I'm sorry nwl, but I'm unable to post the follwing to your response.

[bluto]

I keep getting a message that I cannot post 10000 characters or whatever? So my response is here.

Thanks for your reply nwl. What your doing is contradicting the Scriptures. Sure, you do say you believe Jesus existed before the earth was created and God used Jesus to create all things through Him. I don't know how many times I have to say it but God said He created the heavens all alone and by Himself, end of story.

You also said the "angels" shouted with joy, so what? Where in the Bible does it say the angels helped God? Sure they shouted for joy, "AFTER" the Lord created everything. I shouted for joy when I saw the plans of the architect of my custom home and then when the house was finally built my wife and I really shouted with joy thanking the Lord God. I did not have a hand in building my house. Which means that Job 8:4-7 still does not say the angels helped God create anything. In spite of the fact that angels are created beings themselves. Plus you have already made Jesus Christ a created being and then you come up with the excuse that all things were created "through" Him and for Him. Thus your avoiding the clear reading of John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 as well as Revelation 3:14. John 1:3, "ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING BY OR THROUGH HIM, and apart from Him (or without Him) NOTHING has come into being that has come into being."

As you know I already mentioned Isaiah 44:24 where the Lord created by Himself. Here's another one for you? Isaiah 40:12-15, "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span, And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance, And the hills in a pair of scales? vs13, Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has informed Him? vs14, With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge. And informed Him of the way of understanding? Vs15, Behold, the nations are like a drop in a bucket, And are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales, Behold He lifts up the islands like fine dust."

So nwl, you still want to insist that the Lord God needed help in creation? In view of this, in what respect did God need Jesus Christ to help Him since you believe Jesus was created? How is it then that John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 clearly reveal and say all things were created by Jesus Christ? How know how to reconcile all of this but you don't. The reconcilation is explained and it has to do with "Who is the angel of the Lord."

Since you insist that the angel of the Lord is just that, an angel, I'm going to tell you right now that's impossible. The angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. In my other post to you I quoted most of Genesis 22. I think I also ask you a couple of questions? For instance, why does the angel of the Lord call out of the heavens two times to Abraham? Why did not God Himself call out since at other verses He has called out of the heavens?

Here's the "nut" of my argument. It clearly says at Genesis 22:15-17, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, AND SAID "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES THE LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply yur seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

According to the Jewish virtual library a "shilach" which is an agent for a principal CANNOIT SWEAR OATHS on behalf of a principal. In this case the pricipal is God. Moreover, here is what Hebrews 6:13-14 states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." An angel is not greater than God Himself therefore Jesus Christ is God.

I'm going to brag a little bit and tell you that there is no excuse you can bring up that I know the answer to. In fact, here is a very popular excuse bring up from Genesis 22:12. "And he said, Do not stretch out your had against the lad, and do nothing to him; FOR NOW I KNOW YOU FEAR GOD since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me." It's not at all unusual for God to speak in the third person, which He is doing here. Zechariah 3:1-2, "Then he showed me, Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him, vs2, And the Lord said to Satan, "THE LORD REBUKE YOU Satan! Indeed the Lord who has chosen Jersalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire."

So both the angel of the Lord and God the Father were both there at the same time. One God manifested as two persons. God also speaks in the third person at Job 1:8 and at John 2:3. I can also bring other verses as well. And btw, keep in mind that if you saw a crime and you were called into court as a witness to testify, you could not send your Uncle Harry to testify for you. Even you could not make it to court the court will send a court official to "depose" you.

Also, God swore by Himself at Exodus 32:13, and Isaiah 45:23. I suggest you real them yourself. In closing the angel of the Lord "NEVER" appears in the New Testament as the angel of the Lord. Any questions you have I will be happy to address.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

I keep getting a message that I cannot post 10000 characters or whatever? So my response is here.

Thanks for your reply nwl. What your doing is contradicting the Scriptures. Sure, you do say you believe Jesus existed before the earth was created and God used Jesus to create all things through Him. I don't know how many times I have to say it but God said He created the heavens all alone and by Himself, end of story.

