"... and the Word was GOd. ..."

[Noose]

is God physical?

was Jesus only His flesh? what about you -- are you only your flesh?

what's the nature of ultimate reality -- physical or spiritual?

God is Love/ God is Truth- Truth and love are not physical, they reside in a mind which is also not physical.

Flesh accounts for nothing other than earthly existence, it is what's in my mind that counts (my understanding). It is the understanding (spirit) that will live on or die. My understanding lives forever if it holds the truth because truth never decays, but it will die if the truth that God had put in there is corrupted (lies).

1 Cor 2:15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ

Reality is spiritual and spirituality is understanding (either of truth or corruption of truth/lies).
When the bible says the world will pass away, it actually means people will die and when people die, it is their understanding that decays.

2 Pet 3:5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men

 

[Noose]

Scriptural gymnastics and logical deductions won't make the grade when finites attempt to describe the Infinite. Stick with Scripture. Nowhere is it revealed the Father died for our sins or that the Son sent the Father to be a propitiation for our sins.

Father and son are authorities like teacher and student, if it happens that the student teaches the teacher, then in that case the teacher has become the student and the student the teacher.

The Father sent the son, agreed, but from the scriptures, we can tell that the occupier of both these authorities is just one person. In Malachi 3:1, we see Him send Himself and in the following verse, we also see Him change His title to "messenger of the covenant".
So it is about authorities and not distinct persons.

 

[Noose]

Man you really are the master of gobbledegook and convoluted nonsense …

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance
all that I have said to you.
John 14:
But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father,
he will bear witness about me.
John 15: 26
And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which,
he said, “you heard from me;
Acts 1:4

You missed quite a bit:

John 14:15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
......

23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
.......
28“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

John 16: 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

Conclusion
1. If Jesus goes, the advocate comes, if He doesn't the advocate doesn't come
2. The advocate was already there with them and they knew Him but still, Jesus had to go for the advocate to come
3. Jesus was not going forever, He was coming to them shortly to make a home with them. The world would not see Him but they that were promised would see Him. Main point- Jesus was coming back to them shortly

Common sense demands that Jesus was claiming to be the Holy spirit, who was there with the disciples (as their helper), and they knew Him for He was with them; He had to go and come in them, in another form (another helper).

Common sense- If Jesus doesn't go, the advocate doesn't come, because the advocate is already there with them in a form that can not indwell them. But if Jesus goes, the advocate comes in them shortly. Jesus is not going and leaving them helpless, He is coming to them shortly.

 

[Deuteronomy]

And the universe was created through the minds of men/ existence is collectively in our minds- it's a mystery, i know.

Hi again Noose, Biblical "mysteries" are things that we know are true because the Bible tells us that they are (even though we may not be able to fully comprehend why or how they can be). Men cannot create a universe by thinking it into existence. To say that we can would be nonsense, not a mystery.

The image being spoken of in Genesis doesn't support the idea of three persons in one being in the way Trinitarians want it to.

Many things that were revealed to us in the NT were formerly concealed, to one degree or another, in the OT. The Godhead is certainly among them.

~Deut

 

[Noose]

Hi again Noose, Biblical "mysteries" are things that we know are true because the Bible tells us that they are (even though we may not be able to fully comprehend why or how they can be). Men cannot create a universe by thinking it into existence. To say that we can would be nonsense, not a mystery.

Rom 8:
18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

How come, the whole creation (Universe) is awaiting the sons of God to be revealed?

Ecc 3:9What does the worker gain from his toil? 10I have seen the burden that God has laid on men to occupy them.11He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.

I wouldn't call it nonsense.

Many things that were revealed to us in the NT were formerly concealed, to one degree or another, in the OT. The Godhead is certainly among them.
~Deut

Yet it is not what many people think it is , not trinity.

2 Pet 1:4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the worldcaused by evil desires.

 

[posthuman]

God is Love/ God is Truth- Truth and love are not physical, they reside in a mind which is also not physical.

Flesh accounts for nothing other than earthly existence, it is what's in my mind that counts (my understanding). It is the understanding (spirit) that will live on or die. My understanding lives forever if it holds the truth because truth never decays, but it will die if the truth that God had put in there is corrupted (lies).

1 Cor 2:15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ

Reality is spiritual and spirituality is understanding (either of truth or corruption of truth/lies).
When the bible says the world will pass away, it actually means people will die and when people die, it is their understanding that decays.

2 Pet 3:5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men

then it hardly matters whether the Father, the Son and the Spirit were 'present in the same place at the same' time as separate physical manifestations insofar as whether there is some kind of distinction, does it? because God is spirit, and was manifest in the flesh, Jesus, full of the Spirit without measure, not the man working but the Father working in Him. every step He took, there was a triune expression of the Almighty, in one human flesh.

