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Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
113
#61
Those who have departed from the faith:

To depart from the faith means that a person had once been in the faith. Brother Swaggart says when we speak of faith at the ministry, we're speaking of faith in the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. When people leave the Cross and turn to other things, which millions are now doing, the Scripture says of them: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).

Needless to say, such individuals, as with the lukewarm and as with those who have a form of godliness, are labeled by the Lord as unsaved, despite their claims, and will not go in the rapture nor enter the strait gate and narrow way that leads unto life.

Many are proclaiming Christ, but forsaking the Cross (lukewarm). This is also called "spiritual adultery (Rom. 7:1-4)."

JSM
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
113
#62
where was Moses commanded to sing?

where did this gentile woman with great faith and no knowledge of the cross strike Christ?
She smite the "Rock" who is Jesus with her Faith." She next spoke to the "Rock" and made her request known. The scripture says then she switched over to worship.

1. God told Moses to smite the "Rock." - Exodus 17:6

I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.


2. The Lord told Moses to speak to the "Rock." - Numbers 20:7-8

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.



3. Moses and Israel sung (praise and worship) to the "Rock." Numbers 21:16-17

And from thence they went to Beer: that is the well whereof the Lord spake unto Moses, Gather the people together, and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it:


This woman smite the "Rock with her Faith (Type of Christ - typified the Cross)," she spoke to the "Rock (made her request known)," and she sung to the "Rock" (with her worship); she received the "Water of Life" which is the Holy Spirit that healed her daughter.

Smite - spoke - worship (sung)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#63
She smite the "Rock" who is Jesus with her Faith." She next spoke to the "Rock" and made her request known. The scripture says then she switched over to worship.

1. God told Moses to smite the "Rock." - Exodus 17:6

I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.


2. The Lord told Moses to speak to the "Rock." - Numbers 20:7-8

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.



3. Moses and Israel sung (praise and worship) to the "Rock." Numbers 21:16-17

And from thence they went to Beer: that is the well whereof the Lord spake unto Moses, Gather the people together, and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it:


This woman smite the "Rock with her Faith (Type of Christ - typified the Cross)," she spoke to the "Rock (made her request known)," and she sung to the "Rock" (with her worship); she received the "Water of Life" which is the Holy Spirit that healed her daughter.

Smite - spoke - worship (sung)
Smite - smoke - sung - stretch.

I think the connections you're trying to establish are far too tenuous.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#64
Those who have departed from the faith:

To depart from the faith means that a person had once been in the faith. Brother Swaggart says when we speak of faith at the ministry, we're speaking of faith in the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. When people leave the Cross and turn to other things, which millions are now doing, the Scripture says of them: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).

Needless to say, such individuals, as with the lukewarm and as with those who have a form of godliness, are labeled by the Lord as unsaved, despite their claims, and will not go in the rapture nor enter the strait gate and narrow way that leads unto life.

Many are proclaiming Christ, but forsaking the Cross (lukewarm). This is also called "spiritual adultery (Rom. 7:1-4)."

JSM
Romans 7:1-4 has nothing to do with spiritual adultery... at all. You write (paste) so much about "departing from the faith" and accuse others of having done so... with precious little in the way of evidence. You show no interest in interacting with people, but you stand in judgment over them.

It's sick.
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
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#65
If we preach Jesus alone and ignore the Cross, that is another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). This is sin, a insult to God!

Paul said, "But we preach Christ Crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:23)."

He said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified (2 Corinthians 2:2)."

He said, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world (Galatians 6:14).

He also said, "For the preaching (Message) of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. ***For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent (1Corthinians 1:18-19)."

***As you see spiritual things cannot be discerned by unredeemed people, but that doesn't matter; the Cross must be preached just the same!

God forbid that I should glory (boast), save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
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#66
Observe carefully what your pastor is teaching or preaching. Hebrews 10:26 states: “For if we sin willfully (the ‘willful sin’ is the transference of Faith from Christ and Him Crucified to other things) after that we have received the knowledge of the Truth (speaks of the Bible Way of Salvation and Victory, which is ‘Jesus Christ and Him Crucified’ [I Cor. 2:2]), there remains no more Sacrifice for sins (if the Cross of Christ is rejected, there is no other Sacrifice or way God will accept).”

The exegesis is:

1.The willful sin that is spoken of here is the transferal of Faith from Christ and Him Crucified to other things. Here, in this Scripture, Paul would have been speaking of Christian Jews putting their Faith in the Levitical sacrifices instead of Christ. However, it is definitely not limited to that.