You also said the "angels" shouted with joy, so what? Where in the Bible does it say the angels helped God? Sure they shouted for joy, "AFTER" the Lord created everything. I shouted for joy when I saw the plans of the architect of my custom home and then when the house was finally built my wife and I really shouted with joy thanking the Lord God. I did not have a hand in building my house. Which means that Job 8:4-7 still does not say the angels helped God create anything. In spite of the fact that angels are created beings themselves. Plus you have already made Jesus Christ a created being and then you come up with the excuse that all things were created "through" Him and for Him. Thus your avoiding the clear reading of John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 as well as Revelation 3:14. John 1:3, "ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING BY OR THROUGH HIM, and apart from Him (or without Him) NOTHING has come into being that has come into being."

As you know I already mentioned Isaiah 44:24 where the Lord created by Himself. Here's another one for you? Isaiah 40:12-15, "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span, And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance, And the hills in a pair of scales? vs13, Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has informed Him? vs14, With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge. And informed Him of the way of understanding? Vs15, Behold, the nations are like a drop in a bucket, And are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales, Behold He lifts up the islands like fine dust."

So nwl, you still want to insist that the Lord God needed help in creation? In view of this, in what respect did God need Jesus Christ to help Him since you believe Jesus was created? How is it then that John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 clearly reveal and say all things were created by Jesus Christ? How know how to reconcile all of this but you don't. The reconcilation is explained and it has to do with "Who is the angel of the Lord."

Since you insist that the angel of the Lord is just that, an angel, I'm going to tell you right now that's impossible. The angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. In my other post to you I quoted most of Genesis 22. I think I also ask you a couple of questions? For instance, why does the angel of the Lord call out of the heavens two times to Abraham? Why did not God Himself call out since at other verses He has called out of the heavens?

Here's the "nut" of my argument. It clearly says at Genesis 22:15-17, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, AND SAID "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES THE LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply yur seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

According to the Jewish virtual library a "shilach" which is an agent for a principal CANNOIT SWEAR OATHS on behalf of a principal. In this case the pricipal is God. Moreover, here is what Hebrews 6:13-14 states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." An angel is not greater than God Himself therefore Jesus Christ is God.

I'm going to brag a little bit and tell you that there is no excuse you can bring up that I know the answer to. In fact, here is a very popular excuse bring up from Genesis 22:12. "And he said, Do not stretch out your had against the lad, and do nothing to him; FOR NOW I KNOW YOU FEAR GOD since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me." It's not at all unusual for God to speak in the third person, which He is doing here. Zechariah 3:1-2, "Then he showed me, Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him, vs2, And the Lord said to Satan, "THE LORD REBUKE YOU Satan! Indeed the Lord who has chosen Jersalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire."

So both the angel of the Lord and God the Father were both there at the same time. One God manifested as two persons. God also speaks in the third person at Job 1:8 and at John 2:3. I can also bring other verses as well. And btw, keep in mind that if you saw a crime and you were called into court as a witness to testify, you could not send your Uncle Harry to testify for you. Even you could not make it to court the court will send a court official to "depose" you.

Also, God swore by Himself at Exodus 32:13, and Isaiah 45:23. I suggest you real them yourself. In closing the angel of the Lord "NEVER" appears in the New Testament as the angel of the Lord. Any questions you have I will be happy to address.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bumped for NWL.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Noose]

Prov 8:
1Does not wisdom call out,
and understanding raise her voice?
2On the heights overlooking the road,
at the crossroads she takes her stand.
3Beside the gates to the city,
at the entrances she cries out:
4“To you, O men, I call out,
and my cry is to the sons of men.

.....

22The LORD created me as His first course,c
before His works of old.
23From everlasting I was established,
from the beginning, before the earth began.
24When there were no watery depths, I was brought forth,
when no springs were overflowing with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26before He made the land or fields,
or any of the dust of the earth.
27I was there when He established the heavens,
when He inscribed the horizon on the face of the deep,
28when He established the clouds above,
when the fountains of the deep gushed forth,
29when He set a boundary for the sea,
so that the waters would not surpass His command,
when He marked out the foundations of the earth.
30Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side,
and His delightd day by day,
rejoicing always in His presence.
31I was rejoicing in His whole world,
delighting together in the sons of men.

32Now therefore, my sons, listen to me,
for blessed are those who keep my ways.

 

[bluto]

Prov 8:
1Does not wisdom call out,
and understanding raise her voice?
2On the heights overlooking the road,
at the crossroads she takes her stand.
3Beside the gates to the city,
at the entrances she cries out:
4“To you, O men, I call out,
and my cry is to the sons of men.

.....

