Does salvation require repentance and perseverance?

[Deuteronomy]

One last thing, it seems clear that God wants those of us who belong to Him to know/have confidence & assurance that we are truly His, that we are truly in the faith/in Christ .. e.g. 1 John 5:13 cf John 5:24, 10:27-28. As I'm sure you are aware, much time is wasted (in doubt instead of service) when His true children are left wondering whether they are loved, forgiven and/or saved by Him or not, especially with the barrage of deceit, half-truths and lies that keep coming from our common enemy telling us that we are not. So knowing what the tests are that prove or demonstrate the truth of our claim is helpful (both for ourselves, and for helping others who the devil has already gotten to ).

There is also the matter of church membership. When I've had to change local churches, even within the same denomination, I've always had to prove who I am in Christ to become a member (anyone is allowed to attend services at the various churches that I've belonged to, but 'membership' is for Christians alone, so I've had to demonstrate/prove that I am one several times now since I became a Christian 33 years ago).

Have you not faced something similar when you joined your church?

Thanks again!

~Deut

 

[NayborBear]

They should have trusted in Jesus Christ alone for salvation instead of trusting in their works for salvation. For those who truly BELIEVE, shall not. In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.


John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.

Could you "define" some of these "works" for me? That one should not do?
The term "works?", Is always used so ambiguously, ya know?
People, especially, "these" people, need to KNOW where it is they have gone astray. Wouldn't you agree?
Are not these people JUST AS LOST as someone who doesn't know Christ, and also believe in Him, who SENT Jesus?

Ya know? That's not the issue here! The issue, is in just how to go abouts convincing and relearning these people! Or, is it you have no compassion for 'em? Is like they made their choice, or choices, and now it's just too friggin' bad, for 'em? Sorry Charlie?!? You AIN'T Starkist?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation can not be payed for.

If you could pay for it, or get it by your works. You do not need saved.

The reason you need saved, is because your situation is hopeless.

If people do not come to this realization. They will never trust in Christi. They will continue to trust in their works. And trying to earn or maintain something they could never earn in the first place.

 

[NayborBear]

Salvation can not be payed for.

If you could pay for it, or get it by your works. You do not need saved.

The reason you need saved, is because your situation is hopeless.

If people do not come to this realization. They will never trust in Christi. They will continue to trust in their works. And trying to earn or maintain something they could never earn in the first place.

I was asking MailManDan. But? You can answer the question also. Could you be more specific as to what "works" is? As faith WITHOUT "works?" Is DEAD! So, please declare as to what "works" one shouldn't engage in?
Be specific PLEASE!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was asking MailManDan. But? You can answer the question also. Could you be more specific as to what "works" is? As faith WITHOUT "works?" Is DEAD! So, please declare as to what "works" one shouldn't engage in?
Be specific PLEASE!

Who said anything about people not engaging in works.

Do you listen? I never said we should not be doing any works now did I?

Why is it you people always ASSUME we think we shoudl not be engaging in any works? Is it that hard for you to comprehend what people are saying?

 

[Sipsey]

NayborBear,
I have always gravitated to these verses in John when the question arises as to the definition of works, and it’s most vital meaning;

27Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval.” 28Then they inquired,“What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”…

 

[NayborBear]

Who said anything about people not engaging in works.

Do you listen? I never said we should not be doing any works now did I?

Why is it you people always ASSUME we think we shoudl not be engaging in any works? Is it that hard for you to comprehend what people are saying?

You also were not very sepecific in what "works", one should engage in, as opposed to what "works" one shouldn't engage in either!
Fact? You weren't specific a-tall, a-tall!

Shouting accusations and blowing gaskets "becomes" you EG!

Actually, it doesn't! But? It makes for a nice "flare for the dramatic!"

 

[NayborBear]

NayborBear,
I have always gravitated to these verses in John when the question arises as to the definition of works, and it’s most vital meaning;

27Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval.” 28Then they inquired,“What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”…

I agree with that statement.

Also? Believe in He who sent Christ! The "crux of the biscut", so to speak!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You also were not very sepecific in what "works", one should engage in, as opposed to what "works" one shouldn't engage in either!
Fact? You weren't specific a-tall, a-tall!

Shouting accusations and blowing gaskets "becomes" you EG!

