Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[eternally-gratefull]

The daily sacrifice as a shadow that represented Christ was taken away at the time of reformation. The veil was rent all of the shadows of the ceremonial laws no longer were needed . Christ had come in the flesh. The one time demonstration is over. The antichrists are revealed as those who are hoping the vail will be mended and wall built up as if the kingdom did come by observing with the eyes.. rather than walking by the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God not seen

Not sure where you get the future temple idea? The body of Christ as of the reformation is the temple of God after the new manner of priesthood no longer after levi, a outward Jew.. God had finished using Jewish flesh as a metaphor to represent as mankind in respect to both faith, and unbelief, no faith. Just as with the animal some represented belief others the opposite the same with food clean and unclean .

The government was restored to a period when there was no temple in Israel (the period of Judges). To construct one would be to violate having the things seen the temporal stand in the Holy unseen place of God. Even the Son of man, Jesus refused to stand in that holy place of the faith of God .The Christians one source of faith .He replied only God (not seen is good)

So when Christ died, and the veil was rent in two. The abomination fo desolation was standing in the HP?

And by the way, Sacrifice and burt offering also continued until ad 70. Of course it NEVER took away sin. So even while christ walked the earth it was useless for salvation.

 

[garee]

You mean when the daily sacrifice is taken away?

This is prophesy, not allegory or parable. So how do you come to that conclusion? Is not prophesy a fortelling of future events?

Parables are prophecy . Without prophecy Christ the anointing Holy Spirit spoke not. Prophecy is the word of God's law .Prophets prophecy by declaring the word of God interpretation . The Christian's new tongue the gospel of prophecy .Many confuse it with fortune telling.

Fortunately it tells past present and future .Not just the future.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Parables are prophecy .

If parables were prophesy they would be called prophesy man.

Prophesy is fortelling future events,

Parables are using known events or things to try to explain a spiritual truth.

Without prophecy Christ the anointing Holy Spirit spoke not. Prophecy is the word of God's law .Prophets prophecy by declaring the word of God interpretation . The Christian's new tongue the gospel of prophecy .Many confuse it with fortune telling.

Fortunately it tells past present and future .Not just the future.

Do what? Where do you come up with these ideas? What church organization do you belong to? I have never heard many of the things you say

 

[garee]

So when Christ died, and the veil was rent in two. The abomination fo desolation was standing in the HP?

And by the way, Sacrifice and burt offering also continued until ad 70. Of course it NEVER took away sin. So even while christ walked the earth it was useless for salvation.

Yes something did remain seen but the metaphors used in that parable lost there value when the reformation came . The vail remains rent. Only one demonstration promised .No second showings.

The walls furniture, curtain loops ,candles everything seen as a shadow that remained lost purpose as a shadow when the vail was rent.

There is remnant of a wall that men cry out to . The unbelieving Jew to this day use it as idol in hope of Christ coming.

It that remains stands in the holy place as that seen. Just as the serpent stood in the holy place in the beginning destroying faith the unseen Holy place of God.

The revealing of the man of sin the antichrist. (Unbelieving Jew) who were used to represent unbelieving mankind as well as those who do have the Spirit of Christ. (a inward Jew) to represent faith, again in respect to mankind not their own flesh, the flesh of all men

They are shown as liars as antichrists, (another mediator) other than the father and Son working as one. They again are used to represent mankind that deny both the son and the father ..(one package) Jesus cut them off from the purpose never to be used again . when the veil was rent signaled by the words of Christ it is finished the last words. The shadows all disappeared

John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[crossnote]

Just to be fair though my friend it would be quite difficult to go back through even this thread and defend ourselves if one of the Amills or peterist turned the same argument around on us.

LOL, that's why I titled this thread ...Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

 

[crossnote]

The daily sacrifice as a shadow that represented Christ was taken away at the time of reformation. The veil was rent all of the shadows of the ceremonial laws no longer were needed . Christ had come in the flesh. The one time demonstration is over. The antichrists are revealed as those who are hoping the vail will be mended and wall built up as if the kingdom did come by observing with the eyes.. rather than walking by the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God not seen

Not sure where you get the future temple idea? The body of Christ as of the reformation is the temple of God after the new manner of priesthood no longer after levi, a outward Jew.. God had finished using Jewish flesh as a metaphor to represent as mankind in respect to both faith, and unbelief, no faith. Just as with the animal some represented belief others the opposite the same with food clean and unclean .

The government was restored to a period when there was no temple in Israel (the period of Judges). To construct one would be to violate having the things seen the temporal stand in the Holy unseen place of God. Even the Son of man, Jesus refused to stand in that holy place of the faith of God .The Christians one source of faith .He replied only God (not seen is good)

You completely passed over explaining the 'a thousand two hundred and ninety days', how convenient.

Daniel 12:11 ESV
[11] And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

 

[Journeyman]

You mean when the daily sacrifice is taken away?

I mean the people who were in favor of offering "the daily sacrifice" (a spotless lamb morning and evening) are the people who wanted Jesus dead. Wanting Jesus dead is antichrist.

