Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

SimpleGardner

Banned
#801
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
#801
PS said:
Abraham Justified by Faith​
Rom 4:1 What, then, are we to say about Abraham, our human ancestor?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by actions, he would have had something to boast about—though not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation.
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from actions:
Rom 4:7 "How blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered!
Rom 4:8 How blessed is the person whose sins the Lord will never charge against him!"
Rom 4:9 Now does this blessedness come to the circumcised alone, or also to the uncircumcised? For we say, "Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or uncircumcised? He had not yet been circumcised, but was uncircumcised.
Rom 4:11 Afterward he received the mark of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Therefore, he is the ancestor of all who believe while uncircumcised, in order that righteousness may be credited to them.
Rom 4:12 He is also the ancestor of the circumcised—those who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith​
Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the Law, but through the righteousness produced by faith.
Rom 4:14 For if those who were given the Law are the heirs, then faith is useless and the promise is worthless,
Rom 4:15 for the Law produces wrath. Now where there is no Law, neither can there be any violation of it.
Rom 4:16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith, so that it may be a matter of grace and may be guaranteed for all of Abraham's descendants—not only for those who were given the Law, but also for those who share the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
Rom 4:17 As it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations." Abraham acted in faith when he stood in the presence of God, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence things that don't yet exist.
Click to expand...

Would it not be proper to add:

Gen 26:4-5 KJV And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#802
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#802
SimpleGardner said:
Would it not be proper to add:

Gen 26:4-5 KJV And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

?
Click to expand...
That would be the Ten Commandments. Or possibly the 'the Noahide Laws.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#803
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
13,785
113
#803
PS said:
That would be the Ten Commandments. Or possibly the 'the Noahide Laws.
Click to expand...
The Noahide Laws are a corruption of Scripture. God doesn't hold anyone to a corrupt version of His word.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#804
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#804
Dino246 said:
The Noahide Laws are a corruption of Scripture. God doesn't hold anyone to a corrupt version of His word.
Click to expand...
First there was only one law:
“And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Ì​

This was followed by the Noahide laws that were given to the “children of Noah” after the flood that ended c. 3235 B.C. “God spoke to Noah and his children as they exit the ark saying :- “Behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you’ (Genesis 9:9).
The six Noahide Laws were :-
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law. This was added later.
Ì​

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses c. 1424 after they left exile in Egypt.

After that came the 613 man-made Mitzvot Laws.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#805
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#805
Abraham was saved by faith prior to the law and we are saved by faith after the law.

The law is null and void, a hiccup in Jewish history.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#806
#806
PS said:
Abraham Justified by Faith​
Rom 4:1 What, then, are we to say about Abraham, our human ancestor?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by actions, he would have had something to boast about—though not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation.
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from actions:
Rom 4:7 "How blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered!
Rom 4:8 How blessed is the person whose sins the Lord will never charge against him!"
Rom 4:9 Now does this blessedness come to the circumcised alone, or also to the uncircumcised? For we say, "Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or uncircumcised? He had not yet been circumcised, but was uncircumcised.
Rom 4:11 Afterward he received the mark of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. Therefore, he is the ancestor of all who believe while uncircumcised, in order that righteousness may be credited to them.
Rom 4:12 He is also the ancestor of the circumcised—those who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith​
Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the Law, but through the righteousness produced by faith.
Rom 4:14 For if those who were given the Law are the heirs, then faith is useless and the promise is worthless,
Rom 4:15 for the Law produces wrath. Now where there is no Law, neither can there be any violation of it.
Rom 4:16 Therefore, the promise is based on faith, so that it may be a matter of grace and may be guaranteed for all of Abraham's descendants—not only for those who were given the Law, but also for those who share the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
Rom 4:17 As it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations." Abraham acted in faith when he stood in the presence of God, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence things that don't yet exist.
Click to expand...
Ahh, but we were in Roman's 10:4...remember? We were "in context" talking about the simple meaning of the word "end". If you jump around putting a piece of scripture with another piece of scripture you can come up with anything you like. ..which is what is going on here. Come on now, jump back on the train, let's go 'round again. :rolleyes:
 
S

SimpleGardner

Banned
#807
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
#807
PS said:
Abraham was saved by faith prior to the law and we are saved by faith after the law.

