"... and the Word was GOd. ..."

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RevAutrey

New member
Jun 19, 2019
5
5
3
#1
Have you ever wondered why John 1:1 says that Jesus is God, "... and the Word was God."? That's because he is. What I am saying is, Jesus is the long awaited God who promised to come as a man to save his people from their sins. Isaiah 43:3 states it this way: "Encourage those who are afraid. Tell them to strong and do not doubt. I am coming to … save you.

And this is exactly what we see him doing in the Gospels. As God he went to the cross in our place to wipe out our sin debt. And I am so thankful that he did!

But you might say, what about the other part of John 1:1 that says, "... he was with God?" This is just a symbolic way of that saying that God has two other names besides Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit. But we call him Jesus simply because he wants us to.

As it says in Matthew 1:21: "And she shall have a son, and you are to call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Rev Autrey
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
1,224
1,224
113
63
#2
Hi @RevAutrey, first off, welcome to CChat :)

Your assessment of the Godhead (that there isn't a "Godhead") is one of the most interesting anti-Trinitarian approaches to John 1:1-2 that I've encountered over the years.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

You said that, "the Word was with God"/"He was in the beginning with God", is symbolic. I'm afraid I'm not following you, "symbolic" of what exactly :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's a passage where all three Members of the Godhead appear together at the same time and in the same general area (IOW, within eye-shot/earshot of each Other and in the presence of witnesses). Is this "symbolic" as well :unsure: Thanks again!


Matthew 3
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”


A little bit of satire, mostly about what the Trinity is not.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,067
327
83
#3
Have you ever wondered why John 1:1 says that Jesus is God, "... and the Word was God."? That's because he is. What I am saying is, Jesus is the long awaited God who promised to come as a man to save his people from their sins. Isaiah 43:3 states it this way: "Encourage those who are afraid. Tell them to strong and do not doubt. I am coming to … save you.

And this is exactly what we see him doing in the Gospels. As God he went to the cross in our place to wipe out our sin debt. And I am so thankful that he did!

But you might say, what about the other part of John 1:1 that says, "... he was with God?" This is just a symbolic way of that saying that God has two other names besides Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit. But we call him Jesus simply because he wants us to.

As it says in Matthew 1:21: "And she shall have a son, and you are to call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Rev Autrey
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam created in the image of God.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God(God manifest in flesh, the man Christ Jesus the beginning of creation).

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

The man Christ Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn of every creature, for God already had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He started creation, and He calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

God already had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He created Adam, and created Adam in the image that He would show up in the future, and that is an innocent nature in flesh, for the image of God is the image of Christ.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the world, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
Joh 1:3 All things were made with the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life, and to judge the world, and angels.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The word of God is God revealing Himself to the world by words written down, and the Word of God is God revealing Himself to Israel in a visible image of Himself, the only way a person can see the invisible God, and the book of Revelation is a revealing of Jesus to the world when the world sees Him in a glorified body.

The Word of God is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, which that plan was in the beginning with God before the plan was revealed to the Jews, and then to the world.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,203
2,711
113
#4
The Holy Trinity has always been difficult for some to accept, but it really is fairly simple.

God the Father: God OF man

God the Son: God AS man

God the Holy Spirit: God WITHIN man

Even Paul reveals our being in the image of the Triune God:

1 Thessalonians 5: 23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Gospel of John itself identifies, defines and proclaims the Truth of the Holy Trinity.

As with the Christian Faith, one MUST believe!
 

RevAutrey

New member
Jun 19, 2019
5
5
3
#5
Hi @RevAutrey, first off, welcome to CChat :)

Your assessment of the Godhead (that there isn't a "Godhead") is one of the most interesting anti-Trinitarian approaches to John 1:1-2 that I've encountered over the years.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

You said that, "the Word was with God"/"He was in the beginning with God", is symbolic. I'm afraid I'm not following you, "symbolic" of what exactly :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's a passage where all three Members of the Godhead appear together at the same time and in the same general area (IOW, within eye-shot/earshot of each Other and in the presence of witnesses). Is this "symbolic" as well :unsure: Thanks again!


Matthew 3
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”


A little bit of satire, mostly about what the Trinity is not.
Yes it is! The Bible is full of symbolic language. For instance, Jesus said in John 10 that he is the Good Shepherd, a symbolic quote direct from him as God in Psalm 23. Now we don't go out on a hillside and look for a literal shepherd, do we. So we are not looking for three separate Gods here. That would be against everything we know of him in the 10 Commandments.

It's just the way he speaks of himself to his people. As Jesus says of himself in Matthew 13:35: "I will speak to you in parables. I will explain mysteries hidden since the creation of thee world."