 

[Noose]

then it hardly matters whether the Father, the Son and the Spirit were 'present in the same place at the same' time as separate physical manifestations insofar as whether there is some kind of distinction, does it? because God is spirit, and was manifest in the flesh, Jesus, full of the Spirit without measure, not the man working but the Father working in Him. every step He took, there was a triune expression of the Almighty, in one human flesh.

And this can simply be said, 'Jesus is God'. The Father/Son/Holy spirit are authorities of God in Jesus.

The idea that the Father is a distinct person with a different will, and the son a distinct person with a different will and the Holy spirit a distinct person with a different will, to me is wrong.

The idea that all the three are expressed in Jesus at one time also doesn't work for me. The son/Christ is the authority of God on this earth only. The Father is the authority of God in heaven and heaven is not a physical place but the heart (mind) of the son. The Holy spirit is the one understanding between the Father and son.

When Jesus was about to ascend, we can see the progression from one authority to the other. He was relinquishing the authority of the son to us and attaining a new name - that of the Father.

John 16:
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.

12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.15 Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.
.....
John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

John 14:12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in Myname, so that the Father may be glorified in theSon.

 

[posthuman]

The son/Christ is the authority of God on this earth only. The Father is the authority of God in heaven and heaven is not a physical place but the heart (mind) of the son. The Holy spirit is the one understanding between the Father and son.

Then Jesus came to them and said,
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me"​

(Matthew 28:18)​

 

[Waggles]

Common sense demands that Jesus was claiming to be the Holy spirit,

Man you are weird beyond belief.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
The very verses you cite give some insight into the complexity of the inter-relationship between the Father and Jesus -
God is Spirit and therefore when the Father sends down his Holy Spirit to disciples [Pentecost] and this also includes Jesus;
that is what? shared consciousness ?? shared power??

I really do not know why mere mortals waste time attempting to fully understand and quantify that which is way beyond both
our experience and comprehension.
Read the various passages where the prophets were taken to "Heaven" in the spirit and the descriptions of their visions …
read John's descriptions in Revelation.
This is all amazingly fantastical to us. And yet here on CC people who know nothing want to quantify the nature of God and state
this is how it is!!
Man I couldn't even do that when I used LSD back in the 70s …

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee,
what he has prepared for him that wait for him.
Isaiah 64:4

 

[jb]

Have you ever wondered why John 1:1 says that Jesus is God, "... and the Word was God."? That's because he is. What I am saying is, Jesus is the long awaited God who promised to come as a man to save his people from their sins. Isaiah 43:3 states it this way: "Encourage those who are afraid. Tell them to strong and do not doubt. I am coming to … save you.

And this is exactly what we see him doing in the Gospels. As God he went to the cross in our place to wipe out our sin debt. And I am so thankful that he did!

But you might say, what about the other part of John 1:1 that says, "... he was with God?" This is just a symbolic way of that saying that God has two other names besides Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit. But we call him Jesus simply because he wants us to.

As it says in Matthew 1:21: "And she shall have a son, and you are to call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Rev Autrey

For those interested you can find a bit of a study Here that refutes the "Jesus Only" destructive error!

 

[Noose]

Man you are weird beyond belief.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
The very verses you cite give some insight into the complexity of the inter-relationship between the Father and Jesus -
God is Spirit and therefore when the Father sends down his Holy Spirit to disciples [Pentecost] and this also includes Jesus;
that is what? shared consciousness ?? shared power??

I really do not know why mere mortals waste time attempting to fully understand and quantify that which is way beyond both
our experience and comprehension.
Read the various passages where the prophets were taken to "Heaven" in the spirit and the descriptions of their visions …
read John's descriptions in Revelation.
This is all amazingly fantastical to us. And yet here on CC people who know nothing want to quantify the nature of God and state
this is how it is!!
Man I couldn't even do that when I used LSD back in the 70s …

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee,
what he has prepared for him that wait for him.
Isaiah 64:4

If Jesus goes, the advocate comes, if Jesus doesn't go, the advocate doesn't come- yet the advocate was already there with them. Again, when Jesus goes, He doesn't leave them helpless, He comes back to them shortly in a manner that the world will not see but they will see.

These are not two distinct persons, just one person who was to go and come back.

 

[Noose]

Then Jesus came to them and said, ​

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me"​

(Matthew 28:18)​

Jesus is God who came to practically demonstrate sonship to us. And part of what it takes to be a son is to be given authority by the higher authority (Father). Jesus being our Father, also gives us authority:

Rev 3:21To the onewho is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Meon My throne, just as I overcame and sat down withMy Father on His throne.