22The LORD created me as His first course,c
before His works of old.
23From everlasting I was established,
from the beginning, before the earth began.
24When there were no watery depths, I was brought forth,
when no springs were overflowing with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26before He made the land or fields,
or any of the dust of the earth.
27I was there when He established the heavens,
when He inscribed the horizon on the face of the deep,
28when He established the clouds above,
when the fountains of the deep gushed forth,
29when He set a boundary for the sea,
so that the waters would not surpass His command,
when He marked out the foundations of the earth.
30Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side,
and His delightd day by day,
rejoicing always in His presence.
31I was rejoicing in His whole world,
delighting together in the sons of men.

32Now therefore, my sons, listen to me,
for blessed are those who keep my ways.

And your point is what, Jesus is a created being?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Noose]

And your point is what, Jesus is a created being?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

That chapter seems to suggest there were persons besides the Lord during and even before creation; even sons of men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Prov 8: 22, I have been ESTABLISHED from everlasting from the beginning

Established in the hebrew

CHALOT
I נָסַךְ: qal: pf. נ׳, נָסָֽךְ; impf. יִסְּכוּ; inf. נְסֹּךְ:—1. pour out: obj. wine Ho 9:4, libation Ex 30:9, drink-offering (in concluding an alliance) Is 30:1, spirit 29:10;—2. pour = produce a molten image Is 40:19; 44:10. †
[nif.: cj. pf. נִסַּכְתִּי: cj. Ps 2:6 (for qal): be consecrated, exalted (by drink-offering). †]
piel: impf. וַיְנַסֵּךְ: pour out (water) as an oblation 1 C 11:18. †
hif.: pf. הִסְּכוּ; impf. אַסִּיךְ, וַיַּסֵּךְ, וַיַּסִּיכוּ; inf. cs. לְהַסֵּךְ Je 44:19, 25, abs. הַסֵּ(י)ךְ: w. nēsek contribute a drink-offering Gn 35:14, w. pl. Je 7:18; mayim, pour out as a contribution 2 S 23:16.
hof.: impf. יֻסַּךְ: be contributed as a libation Ex 25:29; 37:16. †

DBL
5819 II. נָסַךְ (nā·sǎḵ): v.; ≡ Str 5259; TWOT 1376—LN 79.114–79.117 (qal pass.) be covered, be overshadowed, formally, be woven or interweaved, i.e., to cover over an object, with a focus that this covering inhibits or restrains the blessings of God, and so is associated with a curse as a figurative extension of the result of weaving something into heavy fabric (Isa 25:7+)

5258. נָסַךְ nâc̨ak, naw-sak´; a prim. root; to pour out, espec. a libation, or to cast (metal); by anal. to anoint a king:—cover, melt, offer, (cause to) pour (out), set (up).

Forgive me, but I do not see the word created anywhere in the text. I see the word which means to be established, or set up or anointed.

 

[Noose]

Prov 8: 22, I have been ESTABLISHED from everlasting from the beginning

Established in the hebrew

CHALOT
I נָסַךְ: qal: pf. נ׳, נָסָֽךְ; impf. יִסְּכוּ; inf. נְסֹּךְ:—1. pour out: obj. wine Ho 9:4, libation Ex 30:9, drink-offering (in concluding an alliance) Is 30:1, spirit 29:10;—2. pour = produce a molten image Is 40:19; 44:10. †
[nif.: cj. pf. נִסַּכְתִּי: cj. Ps 2:6 (for qal): be consecrated, exalted (by drink-offering). †]
piel: impf. וַיְנַסֵּךְ: pour out (water) as an oblation 1 C 11:18. †
hif.: pf. הִסְּכוּ; impf. אַסִּיךְ, וַיַּסֵּךְ, וַיַּסִּיכוּ; inf. cs. לְהַסֵּךְ Je 44:19, 25, abs. הַסֵּ(י)ךְ: w. nēsek contribute a drink-offering Gn 35:14, w. pl. Je 7:18; mayim, pour out as a contribution 2 S 23:16.
hof.: impf. יֻסַּךְ: be contributed as a libation Ex 25:29; 37:16. †

DBL
5819 II. נָסַךְ (nā·sǎḵ): v.; ≡ Str 5259; TWOT 1376—LN 79.114–79.117 (qal pass.) be covered, be overshadowed, formally, be woven or interweaved, i.e., to cover over an object, with a focus that this covering inhibits or restrains the blessings of God, and so is associated with a curse as a figurative extension of the result of weaving something into heavy fabric (Isa 25:7+)

5258. נָסַךְ nâc̨ak, naw-sak´; a prim. root; to pour out, espec. a libation, or to cast (metal); by anal. to anoint a king:—cover, melt, offer, (cause to) pour (out), set (up).