This is prophesy, not allegory or parable. So how do you come to that conclusion? Is not prophesy a fortelling of future events?

Jesus spoke prophecy in parables.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I mean the people who were in favor of offering "the daily sacrifice" (a spotless lamb morning and evening) are the people who wanted Jesus dead. Wanting Jesus dead is antichrist.

Jesus spoke prophecy in parables.

Um no,

Jesus told us what was going to happen. And the OT supports his claims that certain events woudl take place.

I agree, the people who did sacrifice wanted Jesus dead, In the future, when the abomination of desolation is set up. The same people would still want jesus dead. it is the tribulation period. Or as Jeremiah called it, the time of Jacob’s trouble, which will cause these jews to repent, and finally confess Jesus as Lord.

 

[garee]

If parables were prophesy they would be called prophesy man.

Prophesy is fortelling future events,

Parables are using known events or things to try to explain a spiritual truth.



Do what? Where do you come up with these ideas? What church organization do you belong to? I have never heard many of the things you say

My private interpretation as my bias comes from personal bible study . God has commanded us to study to show our approval unto Him. He has given us all the tools necessary to accomplish his commandment .Where do you come up with your ideas ?

Where did you get the future telling only theory from? Sounds like the idea; if the first sense makes common sense don't look any further. The more literal approach compared to the signified, the language God seems to have chosen to reveal the gospel ..

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent "and" signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

If that was the case "future telling only". Where are Christian getting their living abiding faith from today? John was the last prophet to bring new prophecy before God sealed up that possibility to add with 7 seals. If its future telling only

It as the faith that comes from hearing God in any generation

The Catholics as a law of their fathers say prophesying was passed on from Peter (private revelations) .They called it Apostolic succession destroying the meaning of apostle, the word prophet. with one stroke of their written aw of the fathers. CCC Making corrupted man the living source of faith . Making the word of God to effect.

It seems basic words needed to understand simply are not defined today at least from my experiences. That includes public schools as well as Sunday school.. Prophecy as parables are simply one of the manners . Tongues another,. Wet fleece dry ground fleece wet ground another. Drawing straw for the new #12 apostle or are not effect by time .they can aid in understanding the times.

Parables, as prophecy, like tongues as prophecy also used as a parable are using known events or things to try to explain a spiritual truth. They are the historically true giving a literal account of history as well as to define a hidden manna used to preach the gospel beforehand.

And the walls came tumbling down (hiding the spiritual meaning in that parable), blood was applied to the door frames,.(hiding the spiritual meaning in that parable) after 40 days the rain stopped (hiding the spiritual meaning in that parable),, And he fed them mana in the wilderness(hiding the spiritual meaning in that parable), the Sea was dried up,(hiding the spiritual meaning in that parable) he sent a ram to replace Issac (hiding the spiritual meaning in that parable )

God continued his parable without parables he spoke not .

Proverbs, as prophecy ,God's word are a different kind of parable more of a moral story . (not historacal )

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Its why he has given us the 20/20 prescription above so that we can seek out the spiritual understanding. The whole period of Kings in Israel was set aside as parable that uses the signified language.

Without parable like the period in Egypt or creation Christ spoke not hiding the spiritual understanding from those who walk by sight.

If we do not have the spiritual understanding how could we compare nothing to nothing ? we are to compare the spiritual (not seen) understanding to the same. faith to faith not that seen to that not seen with the eye. Aagin the things which are not seen are eternal.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (Parable) for "the time then present", in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of "reformation" Hebrews 9

 

[Journeyman]

Um no,

Jesus told us what was going to happen. And the OT supports his claims that certain events woudl take place.

I agree, the people who did sacrifice wanted Jesus dead, In the future, when the abomination of desolation is set up. The same people would still want jesus dead. it is the tribulation period. Or as Jeremiah called it, the time of Jacob’s trouble, which will cause these jews to repent, and finally confess Jesus as Lord.

Jesus told parables about the future and explained them to his disciples. The time of Jacob's trouble isn't about the persecution of Jews. Its about the persecution of God's people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus told parables about the future and explained them to his disciples. The time of Jacob's trouble isn't about the persecution of Jews. Its about the persecution of God's people.

Jesus told parables to help all of us understand spiritual truths

Jesus told the disciples literal events which would take place

The time of Jacobs trouble is used to get Jacob to repent it is worldwide and effects all people

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus told parables about the future and explained them to his disciples. The time of Jacob's trouble isn't about the persecution of Jews. Its about the persecution of God's people.

That's one of the primary purposes of "the time of Jacob's trouble"... to turn them into God's people (they will come to faith within/during the 7-yr trib/70th Wk, AFTER our Rapture). This is what "the birth PANGS" [aka the SEALS] are slated for, etc...


Romans 9:26 [re: Israel (whereas v.25 is about the Gentiles/Hos2:23b)] -

"And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them [Israel], Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."