This is the bottom line, then. Moses plainly tells us in Deuteronomy 6: "Hear O Israel ( and we are Spiritual Israel ). The Lord our God is one being, and he is God alone." Jesus affirmed this when he said in Mark 12:29-30: "The most important commandment is this: The Lord our God is the one and only being who is God." The teacher of religious law agreed with this when he said: Well said Teacher. You have spoken well when you say there is only one eternal being called God."

The prophet Isaiah agreed when he quoted Jesus as saying of himself in Isaiah 43:10: "But you are my witnesses, O Israel ( and again we are Spiritual Israel ), says the Lord. And you are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, and to understand that there is no God apart from me, a just God and your only Savior. Besides me there is no God formed. There never has been and there never will be."

So its just the way Jesus speaks about himself, in Trinitarian form, or as a Trinity you might say. He has done this from eternity and he always will, even when we get to heaven.

So what Jesus as God is saying to us in the Gospels is this. I am speaking to you as Jesus, but The Father and the Holy spirit are my other two names.

See, Jesus is a person just as we are. That's how we understand that we are made in his image. So in this case he is speaking to us as a personal friend would, only in symbols.

It's just a matter of if we choose to believe him or not.


God bless you, my friend. I will have more to say next time.

Rev Autrey
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,254
113
Usa
#6
One God,three distinct forms as one God. The Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each worked with mankind in a dispensation.The Father....the creator,the Son....our saviour.....the Holy Spirit our comforter and guide. As has been said" let US make man in OUR image singular and plural!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,346
5,955
113
53
#7
There is ONE God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons in the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,056
14,684
113
#9
ONE GOD manifested three ways......we cannot grasp this fully because we are bound by flesh and ignorance (at times)
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,254
113
Usa
#10
ONE GOD manifested three ways......we cannot grasp this fully because we are bound by flesh and ignorance (at times)
Open our ears Dear Lord that we may see you more clearly,love you more dearly and allow YOU to lead us.....Amen🙏
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,315
442
83
#12
Yes it is! The Bible is full of symbolic language. For instance, Jesus said in John 10 that he is the Good Shepherd, a symbolic quote direct from him as God in Psalm 23. Now we don't go out on a hillside and look for a literal shepherd, do we. So we are not looking for three separate Gods here. That would be against everything we know of him in the 10 Commandments.

It's just the way he speaks of himself to his people. As Jesus says of himself in Matthew 13:35: "I will speak to you in parables. I will explain mysteries hidden since the creation of thee world."

This is the bottom line, then. Moses plainly tells us in Deuteronomy 6: "Hear O Israel ( and we are Spiritual Israel ). The Lord our God is one being, and he is God alone." Jesus affirmed this when he said in Mark 12:29-30: "The most important commandment is this: The Lord our God is the one and only being who is God." The teacher of religious law agreed with this when he said: Well said Teacher. You have spoken well when you say there is only one eternal being called God."

The prophet Isaiah agreed when he quoted Jesus as saying of himself in Isaiah 43:10: "But you are my witnesses, O Israel ( and again we are Spiritual Israel ), says the Lord. And you are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, and to understand that there is no God apart from me, a just God and your only Savior. Besides me there is no God formed. There never has been and there never will be."

So its just the way Jesus speaks about himself, in Trinitarian form, or as a Trinity you might say. He has done this from eternity and he always will, even when we get to heaven.

So what Jesus as God is saying to us in the Gospels is this. I am speaking to you as Jesus, but The Father and the Holy spirit are my other two names.

See, Jesus is a person just as we are. That's how we understand that we are made in his image. So in this case he is speaking to us as a personal friend would, only in symbols.

It's just a matter of if we choose to believe him or not.


God bless you, my friend. I will have more to say next time.

Rev Autrey
An interesting theory, but it seems that we can try a lot to explain trianity without match the point.
Jesus did never used the name God father ore holy Spirit for himself.
Also then it would make no sense that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit cant come solong he would stay on earth.
 
#13
Yes it is! The Bible is full of symbolic language. For instance, Jesus said in John 10 that he is the Good Shepherd, a symbolic quote direct from him as God in Psalm 23. Now we don't go out on a hillside and look for a literal shepherd, do we. So we are not looking for three separate Gods here. That would be against everything we know of him in the 10 Commandments.

It's just the way he speaks of himself to his people. As Jesus says of himself in Matthew 13:35: "I will speak to you in parables. I will explain mysteries hidden since the creation of thee world."

This is the bottom line, then. Moses plainly tells us in Deuteronomy 6: "Hear O Israel ( and we are Spiritual Israel ). The Lord our God is one being, and he is God alone." Jesus affirmed this when he said in Mark 12:29-30: "The most important commandment is this: The Lord our God is the one and only being who is God." The teacher of religious law agreed with this when he said: Well said Teacher. You have spoken well when you say there is only one eternal being called God."