 

[NWL]

I am done,

I posted the number and the post.

I found the post you were talking about and as I expected you again are in the wrong, I'll explain. I never ignored penneds post because it was never addressed to me at all, if he was never talking to me how could I possibly be ignoring him, for one I don't even believe in modalism is correct so how could I possibly answer. Simply click on the link YOU posted and you will see it so. Penned was talking to RevAutrey when he asked the following:

Penned asked RevAitrey: Is there a reason you neglected THIS post? Explain to us how ALL 3 members of the Godhead were present AT THE SAME TIME, if modalism is correct:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

I don't generally read the entire forum but only read what appears in the notification tab in the top right of the screen.

So for the record, it was YOU who mistakenly thought I was RevAutrey and thus refused to answer legitimate problems and questions I raise, to this day you still refuse to answer them despite me pointing out and you acknowledging you were in the wrong. And now again YOU are in the wrong since I have not been ignoring Penneds post as the post he made was never addressed to me in the first place.

Let me guess you still won't bother answering my question of 1 Cor 8:4-6 despite me posing legitimate issues, and let me guess you won't state the reason why other than "I'm done", convenient.

 

[crossnote]

Father and son are authorities like teacher and student, if it happens that the student teaches the teacher, then in that case the teacher has become the student and the student the teacher.

The Father sent the son, agreed, but from the scriptures, we can tell that the occupier of both these authorities is just one person. In Malachi 3:1, we see Him send Himself and in the following verse, we also see Him change His title to "messenger of the covenant".
So it is about authorities and not distinct persons.

Switching subject and object in a sentence is totally different than three separate Persons of the Trinity.
IOW, their functions are sometimes interchangeable but not their Personhood.

 

[Noose]

Switching subject and object in a sentence is totally different than three separate Persons of the Trinity.
IOW, their functions are sometimes interchangeable but not their Personhood.

Isa 9: 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Name = Authority

This one person shall have these authorities:

Everlasting Father =Father
Wonderful Counselor = Holy spirit
Son = Son
Prince of Peace = Son
Mighty God = Mighty God

 

[bluto]

The mistake you make is applying what is said by the person speaking in v17 ("Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer")as the identity of the person speaking in v16 ("And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me"). It is Isaiah who says the words "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit", you can tell this by the usage of quotation marks "" used in most modern English translations today.

New International Version
"Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.

Many scholars themselves state the speaker is not YHWH but instead state the words being spoken are that of Isaiah, some translations even insert the name Isaiah to make this point clear:

Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version
"...'Come here and listen to me! from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.'..."

Hi nwl! Let me ask you, who is the speaker at Isaiah 44:24? Is the speaker the same "being" speaking here at Isaiah 48:12-17?

I also have been waiting since June 18 to address the thread I started for you. This is what I stated regarding Hebrews 1:1-2 etc.

I was unable to post my reply to nwl on the other thread so I decided to just start another thread with my response.

Ok nwl, you now have my full attention so I will be addressing some of the things you stated. Notice the very first word at Hebrews 1:1. It is "God" and then it says, "after He/God spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways." First of all keep in mind that the Old Testament saints did not have the "FULL" revelation of God according to Romans 16:24-25.

In other words, God earlier spoke through the prophets etc, but now He has spoken through His Son Jesus because Jesus is a greater messenger than the prophets? This is backed up by what Jude said at vs3, "Beloved while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation,. I felt it necessity to write to you appealing that you earnestly contend for the faith WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVERED TO THE SAINTS."

Now, you ask me the following question? "When Hebrews 1:1,2 states the Father created the world through his son, who should rightly be labelled the originator or source of creation, (A) the person who creates the world through someone, or (B) the person the Father uses to create all things through?"

Since you teach that Jesus is Himself a created creature what role did He play in creation (or what did He create) since I gave you Isaiah 44:24 where God says, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." So how do you reconcile that with the question your asking me? You even said words have meaning in their context so since God created alone and by Himself, where does Jesus Christ fit in? You see nwl, I know where Jesus fits in because I know how to reconcile this apparent contradiction.

I also ask you to think about the angel of the Lord issue in which you responded by saying Jesus was part of the group etc. That's right, remember I said the first word at Hebrews 1:1 is "God." So where else did God personally speak to the OT saints? Remember I stated that the angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. This is what He says to Hagar at vs9. "Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress and submit yourself to her, "I WILL greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count." Notice it says, " I Will" and not "GOD WILL" multiply your descendants.