Forgive me, but I do not see the word created anywhere in the text. I see the word which means to be established, or set up or anointed.

My point is not about creation but this person (wisdom) was beside the Lord helping in creation but also rejoicing in the sons of men before the foundation of the world.

 

[Waggles]

My point is not about creation but this person (wisdom) was beside the Lord helping in creation but also rejoicing in the sons of men before the foundation of the world.

which Bible version are you using?
Proverbs 8 is about wisdom and knowledge which "began" with the whole purpose of creation and the plan for our salvation from
before the world was made … BUT
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.
Proverbs 8: (ESV)
is about rejoicing in the creation of the sons of men after we were created not before creation.
please refer to Genesis 1:26-28

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach
to save those who believe.
1Corinthians 1:21
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly
places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:

 

[bluto]

My point is not about creation but this person (wisdom) was beside the Lord helping in creation but also rejoicing in the sons of men before the foundation of the world.

In light of my OP I'm wondering why you brought up Proverbs 8? I didn't mention in my post? So, since you did bring up Proverbs 8 I will address your point about "this person" (wisdom) was beside the Lord helping in creation etc.

Wisdom is "NOT" a person according to Proverbs 8. Wisdom is "personified" and personification is ascribing personal actions of characteristics to a nonpersonal thing. In this case the non personal thing is an attribute of God which is His wisdom.

Moreover, Proverbs 8 is mininterpreted by the Jw's and others, (unitarians) who claim from Proverbs 8:22 that Jesus is a created being. They also will quote Revelation 3:14 to show Jesus is created. All one has to do is just read the complete Proverb. Vs1, "Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up HER voice?" Vs11, "For wisdom is better than jewels, and all desirable things can not compare to HER."

Vs15, "By me/wisdom kings reign, And rulers decree justice. vs16, By me/wisdom princes rule and nobles, all who judge rightly." Vs22 is explaining that wisdom has always been with the Lord or is an attribute of the Lord. Please just read the following verses. Even at vs1 of Proverbs 9 wisdom is again identified as a "she."

Now, take notice of 1 Corinthians 1:24, "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the WISDOM of God." In other words, God used His wisdom in reconciling us back to Him through Jesus Christ. Colossians 2:3 says, "In Christ are hidden all the treadures of wisdom and knowledge." Your complete in Jesus Christ.

Finally, would you mind noose addressing my other points in my OP? Mainly, since God created everything by Himself and alone why is Jesus Christ identified as the agent of creation at John 1:3 and the other verses I mentioned? Also what is your view or opionion on the angel of the Lord?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Waggles]

verse 1 - wisdom > H2451 chokmâh wisdom (in a good sense): - skillful, wisdom, wisely, wit.
Total KJV occurrences: 149

verse 5 - wisdom > H6195 ‛ormâh trickery; or (in a good sense) discretion: - guile, prudence, subtilty, wilily, wisdom.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

verses 8, 11, 12 - wisdom > H2451

verse 14 - sound wisdom > H8454 tûshı̂yâh tûshı̂yâh
From an unused root probably meaning to substantiate; support or (by implication) ability, that is, (direct) help, (in purpose) an undertaking, (intellectual) understanding: - enterprise, that which (thing as it) is, substance, (sound) wisdom, working.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

 

[Noose]

In light of my OP I'm wondering why you brought up Proverbs 8? I didn't mention in my post? So, since you did bring up Proverbs 8 I will address your point about "this person" (wisdom) was beside the Lord helping in creation etc.

Wisdom is "NOT" a person according to Proverbs 8. Wisdom is "personified" and personification is ascribing personal actions of characteristics to a nonpersonal thing. In this case the non personal thing is an attribute of God which is His wisdom.