Actually, it doesn't! But? It makes for a nice "flare for the dramatic!"

Dude,

Your the one accusing not me, so get off your high horse


I NEVER SAID ONE SHOULD NOT ENGAGE IN WORKS. Those are YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.

My conversation was based on the MOTIVATION of works (why people do them) Not that one should not engage in works or not do certain works.

If your going to lie and be dishonest about what people are syaing, You hurt your own case dude.

So you have a choice. Respond and question me based on what I SAID

Or continue to try to TWIST what I said and continue to make yourself look like your trying to hide something.

The choice is yours.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NayborBear,
I have always gravitated to these verses in John when the question arises as to the definition of works, and it’s most vital meaning;

27Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval.” 28Then they inquired,“What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”…

So by these words of Jesus

What works are required to

1. Be saved
2. Maintain our salvation or keep us from losing it?

 

[NayborBear]

Dude,

Your the one accusing not me, so get off your high horse


I NEVER SAID ONE SHOULD NOT ENGAGE IN WORKS. Those are YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.

My conversation was based on the MOTIVATION of works (why people do them) Not that one should not engage in works or not do certain works.

If your going to lie and be dishonest about what people are syaing, You hurt your own case dude.

So you have a choice. Respond and question me based on what I SAID

Or continue to try to TWIST what I said and continue to make yourself look like your trying to hide something.

The choice is yours.

Always the "straw man" with you ain't it, EG?

To be honest? You answered my question I was asking MailManDan. But you probably can't see it.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Always the "straw man" with you ain't it, EG?

To be honest? You answered my question I was asking MailManDan. But you probably can't see it.

John 3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What straw man? Can you ever be honest? It seems like its a joke with you.

All I did was make a statement, and you came back claiming I said something I did not say. And keep asking me to say something I never insinuated.

Here is your issue

My salvation is based on faith, And my works are a RESULT of that faith

Your teaching you maintain your salvation by your works

Ie. We have motivation.

We both probably do the same works. However yours are self MOTIVATED, Mine are OTHER MOTIVATED.

 

[Sipsey]

So by these words of Jesus

What works are required to

1. Be saved
2. Maintain our salvation or keep us from losing it?

So by these words of Jesus

What works are required to

1. Be saved
2. Maintain our salvation or keep us from losing it?

“The” work of God is this....... The word The is emphatic, meaning it is the uttermost work, of preeminence. Belief or trust is a non meritorious path to salvation. The “object” (The Christ) of our faith determines our fate. If we are incapable by our own effort to work out our initial forgiveness of sin, what makes one think they can then maintain, with further human effort, the gift bestowed upon them?

So then;
Titus 3:5
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I think too many Christians confuse works with salvation, instead of rewards.

 

[NayborBear]

“The” work of God is this....... The word The is emphatic, meaning it is the uttermost work, of preeminence. Belief or trust is a non meritorious path to salvation. The “object” (The Christ) of our faith determines our fate. If we are incapable by our own effort to work out our initial forgiveness of sin, what makes one think they can then maintain, with further human effort, the gift bestowed upon them?

So then;
Titus 3:5
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I think too many Christians confuse works with salvation, instead of rewards.

Those types always do man! They believe that being saved gives them a "front row seat" in heaven, so to speak. Not that being saved is bad! Indeed NOT! It's AWESOME! Some peoples faith cannot handle inheriting all the Kingdom has, and is! And? That's OK with me! Others? Are not so ok with it, and see these "works" as working for, or maintaining one's salvation! And? Are therefore WRONG! Wrong in talking like that? And wrong for teaching like that.

And, it's what I've been saying for lo onto 4 years in the BDF now .

Some people don't know what they don't know? And, some people know they don't wanna know! AND? Go to some pretty accusative extremes trying to ensure that people that don't know, what they don't know? Don't NEED to know. And, be just like them!

Well? Homey don't play dat game! Been dare on dat stoney ground! And dat? Ain't nowhere man! And nowhere one wants to be on that great and terrible "Day of the Lord!" You can "bet the farm" on it!