Hosea 1:10 [bsb] -

"Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’"


The Olivet Discourse is not covering the Subject of our Rapture, but rather the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (and the specific limited time period which leads UP TO that) which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth [Lk12:36-37-38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (that is, as an "already-wed Bridegroom" ) THEN the meal; i.e. the earthly MK]


Most of the parables Jesus gave speak of Israel and their future (at least, a great many of them do)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT: "The Olivet Discourse is not covering the Subject of our Rapture, but rather the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [promised to Israel] (and the specific limited time period which leads UP TO that)…"



[parallel passages regarding Israel's future: Ezek37:12-14,21-23 (dry bones prophecy); Dan12:1-4 (not a physical/bodily resurrection, but Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered); Rom11:15(25) (same); Isa26:16-21 (note the "birth PANGS"); Hos5:15-6:3 (note timing issue); Jn6:39 (distinct from v.40); etc]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The persecution of "the Church which is His body" (of which we are a part) has been [and will continue to be] happening all throughout its existence on the earth (from the first century; see 2Th1:4, etc)… we are not awaiting a future specific limited time period [involving the man of sin, Seals/Trumpets/Vials / "the beginning of birth PANGS" (etc)] in order to experience it.

That is not its purpose.

 

[crossnote]

The persecution of "the Church which is His body" (of which we are a part) has been [and will continue to be] happening all throughout its existence on the earth (from the first century; see 2Th1:4, etc)… we are not awaiting a future specific limited time period [involving the man of sin, Seals/Trumpets/Vials / "the beginning of birth PANGS" (etc)] in order to experience it.

That is not its purpose.

There is a world of difference between tribulation by man (first 3 1/2 years and the wrath of God second 3 1/2 years).

1st. 3 1/2 -man's
θλῖψις thlîpsis, thlip'-sis
from G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

2nd 3 1/2 God's
ὀργή orgḗ, or-gay'
from G3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is a world of difference between tribulation by man (first 3 1/2 years and the wrath of God second 3 1/2 years).
1st. 3 1/2 -man's θλῖψις thlîpsis, thlip'-sis
from G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
2nd 3 1/2 God's ὀργή orgḗ, or-gay'
from G3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

I made a couple different posts in this thread about what I believe 1Th1:10's ["the One delivering us out from the wrath coming"] refers to and covers, which (for one) I believe when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (opening Seal #1) parallels the wording in both 2Th2:7b-8a "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be]" and Lamentations 2:3-4 "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" (effectively saying, "let 'er rip! have at it!"). I do not believe the "wrath" is confined merely to the 2nd half of the trib, and includes all of the "wrath" (including Satan's and man's), the verse just says, "the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" (here, it does not specify merely "God's" wrath; granted I believe He is the One in control of when it is all permitted to be unleashed [i.e. Seal #1 and following--recall I'd said Seal #2 Wars includes the Gog-Magog War, Ezek38:18,19; 39:7 etc]).

This is my understanding of that issue. Thanks.

 

[UnderGrace]

SMH

AD 70 as he said 1 million jews died

WW2. Almost 6 million jews died, And over 70 million people were killed. And talk about atrocities? Have you studied WW2.

I suggest before you make comments like I highlighted. You actually study yourself. To see that I agree with what Jesus said, thats why I CAN NOT believe ad 70 was the great tribulation. For that to be true, it would have to be GREATER than WW1 and WW2 and the historical facts do not support that.

Shake your head some more.....what was the total population in 70 AD involved in the conflict and then do the math correctly, historians do not compare apples to oranges, they control for the variables.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Additionally, you may recall that I believe Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" speaks specifically of the entire 7-yr/70th-Wk time period [i.e. 1:19c/4:1's FUTURE aspects of the Book] parallel with both [of the same phrase in] Lk18:8[end of chpt 17 context] where it says "AVENGE [G1557] in quickness [noun]" (and the "in quickness [noun]" in Rom16:20 [<--this one said to "the Church which is His body" in THIS context (distinct location; same time frame)]);

...so we see two words of note in a verse like Romans 13:4 [this verse speaking of human governments/rulers in the present time; so, a different context, but I'm just pointing out the usage of some words here] where it says [present rulers on the earth are set, to presently be] "an avenger [G1558] for wrath [to execute wrath [G3709] / orge]" (note: again, I'm not saying this is the same context as that future time frame we are discussing)... do you see where I'm going with this though? (too pressed for time to elaborate more fully)

 

[garee]

You completely passed over explaining the 'a thousand two hundred and ninety days', how convenient.

Daniel 12:11 ESV
[11] And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

I was not asked that question . What about it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Shake your head some more.....what was the total population in 70 AD involved in the conflict and then do the math correctly, historians do not compare apples to oranges, they control for the variables.

I will shake my head

Every historian you talk to will say WW2 was the worst and most catastrophic war the world has ever seen.

No one will even put AD70 anywhere close to what occured

I will be honest, I do not see why you are so hesitant to see what really happened and the difference between these two events.

I mean really. Just because the popuation was not as big?

1 million vs 6 million

1 million vs 70 - 8 million

The size of the population does not matter, each life is or was worth something, and it was snuffed out. And these deaths do not even count those who died many years later and suffered the rest of their lives in extreme pain because of nuclear and biological warfare. Or having their body parts mutilated with lead.