Finally, would you mind noose addressing my other points in my OP? Mainly, since God created everything by Himself and alone why is Jesus Christ identified as the agent of creation at John 1:3 and the other verses I mentioned? Also what is your view or opionion on the angel of the Lord?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

which Bible version are you using?
Proverbs 8 is about wisdom and knowledge which "began" with the whole purpose of creation and the plan for our salvation from
before the world was made … BUT
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.
Proverbs 8: (ESV)
is about rejoicing in the creation of the sons of men after we were created not before creation.
please refer to Genesis 1:26-28

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach
to save those who believe.
1Corinthians 1:21
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly
places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:

Fair enough, wisdom is personified and by wisdom and understanding, everything was created:

Prov 3:
19The LORD founded the earth by wisdom
and established the heavens by understanding.

But Jesus grew in wisdom:

Luke 2:52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

So Jesus is much created just like you are created but He is also un created; something that is hard to understand. When we say created, we mean all created things (more precisely, visible things or material things). In this case, Jesus was created some 2000 years ago.

Q. Are a created being? when were you created?

But when we talk of un-created things (mainly the spirit), it has been forever with God as part of God. In this manner, Jesus is un created and also we were together with God as part of Him.

@Waggles; Wisdom rejoiced in the sons of men before the foundation of the world. Whatever you are quoting is a misinterpretation.

Job 32:
7I thought that age should speak,
and many years should teach wisdom.

8But there is a spiritb in a man,
the breath of the Almighty,
that gives him understanding.


1.The breath of God which is in a man is never created, it is the wisdom that created the universe within man.

2. Wisdom and understanding do not hold a hammer and hit the anvil, they only reside in a mind and the results of their action are thoughts. So the whole universe is a thought for it was founded by wisdom. The mind and its thought process process are given to sons of men.

 

[Waggles]

@Noose
You are in an universe of your own
Are you preaching Christian doctrine or Buddhism ?
New Age cosmic awareness ?

 

[Noose]

@Noose
You are in an universe of your own
Are you preaching Christian doctrine or Buddhism ?
New Age cosmic awareness ?

I don't know Buddhism but these ideas are found in the Bible; does the bible teach Buddhism?

Q. When were you (Waggles) created?

 

[Waggles]

Q. When were you (Waggles) created?

According to my mum and dad 40 weeks before my birthday

 

[Noose]

According to my mum and dad 40 weeks before my birthday

That makes it a few years ago; what role did God play because from your answer, it seems your dad and mom created you?
What is wrong with saying Jesus was also created some 2000 years ago?

And btw, i'm reading about the new age cosmic awareness staff, thanks to you. Let me see what it is all about.

 

[calibob]

According to my mum and dad 40 weeks before my birthday

You may be fortunate. I met my Bio father & mother in my 30's. I was abondandoned at the hospital. I and my children & grandchildren are fortunate that abortion wasn't free or easy then. Abortion for birth control is murder for sex. As far as I'm concerned its worse then Mormonism, Homosexuality, Astrology, or even Idolatry. It's human sacrifice!

 

[Noose]

You may be fortunate. I met my Bio father & mother in my 30's. I was abondandoned at the hospital. I and my children & grandchildren are fortunate that abortion wasn't free or easy then. Abortion for birth control is murder for sex. As far as I'm concerned its worse then Mormonism, Homosexuality, Astrology, or even Idolatry. It's human sacrifice!

Feeling sorry for what happened to you.

 

[calibob]

Feeling sorry for what happened to you.

Feeling sorry for what happened to you.

Feeling sorry for what happened to you.

Thanks but we are OK. God showed up!

 

[Waggles]

What is wrong with saying Jesus was also created some 2000 years ago?

Jesus the man who walked the Earth was born some 2,000 years ago BUT
Jesus was not created 2,000 years ago.
Jesus is God with God the Father and has always existed.
Certainly before the Earth and universe came into being (which were created by Jesus)
there is a greater mystery here for us that can only be revealed when we eventually are transformed into spiritual beings and
enter the eternities with our Lord and God.

 

[Noose]

Jesus the man who walked the Earth was born some 2,000 years ago BUT
Jesus was not created 2,000 years ago.
Jesus is God with God the Father and has always existed.
Certainly before the Earth and universe came into being (which were created by Jesus)
there is a greater mystery here for us that can only be revealed when we eventually are transformed into spiritual beings and
enter the eternities with our Lord and God.

That's great; can the same be said of you and i, that as much as we were born in flesh recently, our spirit has been with God from before the beginning?

Job 32:
8But there is a spiritb in a man,
the breath of the Almighty,
that gives him understanding.