 

[Word_Swordsman]

2 Peter 1 answers how not to fall. Folks can sing OSAS all they want but there’s too much contradiction. That passage obviously answers whether a Christian can fall by providing the way to avoid falling.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

“The” work of God is this....... The word The is emphatic, meaning it is the uttermost work, of preeminence. Belief or trust is a non meritorious path to salvation. The “object” (The Christ) of our faith determines our fate. If we are incapable by our own effort to work out our initial forgiveness of sin, what makes one think they can then maintain, with further human effort, the gift bestowed upon them?

So then;
Titus 3:5
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I think too many Christians confuse works with salvation, instead of rewards.

They do, because this is human nature

Who wants other people to pay for their own crimes? It is human nature to feel the need and desire to make up for your own mistakes, it helps you feel better about yourself. Its called pride. Pride refuses to acknowledge that we are so sinful we can not even help ourselves. It needs, it demands, that it must help. So it will reject grace. And do what it takes to convince themselves that you can add works and still be saved by grace. Thats why the gate is so narrow. And why so FEW will enter in.

There are alot of professed christians

Sadly, there are few real believers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those types always do man! They believe that being saved gives them a "front row seat" in heaven, so to speak. Not that being saved is bad! Indeed NOT! It's AWESOME! Some peoples faith cannot handle inheriting all the Kingdom has, and is! And? That's OK with me! Others? Are not so ok with it, and see these "works" as working for, or maintaining one's salvation! And? Are therefore WRONG! Wrong in talking like that? And wrong for teaching like that.

And, it's what I've been saying for lo onto 4 years in the BDF now .

Some people don't know what they don't know? And, some people know they don't wanna know! AND? Go to some pretty accusative extremes trying to ensure that people that don't know, what they don't know? Don't NEED to know. And, be just like them!

Well? Homey don't play dat game! Been dare on dat stoney ground! And dat? Ain't nowhere man! And nowhere one wants to be on that great and terrible "Day of the Lord!" You can "bet the farm" on it!

Yep

So you and people like you will continue to preach works as a means to in the end earn your place on the right side on that great and terrible day of the lord,

The only problem is, Your works will not pay for one sin,

Jesus gave you the warning, sayin on that day people will praise all their hard works they did in jesus name and use all these many great deeds as the reason God shoudl let them in, And jesus will just say depart He never knew them.

One must remember, according to the law Even paul admitted he was blameless. There was not a soul in his day who could look at him and use the law to show him being an evil sinner, He was a righteous man,

Sadly, it was self righteousness, Because it was religion. Not the type of work he did AFTER he came to christ, Where his goal was loving and serving others. And not for serving self.

Paul called himself the chief of all sinners. When according to the world. He grew up a righteous person who spent his whole life doing the work of God (so he thought)

Don’t think because people are religious and do all these great works of the church are saved just because they do them Satan has perverted the church just like he did the jews Adding works righteousness to the gospel. Making them really no different than pharisees. People who think they are doing Gods will. And are probably very morally upright people who do alot of great works, but are just as lost as the rapist and murderer.

As I said earlier (which you have still failed to properly respond to)

It is not the works which matter, it is the motivation behind the works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Peter 1 answers how not to fall. Folks can sing OSAS all they want but there’s too much contradiction. That passage obviously answers whether a Christian can fall by providing the way to avoid falling.

If we can fall

1. We are not saved
2. We do not have eternal life (we have conditional)
3. We are not sealed by the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption
4. We are not justified
5. We are not perfected forever in the process of being sanctified
6. We will hunger, thirst, die, and are not assured of being risen on the last day like God promised in John 6
7. We are not redeemed
8. We do not have the rivers of living water flowing to eternal life
9. We have not recieved an inheritance which is incorruptible.
10. We are not true children of God. We are in a state of testing to see if we will qualify to become children, and only those who make it will eventually get in
11. We have not been born again,
12. We are not kings and priests
13. Etc etc etc


I can go on and on and on.

But I pray deeply you see the picture of what the bible says about those who have come to him in faith, like the tax collector did when he got on his knees.

 

[NayborBear]

Yep

So you and people like you will continue to preach works as a means to in the end earn your place on the right side on that great and terrible day of the lord,

The only problem is, Your works will not pay for one sin,

Jesus gave you the warning, sayin on that day people will praise all their hard works they did in jesus name and use all these many great deeds as the reason God shoudl let them in, And jesus will just say depart He never knew them.