Now look at Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abraham and said to him, "I am God Almighty, Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU EXCEEDINGLY."

Here's my question? Is the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16 the same "being" who literally and physically appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty multiplying Abrahams descendants at Genesis 17:1,2? You don't have to address what I said here. Here is the thread: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...arding-hebrews-1-1-2-and-other-issues.185627/

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[jb]

Isa 9: 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Name = Authority

This one person shall have these authorities:

Everlasting Father =Father
Wonderful Counselor = Holy spirit
Son = Son
Prince of Peace = Son
Mighty God = Mighty God

Complete and utter twisting and mangling of Scripture!

 

[bluto]

If Jesus goes, the advocate comes, if Jesus doesn't go, the advocate doesn't come- yet the advocate was already there with them. Again, when Jesus goes, He doesn't leave them helpless, He comes back to them shortly in a manner that the world will not see but they will see.

These are not two distinct persons, just one person who was to go and come back.

Excuse me but Jesus Christ is "NOT" the person of the Holy Spirit. You also just stated, "These are not two distinct persons, just one person who was to go and come back."

Then you come up with this "jibberish" about "If Jesus goes, and if Jesus doesn't go the advocate doesn't come." Ok, explain 1 John 2:1, "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, "WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUSNESS."

So noose, you just claimed "if Jesus doesn't go the advocate doesn't come" so how come Jesus is gone but yet the Apostle John tells us He is our Advocate with the Father? I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit in this verse, do you?

Think of it this way? If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, (and btw according to oneness pentecostal teachings) the one person of Jesus is the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit there would be no need to "DISTINGUISH" them as the Bible clearly does. In other words, why bother making the distinction if there is no distinction to be made? How do you explain this noose?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Deuteronomy]

Ecc 3:9What does the worker gain from his toil? 10I have seen the burden that God has laid on men to occupy them.11He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.
I wouldn't call it nonsense.
Yet it is not what many people think it is , not trinity.
2 Pet 1:4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Hi again Noose, we will be like God in many ways when we have glorified bodies in the eternity to come. We will be eternal, like He is, we will share in His holiness and be righteous like He is, but we won't be omnipotent or omnipresent or omniscient, or somehow become life itself like He is. We will glorify, worship, adore and enjoy Him forever in His presence in perfect peace and happiness, free from sin, but we will not become "gods" ourselves with His Divine nature & attributes, and the abilities that He alone possesses .. Isaiah 43:10b.

--David
p.s. - the "many people" who you refer to above, who hold to the Trinity doctrine, amounts to the whole of the Christian church. We battle among ourselves about many, many things (to one degree or another) as I'm sure you are well-aware, but the Trinity is literally settled theology .. for ~ALL~ of us, Protestants, Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, etc. As a result, there is no controversy among us whatsoever in regard to the nature of the Godhead.

Rarely do we all speak with one voice about anything in the Christian faith like we do concerning this doctrine/the triune nature of God, and since we do, I think it would behoove anyone who disagrees with us to stop and thoroughly reconsider/reexamine what we have been saying and teaching (and reexamining/reconfirming ourselves) again and again and again, from generation to generation, from theologian to theologian, and that for millennia now.

 

[jaybird88]

Hi Jaybird, the Father wasn't speaking to Himself, He was speaking with the other Members of the Godhead (God the Son and God the Holy Spirit).
but according to you, the Father is the Most High, the Son is the Most High, the Spirit is the Most High. so the only conclusion is the Most High speaking to the Most High, in other words Himself.

Genesis 1

​

26 God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness........."​

27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.​

The Bible seems clear about this (please take particular note of what is highlighted in bold above).

clear about what? that Adam was created in the Fathers image, i agree, he walked with the Father, spoke with the Father, and was immortal until he ate. not understanding how that proves the "us" is the trinity. from where i am sitting it sounds like your trying to read into the passage your own assumption.

Just to be clear about this as well, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you'd like to believe. I have chosen to believe what the historic Christian church teaches/has taught for millennia now, not simply because the church teaches it, but because after a long and fairly thorough study, it checks out Biblically. IOW, I, like millions of others before me, confirmed the truth of the church's Trinity doctrine by using the Bible.

You asked two more questions, but I've gotta run right now, so I'll need to address those later today (Dv).

~Deut

im not sure i would say its something the church taught and people willingly learned of their free will, for more than a thousand years if you did not accept this teaching you and your entire family could be burned alive, what do you think that feels like?
i find it strange that the church had to burn people alive just to get them to believe a teaching that is, according to you, so plainly taught in scripture. if a subject is controversial its much eaiser to make it mainstream when the opposing side is being silenced and killed.