2. One cannot move their Faith from the Truth if they have not first heard and received the Truth, which these Christian Jews had. Their sin was a departure from Truth. The Truth is “Christ and Him Crucified.”

3. When one rejects Christ as the Only Sacrifice for sin, there remains no other sacrifice. In other words, one has just closed the door to Salvation.

The phrase, “For if we sin willfully,” refers to several things:

• He is speaking here of Believers who are on the verge of no longer believing. Believing what?

• Of no longer believing in Christ and His great Sacrifice as the only manner of Salvation.

• Such a sin is always a willful sin, because it can be no other. It has to do with the next phrase.

• The Holy Spirit here through Paul is not speaking of other types of sin. Some people have misunderstood this as to think that anyone who sins willfully cannot be forgiven. The truth is, every single sin anyone ever commits is in some way a “willful sin.” No, Paul is speaking here of a certain type of sin, which is the type of sin that can damn one’s soul. He is speaking of turning away from Christ and His Sacrifice on the Cross, ceasing to believe in Him as the Saviour, and, thereby, believing in something else. The “willful sin” is limited to this particular type of sin.

RENOUNCING UNBELIEF

Even then, if the person at a point in time, renounces their unbelief, and desires to come back to Christ, every clue in the Bible is that the Lord will gladly accept them. The idea is, if a Believer ceases to believe in Christ and renounces Christ and the Cross, and remains in that condition, there is no way that person can be Saved. The Sacrifice of Christ being the only way, and that being renounced, the door is closed! The phrase, “After that we have received the knowledge of the Truth,” speaks of the Bible Way of Salvation, which is “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.”

I Corinthians 2:2 states: “For I determined not to know any thing among you (with purpose and design, Paul did not resort to the knowledge or philosophy of the world regarding the preaching of the Gospel), save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified (that and that alone is the Message which will save the sinner, set the captive free, and give the Believer perpetual victory).”

“Knowledge” in the Greek as used here, is “epignosis.” It is not the simple word “gnosis,” which is commonly used, but rather something far greater. Delitzsch defines it by saying: “When ‘epignosis’ is used, there is the assumption of an actual direction of the Spirit to a definite object and of a real grasping of the same.” Paul, by the use of this word, gives us to understand that he means by it, not merely a shallow historical notion about the Truth, but a living believing knowledge of it, which has laid hold of a man and fused him into union with itself. So, we are not speaking here of sinners having merely heard the Truth and then rejecting it, as many teach, but rather individuals who have heard the Truth, received the Truth, and made the Truth a part of their lives before rejecting it. As well, when we say “Truth” we’re speaking of “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” as the only answer for sin, which Paul describes again in Verse 29 of Hebrews, Chapter 10:“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God (proclaims the reason for the ‘sorer punishment’), and has counted the Blood of the Covenant, wherewith he was Sanctified, an unholy thing (refers to a person who has been Saved, but is now expressing unbelief toward that which originally Saved him), and has done despite unto the Spirit of Grace? (When the Cross is rejected, the Holy Spirit is insulted.)

The willful sin in this passage, as stated, is the definitive rejection of His Atoning Sacrifice.

con't
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
527
113
#67
TRUTH

I want the reader to fully understand here the meaning of the word “Truth.” Of course we know that Truth is the Word of God. The Word of God is the only revealed Truth in the world and, in fact, ever has been. However, when we say, “The Word of God” we are at the same time saying, “The Sacrifice of Christ,” for that’s what the Bible exclusively teaches. That is why we keep talking about the Cross, because the Cross is the Truth, even as Truth is the Cross, which is here so clearly borne out. And we must always remember it is the Holy Spirit Who referred to the Sacrifice of Christ as “Truth” (Jn. 1:14; 8:32; 14:6; 16:13). (When we use the word “Cross,” we are referring to the “Finished Work of the Lord Jesus Christ,” His Death, Burial, and Resurrection.) The point is this: there is no other Truth! All Biblical knowledge springs from the Truth of the Cross (Jimmy Swaggart, Hebrews Bible Commentary).

HUMANISTIC PSYCHOLOGY

Beginning in the 1970’s, the Pentecostal and Charismatic sections of the church began to drift toward humanistic psychology. Unfortunately, this drift is now a wholesale acceptance. Whether denominational leaders understand it or not, this is an explicit vote of “no confidence” as it regards the Cross of Christ. Faith in the Cross automatically negates faith in the efforts of man. Either Jesus addressed every single problem of man at the Cross or He did not; I believe He did. You must choose which you believe. If your true faith lies in man’s efforts, that’s what you will find yourself doing. If your faith lies in the Cross, you will not enter those labors. When it comes to the sins, perversions, and aberrations of man, we look to Christ or we look to human wisdom. Human wisdom is that which the Holy Spirit through James called, “earthly, sensual, and devilish.” James 3:15 states: “This wisdom descends not from above (any wisdom that claims Salvation or Victory in any way or manner other than the Cross is not wisdom from above), but is earthly, sensual, devilish. (Whatever its appeal, if it’s not the Cross, it is of Satan. This covers humanistic psychology, plus anything else devised by men, i.e., ‘demons.’)” Verse 17 says: “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure (it is found in all its fullness in Christ, and in Christ Alone), then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (These things present the Work of the Holy Spirit, with the Cross as the means and Christ as the Source.)” To turn from what Christ has already done to redeem humanity, and we speak of the Cross, and place trust in humanistic psychology or any other man-made teaching is the “willful sin” addressed here. It includes an individual who blatantly rejects, chooses to ignore, or tries to add to the Cross as the answer to man’s dilemma. In any of these cases, he has abandoned, to his own detriment, the one and only Way of Salvation.

SAVIOUR

Untold millions in this world presently think of Christ as a Good Man, a Prophet, a Miracle Worker, a great Teacher, a great Leader, etc., but sadly, very few refer to Him as the Saviour of this world. In other words, they place no value in His Atoning Sacrifice – irrespective of their admiration for His personal Goodness or Deeds. But, if they do not accept His Sacrifice for sin they cannot be Saved. There is no neutrality as it regards the Cross. We either accept it fully or we have rejected it. If we claim to accept the Cross and yet turn to other things when the chips are down, we, in effect, reject the Cross as the solution to our problem. Again, let me state, one cannot have it both ways. It is either Christ or humanistic psychology. Man’s problem is sin, and the whole reason Jesus went to the Cross was to atone for it. There is no other cure, no other panacea, no other remedy. Even under the old Covenant, the Lord did not teach the Jews any “works” method by which to overcome sin; He taught them Faith and the Sacrificial system. And remember, the sacrifices were only a temporary covering, a Type of their Messiah, Jesus, the Lamb of God, Who would be sacrificed for the ultimate defeat of sin. Yes, humanistic psychology does a great job of describing behavior, but even if you pinpoint every detail of every environmental and genealogical factor which led to a person’s abnormalities and/or problems, the method used to change that person can never amount to anything more than witchcraft. God’s Design causes His Power to come by way of the Cross alone, so any other “power,” no matter how slight, is a usurpation of His. Beware you don’t rob the Glory of the Son; it will not please the Father.

THE MODERN CHURCH

This is why we fear the modern church is in such great danger! A large part of the Charismatic world openly refutes the message of the Cross. Some blatantly state their rejection, referring to it as “past miseries.” Others even refer to the Cross as “the greatest defeat in human history.” Their theology has done a startling 180 degree turn from the Truth of Scripture! The Truth is that the Cross was the greatest Victory in human history; it was the Victory over our sins! Still others place the Cross in a subsidiary position and, thereby, make other aspects premier. For example, some make the Resurrection premier, while others, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. There are a few who count the Cross as almost insignificant regarding even the entire Plan of Salvation. These few are attributing Salvation to a false conception of Christ and His Cross, such as the “Jesus died Spiritually” doctrine. The “seeker sensitive” church takes the approach of placing more emphasis on the needs, wants, and desires of the sinner rather than the Word of the Lord. The felt needs of the sinner are simply placed above the preaching of the Cross. Sin is never mentioned, the goal being to make the sinner comfortable. The sinner’s music is to be played, for example, and nothing is to be said that might offend him. So, to tell an individual he is a sinner, needs a Saviour, and will die in his sin to spend an eternity in Hell if he does not accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour is offensive information and, therefore, not allowed.

SEEKER SENSITIVE!

In fact, anything suggesting that the whole human race is lost and depraved is taboo in a “seeker-sensitive” church. Instead, this church focuses on keeping the sinner feeling good about himself and giving him a positive outlook toward life. Their favorite plan for this is to put the sinner in social service to the community (“works”). This way he will feel good about himself for helping mankind and feel that he is gaining Salvation. How can we never tell the poor individual he is lost? It is comical that most churches like this, who will not mention sin, will at the same time claim to preach the Cross of Christ. Why bother to preach the solution to a problem they do not even admit exists? This is a telltale sign that the Cross is not really being preached. In fact, this entire line of thinking is “willful sin,” a rejection of God’s Way for man’s way. A perfect example of this can be found in II Peter 2:15-16 which states: “Which have forsaken the right way (means they once knew the right way, but now they have forsaken it; the ‘right way’ is the ‘Cross’), and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor (that ‘way’ is money), who loved the wages of unrighteousness (this false prophet was willing to prostitute himself to secure gold); But was rebuked for his iniquity (Balaam was sinning): the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the Prophet. (A dumb animal rebuked the Prophet. Modern popular theology denies this, and so accuses the Holy Spirit of falsehood.)”You see, the only logical reason a preacher would leave the message of the Cross is to serve his own fleshly lusts, the fact being that more people will support a man preaching a works-oriented Gospel.

WORKS ORIENTED FAITH

Why will a works-oriented message always win the popular vote? Because more people have a works-oriented faith. More people will trust their own religious works before they will trust Christ’s Finished Work at Calvary. Human nature always looks for a way to justify itself. But, God’s Word does not lie. It tells us exactly what will happen to those who have heard, accepted, and followed the “Truth,” then turn their backs on it for any reason. II Peter 2:20 states: “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (they were Saved by trusting Christ and the Cross), they are again entangled therein, and overcome (proclaims the fact that if the Believer ceases to place his Faith and trust in what Jesus did at the Cross, that entanglement in the pollutions of the world will once again become a fact; it cannot be otherwise), the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (If Believers reject the Message of the Cross after it is plainly given, there is nothing left but destruction.)


JSM
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#68
She smite the "Rock" who is Jesus with her Faith." She next spoke to the "Rock" and made her request known. The scripture says then she switched over to worship.

1. God told Moses to smite the "Rock." - Exodus 17:6

I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.


2. The Lord told Moses to speak to the "Rock." - Numbers 20:7-8

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.



3. Moses and Israel sung (praise and worship) to the "Rock." Numbers 21:16-17

And from thence they went to Beer: that is the well whereof the Lord spake unto Moses, Gather the people together, and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it:


This woman smite the "Rock with her Faith (Type of Christ - typified the Cross)," she spoke to the "Rock (made her request known)," and she sung to the "Rock" (with her worship); she received the "Water of Life" which is the Holy Spirit that healed her daughter.

Smite - spoke - worship (sung)

Hmm you did not find Moses being commanded to sing, and you say that having faith in God = smiting Him?

That's a really weird doctrine, m8
Can you give any scripture that equates believing in the Lord with striking Him?
Seems to me the Bible teaches exactly the opposite of what you are trying to tell me here:
That our songs of praise to Him are free-will and thanksgiving offerings, not by coercion or command ((enter His gate with thanksgiving in your heart, His courts with praise))
That to believe and trust Him is to cling to Him, and to strike Him and smite Him is unbelief and rejection ((strike The Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered))

It is better that your heart be softened to accept the truth than to dogmatically harden yourself and search for justification of things which were misspoke. If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#69
Thank you for using your own words and sharing your own thoughts.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,645
13,120
113
#70
The faith of God that worked in them it made it aware beforehand and the glory that followed.
Ephesians 3:4-5
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

The Bible seems to say they did not know
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,680
13,366
113
#71
TRUTH

I want the reader to fully understand here the meaning of the word “Truth.” Of course we know that Truth is the Word of God. The Word of God is the only revealed Truth in the world and, in fact, ever has been. However, when we say, “The Word of God” we are at the same time saying, “The Sacrifice of Christ,” for that’s what the Bible exclusively teaches. That is why we keep talking about the Cross, because the Cross is the Truth, even as Truth is the Cross, which is here so clearly borne out. And we must always remember it is the Holy Spirit Who referred to the Sacrifice of Christ as “Truth” (Jn. 1:14; 8:32; 14:6; 16:13). (When we use the word “Cross,” we are referring to the “Finished Work of the Lord Jesus Christ,” His Death, Burial, and Resurrection.) The point is this: there is no other Truth! All Biblical knowledge springs from the Truth of the Cross (Jimmy Swaggart, Hebrews Bible Commentary).