The prophet Isaiah agreed when he quoted Jesus as saying of himself in Isaiah 43:10: "But you are my witnesses, O Israel ( and again we are Spiritual Israel ), says the Lord. And you are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, and to understand that there is no God apart from me, a just God and your only Savior. Besides me there is no God formed. There never has been and there never will be."

So its just the way Jesus speaks about himself, in Trinitarian form, or as a Trinity you might say. He has done this from eternity and he always will, even when we get to heaven.

So what Jesus as God is saying to us in the Gospels is this. I am speaking to you as Jesus, but The Father and the Holy spirit are my other two names.

See, Jesus is a person just as we are. That's how we understand that we are made in his image. So in this case he is speaking to us as a personal friend would, only in symbols.

It's just a matter of if we choose to believe him or not.


God bless you, my friend. I will have more to say next time.

Rev Autrey
I'm afraid that this is what happens when (even ) "reasonable men" "intellectualize", that which is "set apart", from that which is "Holy!"

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That "man of sin", is one "slippery" dude! He's even gone as far as deceiving the whole WORLD!

This is why Messiah said:
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,404
3,093
113
#14
But you might say, what about the other part of John 1:1 that says, "... he was with God?" This is just a symbolic way of that saying that God has two other names besides Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit. But we call him Jesus simply because he wants us to.
What you have said in your post is true. However. you might want to consider expressing the above bolded portions a little differently. "The Word was with God" confirms that the Word (Jesus) is also the Son, and that God has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are many who do not wish to believe this.
 

RevAutrey

New member
Jun 19, 2019
5
5
3
#15
All of the above comments are meaningful and well thought out. But they are all taken from our traditional beliefs and simply do not line up with what Jesus plainly teaches about himself in the Bible. Translated, it seems to be the most difficult thing in the Christian world for us to simply believe that Jesus is YHWH God, the same one the prophets said would come and save his people from their sins.

For instance, Isaiah 40 plainly tells us this:

"Listen! I hear the voice of someone shouting, 'Make a highway for the Lord through the wilderness. Make a straight road through the desert for our God."

And if this is not plain enough it goes on to say: "Fill in the valleys and level the hills. Straighten out the curves and smooth off the rough spots. Then God will come in his full glory and all eyes shall see him."

It goes on to say: "Messenger of the Gospel, shout to Zion ( us ) from the mountaintops! Shout louder to Jerusalem, do not be afraid. Tell the towns of Judah ( again, us ), 'Your God is coming in all his glorious power. Yes, he will rule with awesome strength. See, he brings his reward ( salvation and heaven ) with him as he comes. Yes, he will fed his flock like a shepherd. He will carry his lambs in his arms, holding them close to his heart.'"

Without a doubt, this is speaking of God as Jesus in his earthly ministry!

to So yes, I know that this is hard to believe because it is not what we have been taught all these many years. But now it is! So all I ask you to do is check out what I am telling you for yourself in the Bible, and you will see for yourself.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,004
673
113
#16
Hi @RevAutrey, first off, welcome to CChat :)

Your assessment of the Godhead (that there isn't a "Godhead") is one of the most interesting anti-Trinitarian approaches to John 1:1-2 that I've encountered over the years.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

You said that, "the Word was with God"/"He was in the beginning with God", is symbolic. I'm afraid I'm not following you, "symbolic" of what exactly :unsure:

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - here's a passage where all three Members of the Godhead appear together at the same time and in the same general area (IOW, within eye-shot/earshot of each Other and in the presence of witnesses). Is this "symbolic" as well :unsure: Thanks again!


Matthew 3
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”


A little bit of satire, mostly about what the Trinity is not.
Dummy post, because I was trying to figure something out and the site wouldn't let me do it the way I wanted. So I had to do a workaround. :cool:
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,404
3,093
113
#18
But they are all taken from our traditional beliefs and simply do not line up with what Jesus plainly teaches about himself in the Bible.
It is generally the cults who condemn so-called "traditional beliefs* when they attempt to promote their false doctrines. The words of Jesus are NOT traditional beliefs, and He is the one who identified God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19).
Translated, it seems to be the most difficult thing in the Christian world for us to simply believe that Jesus is YHWH God, the same one the prophets said would come and save his people from their sins.
All conservative Christians believe that Jesus is fully God and that He is called called YHWH (the LORD). At the same time, God the Father is also called YHWH, so there is absolutely no conflict.

The Father is God, but He is neither the Son nor the Spirit
The Son is God, but He is neither the Father nor the Spirit
The Holy Spirit is God, but He is neither the Father nor the Son
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,484
3,619
113
#19
THIS COMPLETELY eviscerates the heresy of the OP. Please note that ALL 3 Persons of the Trinity were present AT THE SAME TIME:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,658
1,909
113
#20
I was once on a certain Forum that didn't allow the use of titles, such as Rev., Pastor, Bishop, etc.. Now I see it was a good idea. :eek: