Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.
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E
I have changed my views in many ways. (I actually bought into dual covenant as a teenager and only in the last 20 years changed that view)
What problems did you find with futurism?
While I see problems wiht some views (like I said I have changed my view on some of them)
I see more issues with preterism, including the hard to miss issue I just showed you. Why have those things not yet happened?
What problems did you find with futurism?
While I see problems wiht some views (like I said I have changed my view on some of them)
I see more issues with preterism, including the hard to miss issue I just showed you. Why have those things not yet happened?
E
Yes you did misquote me
As for the rest, Your trying to comapir AD 70 with WW1 and WW2, Which is not even possible.
I gave a list of things which showed these two great wars to be far worse than anything that could possibly happen in AD 70. (If I remember, you never responded to that post?). Body count is just one aspect. Almost every other aspect possible in any way can also be considered far greater than anythign possible in AD 70
As for the rest, Your trying to comapir AD 70 with WW1 and WW2, Which is not even possible.
I gave a list of things which showed these two great wars to be far worse than anything that could possibly happen in AD 70. (If I remember, you never responded to that post?). Body count is just one aspect. Almost every other aspect possible in any way can also be considered far greater than anythign possible in AD 70
I tried to research the death toll from around the ww1 time-frame once. Why was me and several others were looking historically and Scriptural at the forth horseman(sword,famine,pestilence,beast ect.). In 1911 there were 1.750biliion world wide population. In casualties they estimate around 50 million solders but when they try to calculate the civilian death toll into this they could never come to an agreed number.
The reason is that ww1 involved army's from most of the nations in the world being shipped from all over the earth to the battles and their wounded by 1917-1919 filled most every hospital. then in around 1917 the HN51 flu began and those who caught it were in the same hospital's as the solders and they were infected. HN51 flu across those years modified it's own self and instead of being most lethal in the W/U groups(old and young) it attacked those who were with the stronger immune systems(the healthy).
By then the solders who were in the hospitals were being sent back home and so it spread world wide. It baffled the doctors of that day because it evolved/modified it's own self across about 2 years and went from cows,birds pigs to humans ect. infecting them all and then by about Sept./Oct. of 1919 it modified it's own self again and went back dormant. By the end of this series of events so many millions had died that no one knows if they died in battle or of wounds they received or the flu ect. so the numbers are approx. 1/4 to 1/3 of the population of the earth but no one really knows.
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Hi thanks for the reply..
That verse is saying; on the last day the ends will come. It is the fulfillment of the last times , when the mother hen gathers them up.
Grace is not a time sensitive word.
I would offer... The verse is simply saying at the time grace was given to Paul. The same grace given to us. As Paul stated.. which was given to me for you, which includes us, in Christ.
To me somethings should not be divided. The possibility of losing the meaning is there to change the meaning and violate the law (do not add unto a word singular)...Especially if they are not time sensitive words . We have to be careful of the counterfeiter who turns things upside down calling the things God calls separate , as is they were one and vice versa. We would not want to do despite to his grace in any time period. Abels' blood cries out His grace is suffice as the power that works in us, with us to both will and do His good pleasure . We are to work with him with no murmuring. He is our Father and God
That verse is saying; on the last day the ends will come. It is the fulfillment of the last times , when the mother hen gathers them up.
Grace is not a time sensitive word.
I would offer... The verse is simply saying at the time grace was given to Paul. The same grace given to us. As Paul stated.. which was given to me for you, which includes us, in Christ.
To me somethings should not be divided. The possibility of losing the meaning is there to change the meaning and violate the law (do not add unto a word singular)...Especially if they are not time sensitive words . We have to be careful of the counterfeiter who turns things upside down calling the things God calls separate , as is they were one and vice versa. We would not want to do despite to his grace in any time period. Abels' blood cries out His grace is suffice as the power that works in us, with us to both will and do His good pleasure . We are to work with him with no murmuring. He is our Father and God
Yes it is there also lets look at Matthew 24:22 and Matthew 24:9 where it says "my names sake" and why is you are looking for it's fulfillment,,,, in ad66-70 how many of the Jews involved died for Jesus names sake? You see 1.1millon Jews died by ad70 in the revolt but none of them believed that Jesus was the Messiah and so none of them died "for his names sake" right?
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U
Mr SoandSo I appreciate your rational approach...
You raise a good point.....Matthew 24:9 is prior to AD 70 when the believers were being persecuted
Matthew 24:22 One thought that I am thinking on as read the scriptures and look at the history is that...Jesus is telling us God intervenes prior to AD 70 in AD 66 with the arrival of Florus and the Roman army, the entire discourse if one knows their history is like a playbook of the Roman army, we know the saints are preserved from the beast according to Revelation 7.
Verse 21 Jesus restarts and adds more detail to what He has already stated.
You raise a good point.....Matthew 24:9 is prior to AD 70 when the believers were being persecuted
Matthew 24:22 One thought that I am thinking on as read the scriptures and look at the history is that...Jesus is telling us God intervenes prior to AD 70 in AD 66 with the arrival of Florus and the Roman army, the entire discourse if one knows their history is like a playbook of the Roman army, we know the saints are preserved from the beast according to Revelation 7.
Verse 21 Jesus restarts and adds more detail to what He has already stated.
E
I think you are just looking for excuses not to see. I doubt there is anything I can say which will show you what I meand and what so many others see. Maybe it is because you have never been in a war, or been in training of any military value, So I will give you the benefit of the doubt based on ignorance.
But no matter what, I just pray, you see what is missed by so many people in jesus words.
Matt 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
With a focus on the following items
1. It can;t be talking about Isreal. Israel was not even a land at the beginning of time, let alone a nation
2. It can’t be just Isreal. Because jesus did nto say no Jew would be saved, He said no life, or flesh, or liv ing creature would survive if he did not return, (This was not even possible in AD 70)
3. Those days are shortened for the elects sake. (If Christ did not return, there would be no life here on earth left)
And you see an OT passage which speaks of the same event, which the disciples would have immediatly thought of when Jesus said these things, and understood completely what he meant.
Jer 30:
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’
12 “For thus says the Lord:
‘Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
15 Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.
16 ‘Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
17 For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the Lord,
‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’
18 “Thus says the Lord:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own [d]mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the Lord.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord
Goes forth with fury,
A [e]continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.
Then you will notice
1. God spoke of Isreal sin, and how he will scatter her all over the earth for their sin (fulfuilled in 70 AD)
2. In the latter days (vs 24) which also the disciples asked about the sign of the last days, same time period) God will remember
3. He will gather them together
4. He will punish those who afflicted them.
5. He will use this time of great tribulation, such as never has been seen, to bring about salvation, and cause Isreal to repent (but you shall be saved out of it) (see also rev 13. The woman is spared. Her children suffer severely)
6. Then he will set up his kingdom (see matt 24, when jesus returns, Splits th emount of olives and sets up his throne)
7. Isreal, after repenting, Will multiply greatly and live in peace.
Israel was destroyed in AD 70 as prophesied. You can not say this also was the time of her restoration. They are two different events.
Prophesy must taken as a whole. Not taken apart. And mutilated to the point it fits our belief, and no longer is unified.
But no matter what, I just pray, you see what is missed by so many people in jesus words.
Matt 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
With a focus on the following items
1. It can;t be talking about Isreal. Israel was not even a land at the beginning of time, let alone a nation
2. It can’t be just Isreal. Because jesus did nto say no Jew would be saved, He said no life, or flesh, or liv ing creature would survive if he did not return, (This was not even possible in AD 70)
3. Those days are shortened for the elects sake. (If Christ did not return, there would be no life here on earth left)
And you see an OT passage which speaks of the same event, which the disciples would have immediatly thought of when Jesus said these things, and understood completely what he meant.
Jer 30:
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’
12 “For thus says the Lord:
‘Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
14 All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
15 Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.
16 ‘Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
17 For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,’ says the Lord,
‘Because they called you an outcast saying:
“This is Zion;
No one seeks her.” ’
18 “Thus says the Lord:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own [d]mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the Lord.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord
Goes forth with fury,
A [e]continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.
Then you will notice
1. God spoke of Isreal sin, and how he will scatter her all over the earth for their sin (fulfuilled in 70 AD)
2. In the latter days (vs 24) which also the disciples asked about the sign of the last days, same time period) God will remember
3. He will gather them together
4. He will punish those who afflicted them.
5. He will use this time of great tribulation, such as never has been seen, to bring about salvation, and cause Isreal to repent (but you shall be saved out of it) (see also rev 13. The woman is spared. Her children suffer severely)
6. Then he will set up his kingdom (see matt 24, when jesus returns, Splits th emount of olives and sets up his throne)
7. Isreal, after repenting, Will multiply greatly and live in peace.
Israel was destroyed in AD 70 as prophesied. You can not say this also was the time of her restoration. They are two different events.
Prophesy must taken as a whole. Not taken apart. And mutilated to the point it fits our belief, and no longer is unified.
You could have asked rather than assumed.
Here is what David said, ..."Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." (Rom 4:7)
Here is what you say..."David cannot be talking about himself because, as I have stated, God took away his Son after he sinned."
here is what Nathan the prophet said, "2 Samuel 12:13 (KJV) And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."
David was under the same grace as us while he walked by faith and not by law.. as you seem to think.
I think you need to put away your MAD Systematic Theology books and pick up the Scriptures instead.
Here is what David said, ..."Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." (Rom 4:7)
Here is what you say..."David cannot be talking about himself because, as I have stated, God took away his Son after he sinned."
here is what Nathan the prophet said, "2 Samuel 12:13 (KJV) And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."
David was under the same grace as us while he walked by faith and not by law.. as you seem to think.
I think you need to put away your MAD Systematic Theology books and pick up the Scriptures instead.
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Which also seems that you are referring to Wars 2 and so you know that Floras was basically considered to be the cause of the war/revolt and so then you should be aware that the Jews themselves in chapters 10,11 are accused of "Impiety"(but throughout Wars 2) which means they did not see Caesar as anything other than a man(especially not God)? And that each and every time they(Romans) tried to pollute the temple of God by setting their images it was met with defiance of the Jews and ended in war?(doesn't match Rev. 13 at all)
But back to the ones who have the "testimony of Jesus Christ"(those who can die for Jesus names sake) and it is clear that those among the 1.1 million(Jewish revolt) nor those among the 6-9 million(ww2) could be the ones mentioned in Rev.(and other Christian writings) who the devil/beast kills but instead those Scriptures are denoting those who believe in Jesus Christ,correct?