HUMANISTIC PSYCHOLOGY

Beginning in the 1970’s, the Pentecostal and Charismatic sections of the church began to drift toward humanistic psychology. Unfortunately, this drift is now a wholesale acceptance. Whether denominational leaders understand it or not, this is an explicit vote of “no confidence” as it regards the Cross of Christ. Faith in the Cross automatically negates faith in the efforts of man. Either Jesus addressed every single problem of man at the Cross or He did not; I believe He did. You must choose which you believe. If your true faith lies in man’s efforts, that’s what you will find yourself doing. If your faith lies in the Cross, you will not enter those labors. When it comes to the sins, perversions, and aberrations of man, we look to Christ or we look to human wisdom. Human wisdom is that which the Holy Spirit through James called, “earthly, sensual, and devilish.” James 3:15 states: “This wisdom descends not from above (any wisdom that claims Salvation or Victory in any way or manner other than the Cross is not wisdom from above), but is earthly, sensual, devilish. (Whatever its appeal, if it’s not the Cross, it is of Satan. This covers humanistic psychology, plus anything else devised by men, i.e., ‘demons.’)” Verse 17 says: “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure (it is found in all its fullness in Christ, and in Christ Alone), then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (These things present the Work of the Holy Spirit, with the Cross as the means and Christ as the Source.)” To turn from what Christ has already done to redeem humanity, and we speak of the Cross, and place trust in humanistic psychology or any other man-made teaching is the “willful sin” addressed here. It includes an individual who blatantly rejects, chooses to ignore, or tries to add to the Cross as the answer to man’s dilemma. In any of these cases, he has abandoned, to his own detriment, the one and only Way of Salvation.

SAVIOUR

Untold millions in this world presently think of Christ as a Good Man, a Prophet, a Miracle Worker, a great Teacher, a great Leader, etc., but sadly, very few refer to Him as the Saviour of this world. In other words, they place no value in His Atoning Sacrifice – irrespective of their admiration for His personal Goodness or Deeds. But, if they do not accept His Sacrifice for sin they cannot be Saved. There is no neutrality as it regards the Cross. We either accept it fully or we have rejected it. If we claim to accept the Cross and yet turn to other things when the chips are down, we, in effect, reject the Cross as the solution to our problem. Again, let me state, one cannot have it both ways. It is either Christ or humanistic psychology. Man’s problem is sin, and the whole reason Jesus went to the Cross was to atone for it. There is no other cure, no other panacea, no other remedy. Even under the old Covenant, the Lord did not teach the Jews any “works” method by which to overcome sin; He taught them Faith and the Sacrificial system. And remember, the sacrifices were only a temporary covering, a Type of their Messiah, Jesus, the Lamb of God, Who would be sacrificed for the ultimate defeat of sin. Yes, humanistic psychology does a great job of describing behavior, but even if you pinpoint every detail of every environmental and genealogical factor which led to a person’s abnormalities and/or problems, the method used to change that person can never amount to anything more than witchcraft. God’s Design causes His Power to come by way of the Cross alone, so any other “power,” no matter how slight, is a usurpation of His. Beware you don’t rob the Glory of the Son; it will not please the Father.

THE MODERN CHURCH

This is why we fear the modern church is in such great danger! A large part of the Charismatic world openly refutes the message of the Cross. Some blatantly state their rejection, referring to it as “past miseries.” Others even refer to the Cross as “the greatest defeat in human history.” Their theology has done a startling 180 degree turn from the Truth of Scripture! The Truth is that the Cross was the greatest Victory in human history; it was the Victory over our sins! Still others place the Cross in a subsidiary position and, thereby, make other aspects premier. For example, some make the Resurrection premier, while others, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. There are a few who count the Cross as almost insignificant regarding even the entire Plan of Salvation. These few are attributing Salvation to a false conception of Christ and His Cross, such as the “Jesus died Spiritually” doctrine. The “seeker sensitive” church takes the approach of placing more emphasis on the needs, wants, and desires of the sinner rather than the Word of the Lord. The felt needs of the sinner are simply placed above the preaching of the Cross. Sin is never mentioned, the goal being to make the sinner comfortable. The sinner’s music is to be played, for example, and nothing is to be said that might offend him. So, to tell an individual he is a sinner, needs a Saviour, and will die in his sin to spend an eternity in Hell if he does not accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour is offensive information and, therefore, not allowed.

SEEKER SENSITIVE!

In fact, anything suggesting that the whole human race is lost and depraved is taboo in a “seeker-sensitive” church. Instead, this church focuses on keeping the sinner feeling good about himself and giving him a positive outlook toward life. Their favorite plan for this is to put the sinner in social service to the community (“works”). This way he will feel good about himself for helping mankind and feel that he is gaining Salvation. How can we never tell the poor individual he is lost? It is comical that most churches like this, who will not mention sin, will at the same time claim to preach the Cross of Christ. Why bother to preach the solution to a problem they do not even admit exists? This is a telltale sign that the Cross is not really being preached. In fact, this entire line of thinking is “willful sin,” a rejection of God’s Way for man’s way. A perfect example of this can be found in II Peter 2:15-16 which states: “Which have forsaken the right way (means they once knew the right way, but now they have forsaken it; the ‘right way’ is the ‘Cross’), and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor (that ‘way’ is money), who loved the wages of unrighteousness (this false prophet was willing to prostitute himself to secure gold); But was rebuked for his iniquity (Balaam was sinning): the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the Prophet. (A dumb animal rebuked the Prophet. Modern popular theology denies this, and so accuses the Holy Spirit of falsehood.)”You see, the only logical reason a preacher would leave the message of the Cross is to serve his own fleshly lusts, the fact being that more people will support a man preaching a works-oriented Gospel.

WORKS ORIENTED FAITH

Why will a works-oriented message always win the popular vote? Because more people have a works-oriented faith. More people will trust their own religious works before they will trust Christ’s Finished Work at Calvary. Human nature always looks for a way to justify itself. But, God’s Word does not lie. It tells us exactly what will happen to those who have heard, accepted, and followed the “Truth,” then turn their backs on it for any reason. II Peter 2:20 states: “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (they were Saved by trusting Christ and the Cross), they are again entangled therein, and overcome (proclaims the fact that if the Believer ceases to place his Faith and trust in what Jesus did at the Cross, that entanglement in the pollutions of the world will once again become a fact; it cannot be otherwise), the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (If Believers reject the Message of the Cross after it is plainly given, there is nothing left but destruction.)

JSM
tl; dr
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#72
Ephesians 3:4-5
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

The Bible seems to say they did not know
It would seem they understod mysteries, not fully, but in part. . The perfect was still coming. The book of Revelation marks it and seals it with 7 seals . I do not think they were clueless until Pentecost as some say the Holy Spirit was not available until Acts2.

It would seem the generation when Ephesians was written revealed information differently . The new helps to interpret the old. But the 1 Peter reference which speaks of the saints on the other side of the cross. They walked by faith receiving the end of it (salvation) from the beginning just as us today no difference .

The verse you offered does not mean no one had the Spirit of Christ un till then.

The cerimoninil laws golden thread of the gospel hid from natural man preached the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow. They looked ahead by faith to the demonstration, we look back by the same faith that comes from hearing God. No difference purifying their hearts by a work of His faith just as ours. the relay race .Christ the Victor.

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified "beforehand" the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter1:8-11

Beforehand....ceremonial laws , in the parables, the hidden manna.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#73
If we preach Jesus alone and ignore the Cross, that is another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). This is sin, a insult to God!

Paul said, "But we preach Christ Crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:23)."

He said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified (2 Corinthians 2:2)."

He said, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world (Galatians 6:14).

He also said, "For the preaching (Message) of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. ***For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent (1Corthinians 1:18-19)."

***As you see spiritual things cannot be discerned by unredeemed people, but that doesn't matter; the Cross must be preached just the same!

God forbid that I should glory (boast), save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
If you wrote this in response to a specific person, then you should have quoted that person. It certainly doesn't apply to Grandpa, PostHuman, or myself.

Otherwise, you are just speaking into the air. This is a DISCUSSION forum, not a Speaking Into The Air forum.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#74
On Feb. 10, 2018 you stated:

Oh precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow
No other fount I know
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus

My question is why have you fallen away?
I don't really understand your question.

You think I have fallen away because I tell you I don't worship the Blood or the Cross but I worship Jesus Christ Himself?

That's kind of baffling.

I was just trying to get you to see the difference between worshipping Christ Himself and worshipping what He did and what He gave.


I've noticed that there are lots of religious people that know the words but when you ask them what they mean they get tongue tied and can't explain. Its like they've memorized something and they think that is what Christianity is.

But Christianity isn't memorizing a bunch of words. Christianity is knowing the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#75
I dont think anyones saying you need to worship the cross, but recognise the cross. Where people get 'worshipping the cross' from the OP I dont know.
Worshipping Jesus, is also something Jesus himself wouldnt accept He would always point to His Father. Yes we call him Lord, but Jesus alone is the son not the Father.

