all of history has God told any man that he can be so Godlike that he can live with God. Do you find any scripture to back this foolish idea up? Salvation has never changed, it has always been through the grace of God we can have by faith, never has man been so perfect that Christ's blood (symbolic at first) not been required. If you will read scripture, even in the NT, you will find that Jesus didn't become part of our world at Bethllehem but Jesus was from the beginning.

MattforJesus · May 25, 2019

John146 said:

It is true that it was by the power of their own effort to keep the Old Testament laws, for they could not have the Spirit as in the New Testament, which John the Baptist was the first to have the Spirit which was from the womb, and give him power to live right, and prepare the way for Christ.

But the Spirit did not save John from the womb, but only gave him power to prepare the way for Jesus, and John did not receive the Spirit to save him while on earth, for Jesus was not glorified yet, and that is why Jesus said born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, but a person that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

There is no difference between Old and New Testament as far as us obeying, and if we do not obey the truth of what God lays down as the law then we will be cut off like the Jews that did not obey.

Which Paul says we do not void out the law through faith, but we establish the law, and the law is spiritual, and holy, just, and good.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections, and show the ways of the Spirit, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they can handle, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

If they had such a demand on them in the Old Testament to obey without the Spirit, how much more of a demand in the New Testament with the Spirit.

But some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away.

A Spirit led life is not under the law, for their sins are forgiven, and they are abstaining from sins, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

If a person sins they are led of the flesh, and not the Spirit, and under the law, and if they repent, and mean it, and do not want it again, then they are forgiven, but if they hold unto sin there is no more sacrifice for that sin, for the blood of Christ will not wash it away.

John146 · May 25, 2019

Blik said:

I think you need an introduction to the God who created you, scripture tells all about Him. Law is built into creation, all our world is operated by law. Humans try to divide it into parts, like natural law, moral law, or ceremonial law. Moses just reported the law that always was. At no time in all of history has God told any man that he can be so Godlike that he can live with God. Do you find any scripture to back this foolish idea up? Salvation has never changed, it has always been through the grace of God we can have by faith, never has man been so perfect that Christ's blood (symbolic at first) not been required. If you will read scripture, even in the NT, you will find that Jesus didn't become part of our world at Bethllehem but Jesus was from the beginning.

And yet you can find no one who trusted in the cross for sins before it happened. Are you saying there are multiple ways unto salvation other than the cross?

Guojing · May 25, 2019

posthuman said:

This picture is a good summary of Hebrews 11. Scripture plainly states that faith is the key to salvation for all people down through history, but how could God save people without their knowing of Christ’s sacrifice for them? The answer is that God saved them based on their response to the knowledge that they did have. Their faith looked forward to something that they could not see, whereas today, believers look back on events that they can see. The following graphic depicts this understanding:

Prior to Christ’s coming, God was foreshadowing Jesus’ death via the sacrificial system and conditioning His people to understand that sin leads to death. The Law was given to be a tutor to lead people to the understanding that they were sinners in need of God’s grace (Galatians 3:24). But the Law did not revoke the prior Abrahamic Covenant, which was based on faith; it is Abraham’s covenant that is the pattern for salvation today (Romans 4)

John146 · May 25, 2019

Guojing said:

This picture is a good summary of Hebrews 11. Scripture plainly states that faith is the key to salvation for all people down through history, but how could God save people without their knowing of Christ’s sacrifice for them? The answer is that God saved them based on their response to the knowledge that they did have. Their faith looked forward to something that they could not see, whereas today, believers look back on events that they can see. The following graphic depicts this understanding:

Prior to Christ’s coming, God was foreshadowing Jesus’ death via the sacrificial system and conditioning His people to understand that sin leads to death. The Law was given to be a tutor to lead people to the understanding that they were sinners in need of God’s grace (Galatians 3:24). But the Law did not revoke the prior Abrahamic Covenant, which was based on faith; it is Abraham’s covenant that is the pattern for salvation today (Romans 4)

Do you consider Abraham’s bosom salvation?

I believe in only one way unto salvation and that’s by believing specifically in Jesus’ death for our sins, His burial and resurrection. Btw, no one looked forward to the cross.

Guojing · May 25, 2019

John146 said:

Well, I think a few OT saints saw the revelation of a future sacrifice. The most well known was David, who was perplexed that his sins of murder and adultery were not covered by sacrificial provision (Ps. 51:16) yet discerned in the Lord a covering mercy that went beyond what the sacrifices could promise (51:7–9). Paul used him in the book of Romans about this issue too.

I don't think they were at Abraham's bosom, but you may be right.

corazondeldei · May 26, 2019

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 8:1-3
...We know that we all possess knowledge. KNOWLEDGE PUFFS UP, BUT LOVE BUILDS UP. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. BUT THE MAN 2HO LOVES GOD IS KNOWN BY GOD.

NIV1984 Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you EVILDOERS!’

God never knew the evildoers and would not let them be with Him, and Jesus, when tempted by the devil said the same thing and even made clear what these evildoers are supposed to do;

NIV1984 Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

And why did He say this?
Because they worship Him in vain and disobeyed His commands and served another god.

NIV1984 Mark 7:6-13
He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

NIV1984 Romans 6:16-23
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?...

They made SIN their master and disobeyed God.

Disobedience to God is not love for God but hatred for Him and rebellion against the supreme authority which
Lucifer did that caused him to be cast out of heaven and became God's enemy.

Apostle John said,

NIV1984 2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

NIV1984 1 John 3:11
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

The OT and the NT message of salvation is LOVE.

IMHO, the life,death, burial and resurrection of Christ can be reflected in the OT as Peter wrote;

NIV1984 1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Nehemiah6 · May 26, 2019

John146 said:

Those who were in Abraham's Bosom were the Old Testament saints. They were justified by grace through faith, just like Abraham. Hence in Abraham's bosom. But they were perfected in Heaven after the resurrection of Christ, when He took captivity captive, and brought them all with Him to the New Jerusalem (Heb 11 and 12).

OT vs NT Righteousness

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