One must remember, according to the law Even paul admitted he was blameless. There was not a soul in his day who could look at him and use the law to show him being an evil sinner, He was a righteous man,

Sadly, it was self righteousness, Because it was religion. Not the type of work he did AFTER he came to christ, Where his goal was loving and serving others. And not for serving self.

Paul called himself the chief of all sinners. When according to the world. He grew up a righteous person who spent his whole life doing the work of God (so he thought)

Don’t think because people are religious and do all these great works of the church are saved just because they do them Satan has perverted the church just like he did the jews Adding works righteousness to the gospel. Making them really no different than pharisees. People who think they are doing Gods will. And are probably very morally upright people who do alot of great works, but are just as lost as the rapist and murderer.

As I said earlier (which you have still failed to properly respond to)

It is not the works which matter, it is the motivation behind the works.

I suppose I should ask your forgiveness, in saying things your faith cannot bare. But? That ain't gonna happen.
I "get", the fact that you don't "get it!" Because, in your eyes? You already have it! The traditions of man, is what prevents you from "getting it." I can't MAKE you, or anyone else "get it!" That's between you and God! I can only testify that there is so much more then is being taught. In "churches of stone", as well, as here in the BDF.
Because, you see? It requires EFFORTS in removing the blinders, traditions of man make the "Word of God", flow in and through one that believes. This happens, or should occur in ALL the "fruit of the Spirit!" And not be "confined" (God in a box) to just one fruit. Namely, love! This "practice" of doing this? Is one is "RELYING ON the Grace of God," (IOW, TESTING God! Just as the nation of Israel did. some unkowingly? Some WILLINGLY ignorant of). Whilst the rest of the "fruit of the Spirit", that is (also) striving in baring "good" fruit within the believer, keeps getting the "run around/work around", while the believer keeps right on letting it "rot" on the vine, so to speak.
To the point, that many believers see Christ as "standing in the Temple AS God!" Although, God thought it NOT ROBBERY, that the Lamb slain, be CALLED God? Christ, by ALL his work and sacrifice? Is NOT, nor ever WILL be? His own Father!

So, what you call "works", in gaining, or maintaining one's salvation? I "see" as those children of Israel, when God was "trying/testing" THEIR faith? In saying: "God has BROUGHT us out here TO DIE!!" "Let's go BACK to "Pharoah's" grace!"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suppose I should ask your forgiveness, in saying things your faith cannot bare. But? That ain't gonna happen.
I "get", the fact that you don't "get it!" Because, in your eyes? You already have it! The traditions of man, is what prevents you from "getting it." I can't MAKE you, or anyone else "get it!" That's between you and God! I can only testify that there is so much more then is being taught. In "churches of stone", as well, as here in the BDF.
Because, you see? It requires EFFORTS in removing the blinders, traditions of man make the "Word of God", flow in and through one that believes. This happens, or should occur in ALL the "fruit of the Spirit!" And not be "confined" (God in a box) to just one fruit. Namely, love! This "practice" of doing this? Is one is "RELYING ON the Grace of God," (IOW, TESTING God! Just as the nation of Israel did. some unkowingly? Some WILLINGLY ignorant of). Whilst the rest of the "fruit of the Spirit", that is (also) striving in baring "good" fruit within the believer, keeps getting the "run around/work around", while the believer keeps right on letting it "rot" on the vine, so to speak.
To the point, that many believers see Christ as "standing in the Temple AS God!" Although, God thought it NOT ROBBERY, that the Lamb slain, be CALLED God? Christ, by ALL his work and sacrifice? Is NOT, nor ever WILL be? His own Father!

So, what you call "works", in gaining, or maintaining one's salvation? I "see" as those children of Israel, when God was "trying/testing" THEIR faith? In saying: "God has BROUGHT us out here TO DIE!!" "Let's go BACK to "Pharoah's" grace!"

You still do not get it

When God says it is a gift it is a gift.

You work for and earn wages or rewards. A gift is paid in full by the giver.

You want to “gain or maintain” you salvation by works. That is trying to earn a wage or reward. Paul made it clear. Even abraham could not EARN his righteousness by works, He was GIVEN righteousness as a gift because he had faith.

You want to earn your salvation, feel free. But

1. Stop denying it
2. Stop attacking and belittling those who are against it
3. Own it!

I own my belief system, I back up what I believe, I do not deny it.. Try it once, you might enjoy some freedom