Another thing is concern that peoole dont recognise Jesus blood paid for their sin. Without Jesus Blood, we have no testimony, our sins cant be washed away. I often wonder how people can carry on sinning when Jesus blood paid for their sin. They are not applying the blood. They arent recognising for all their sin, Jesus had to die on the cross. Jesus did not ascend up to heaven without dying and giving his life for us in other words.

Some people have a hard time struggling with sin right? The wages of sin are death. If they carry on with sin they are going to perish. JEsus makes a way that one doesnt have to sin because he put death to sin on the cross, thats why we must reckon ourselves dead to sin. Not TRY to do better but actually put our old selves to death. This is why confession is so important if you dont recognise the sin in your life and ask for forgiveness and cleansing with Jesus blood, its still going to be there tainting everything you do! And thats no way to live. JEsus sets us free.

If people understand this they wont be just trying to be good christians or maybe being religious church goers or theologians they will actually overcome and have victory. There are three witnesses to jesus, the water, the blood and the spirit. Some people really cant seem to grasp what the blood does.

Yes knowing who Jesus is is great! But knowing what Hes done for us helps us in our walk and gives us victory! The disiples all knew who Jesus was right..they lived with him and walked with him, but they didnt at first understand what He was doing for them! They had no clue and didnt understand why He had to die.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#76
Where people get 'worshipping the cross' from the OP I dont know.
Well you are right it's not in the OP. But it is concerning when someone says they put their faith in Jesus Christ, not in any object, and this isn't a person who in any way denies that Christ was crucified and rose again - - it's concerning when a person is accused of departing from the faith solely on the basis of that. It makes you wonder whether the accuser regards the cross higher than the Lord who gave Himself on it.
It's not the temple which makes itself holy, but the God who dwells in it that sanctifies that temple by His presence.

Worshipping Jesus, is also something Jesus himself wouldnt accept He would always point to His Father.
That's not so.
He accepted worship, never rebuked anyone for worshiping Him and never told anyone to get up who knelt down before Him. This is amazing - no one else in scripture who was speaking for God or sent by God ever acted this way, whether angels or men they immediately stopped anyone who bowed before them and told them to worship God alone.

Example: John 20:28-29, where Thomas sees the resurrected Jesus, and His scars. Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" - which is worship - and instead of rebuking him Christ says Thomas is blessed and that Thomas truly believes.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#77
This is amazing - no one else in scripture who was speaking for God or sent by God ever acted this way, whether angels or men they immediately stopped anyone who bowed before them and told them to worship God alone.
You may have examples from the OT now come to mind like the announcement of the birth of Samson or Joshua the night before going to Jericho. "The" Angel of the LORD appears and is treated by those who see Him as tho they have seen God Himself - not 'an' angel. This One does not rebuke people for treating Him like He is God Himself - - what's the explanation? This is also Christ, pre incarnate.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#78
Hmm you did not find Moses being commanded to sing, and you say that having faith in God = smiting Him?

That's a really weird doctrine, m8
Can you give any scripture that equates believing in the Lord with striking Him?
Seems to me the Bible teaches exactly the opposite of what you are trying to tell me here:
That our songs of praise to Him are free-will and thanksgiving offerings, not by coercion or command ((enter His gate with thanksgiving in your heart, His courts with praise))
That to believe and trust Him is to cling to Him, and to strike Him and smite Him is unbelief and rejection ((strike The Shepherd and the sheep will be scattered))

It is better that your heart be softened to accept the truth than to dogmatically harden yourself and search for justification of things which were misspoke. If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive :)
Please study this!

"Apply the Cross to the Problem"

2 Kings 6:1-7 King James Version (KJV)

And the sons of the prophets said unto Elisha, Behold now, the place where we dwell with thee is too strait for us.

Let us go, we pray thee, unto Jordan, and take thence every man a beam, and let us make us a place there, where we may dwell. And he answered, Go ye.

And one said, Be content, I pray thee, and go with thy servants. And he answered, I will go.

So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood.

But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim. ("The sick," no matter how crude, was symbolic of the Cross of Jesus Christ. We learn from this the tremendous lesson of the Power of Calvary. Every single blessing received by the Child of God comes through Calvary. Elisha applied the Cross to the problem. Regrettably, most in the modern Church have set the Cross aside, resorting to other things, which only bring death.)

Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it. (The Cross is a Finished Work. Consequently, all the Believer has to do is simply stretch out his hand and take it. All that the Cross represents is ours for the asking.)

We as Believers apply the Cross of Christ, i.e., The Finished Work, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, to every problem by placing and maintaining simple Faith, the size of a mustard seed in who Christ is, and what Christ has done at the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won. When this is done, the LORD does for you as He told Moses in Exodus 6:1, "Now watch what I do to Satan, now watch what I do to the problems, now watch, what I do to your health, now watch what I do to your marriage, now watch what I do to any and everything that comes against you. Now Shall you see what I will do to...Glory be to God.

JSM

“THE BITTER WATERS

Exodus 15:22-26

22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. (God tests Faith in order to strengthen and enrich it.)

23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. (Marah means “bitter.” Pink says: “While the wilderness may and will make manifest the weakness of God’s Saints and, as well, our failures, this is only to magnify the Power and Mercy of Him Who brought us into the place of testing. Further, and we must understand, God always has in view our ultimate good.” The bitter waters of Marah typify life and its disappointments.)


“24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink? (Three days before, the Children of Israel were rejoicing on the shores of the Red Sea. Now, some 72 hours later, they are “murmuring against Moses.” Such presents a lack of Faith. “Tests” brought upon us by the Lord portray what is in us. Regrettably, it doesn’t take much to bring out the unbelief.)

25 And he cried unto the LORD (Moses set the example; there is no help outside of the Lord, but man, even the Church, seem to find difficulty in believing this); and the LORD showed him a Tree (the “tree” is a Type of the Cross [Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; I Pet. 2:24]), which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet (we must put the Cross into every difficulty and problem of life, which alone holds the answer; only by this means can the bitter waters be made “sweet”): there He (God) made for them a Statute and an Ordinance, and there He proved them (tested them! We must understand that God doesn’t give victory to men, only to Christ; His Victory becomes ours, as we are properly in Him [Jn. 14:20; Rom. 6:3-5]),

26 And said, If you will diligently hearken to the Voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in His Sight, and will give ear to His Commandments, and keep all His Statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD Who heals you. (It is demanded that all these “Statutes” and “Ordinances” be perfectly kept; however, no man can boast of such; Christ has perfectly kept all the Commandments and, as our Substitute, kept them perpetually. Looking to Him, we can claim this blessing. As well, the “healing” Promised here has to do not only with physical diseases but, as well, of emotional and spiritual diseases. The Cross is to be put into the bitter waters of these problems, whatever they might be. They can then be made sweet. The name “LORD,” in the Hebrew, as used here, is “Jehovah-Ropheka,” which means “Jehovah, the Healer.” Jehovah has proven Himself as the Deliverer of Israel, and now He proclaims Himself as their “Healer.”)”


Faith never retreats! Faith sees the problem and say problem, "there has never been a problem that my God has not been able to solve; there has never been a sickness that my God can not heal; there has never been a disease that my God can not rebuke!"

JSM
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#79
Well you are right it's not in the OP. But it is concerning when someone says they put their faith in Jesus Christ, not in any object, and this isn't a person who in any way denies that Christ was crucified and rose again - - it's concerning when a person is accused of departing from the faith solely on the basis of that. It makes you wonder whether the accuser regards the cross higher than the Lord who gave Himself on it.
It's not the temple which makes itself holy, but the God who dwells in it that sanctifies that temple by His presence.



That's not so.
He accepted worship, never rebuked anyone for worshiping Him and never told anyone to get up who knelt down before Him. This is amazing - no one else in scripture who was speaking for God or sent by God ever acted this way, whether angels or men they immediately stopped anyone who bowed before them and told them to worship God alone.

Example: John 20:28-29, where Thomas sees the resurrected Jesus, and His scars. Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" - which is worship - and instead of rebuking him Christ says Thomas is blessed and that Thomas truly believes.
You are assuming Thomas is calling Jesus my Lord and my God. No Thomas is decalring my Lord and my God i.e, referring to Jesus as Lord and my God referring to His Father. Throughout the new Testament Paul refers to Jesus as Lord AND God his Father. We know they are one and both at the same time but you seem not to understand they are two as well. Note Thomas doesnt say My Lord my God. He says my Lord AND my God.

Of course Jesus understands Thomas is referring to His Father. Dont assume that Jesus is accepting worship of himself!

When people assume things...well they make an ass out of u and me.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#80
What I have given you is types and shadows to study if the Lord Jesus has open up the gospel to you.
Worshipping Jesus, is also something Jesus himself wouldnt accept He would always point to His Father.
Could you please give us book, chapter, and verse?
Yes we call him Lord, but Jesus alone is the son not the Father.
Please explain.