The law is null and void, a hiccup in Jewish history.
Click to expand...
I beleive that you believe this.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#808
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#808
Karraster said:
Ahh, but we were in Roman's 10:4...remember? We were "in context" talking about the simple meaning of the word "end". If you jump around putting a piece of scripture with another piece of scripture you can come up with anything you like. ..which is what is going on here. Come on now, jump back on the train, let's go 'round again. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
In Romans chapter 4 the Apostle demonstrated how the law anticipated the coming gospel of justification by faith that was to replace it.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#811
#811
lightbearer said:
No. It is how you see it.
The thing is we don't have to be condemning when sharing HIS Spirit or what we perceive to be from HIS Spirit. The Truth in relation to doctrine should be shared in love. If you share x and I share y in rebuttal that is enough without making pointed comments about one another.
Click to expand...
There is one gospel.

Get it wrong and your doomed for eternity.

Its not how I see it, it is the truth. Whether you like it or not is beside the point, the pharisee did not like it either. And they killed Jesus for it. What are you gonna do?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#812
#812
SimpleGardner said:
The sharp words I am speaking of are not the words of scripture you are quoting, they are your words.

Please consider your words and if you are angry when you are writing, consider whether your anger is dominating your dictation. Let your words be true, but smooth and tempered.
Click to expand...
I am not angry dude. I am just telling it like it is. If you think it is anger, then maybe I am cutting into you. Which is what truth does..

And by the way, are you going to continue to sit here and try to attack my character? Or actual respond to my message? Whats wrong, are you like many who have no words to say against my message so you have to attack the messenger?
 
D

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#813
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#813
SimpleGardner said:
There was a time in all mens lives that the Law was death....When we recognized our guilt under the requirements of the Law we had to choose to rebel or in a Godly Sorrow repent which lead to Christ which gave us standing to approach The Heavenly Father. At that point we had many chouces to make concerning our carnal mind/heart. We could stand under grace and remain carnal or receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit concerning the matters of our heart. If we received the corrections our carnal hearts would begin to transform from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh or a hardened sinful heart to a fleshly soft spiritual thinking heart. These analogies were given to us to visualize Gods work in us as he wrote His laws on our hearts so that they became lovely, a new nature. For those who resist the inner working of the Holy Spirit they remain carnal and Gods Spirit will not suffer with them forever. Hence the analogy of a tree that does not bear fruit.

Think about Pauls words like this. If a man is under the Spirit He is now in harmony with the law rather than under the oppressive burden of the law which he once could not keep.

Gal 5:22-26 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (26) Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Each and every fruit of the Spirit is the fulfillment of the law.
Click to expand...
I just figured out why I love these debates. With every back and forth, the truth is refined, like fermenting wine casts out the impurities, or the dross from the silver when heated by the fire, and the we get to see so many places God backs up His Truth. The lies only have so far to go. It runs out of verses to back it up. You know God gave the truth more space than the lies so you know in the end it isn't a person or point of view that wins it is God and all those who have been a part of finding that perfect truth together. And when we are done, there is no bending from it no matter who comes at us. We can then stand strong and confident we are living Gods Will and not our own.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#814
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#814
PS said:
I do. The law was written after the Babylonian exile to prevent it happening again.
Click to expand...
You seem to be confused about the sequence of events. Or have you bought into the nonsense of the Higher Critics? The Law was given around 1500 BC. The Babylonian exile took place around 600 BC.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#815
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#815
PS said:
The law is null and void, a hiccup in Jewish history.
Click to expand...
Definitely NOT a hiccup in Jewish history. Christ was born under the Law and He also fulfilled the Law and upheld the Law.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#816
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#816
SimpleGardner said:
You sure about that? Check your timeline.
Click to expand...
The Priestly source, one of the four main sources of the Torah/Pentateuch in the Bible, is primarily a product of the post-exilic period when the former Kingdom of Judah had become the Persian province of Yehud. Also during this Persian period, the final redaction of the Pentateuch purportedly took place. This is the Babylonian captivity.

After the fall of Babylon to the Persian king Cyrus the Great in 539 BCE, exiled Judeans were permitted to return to Judah. Notice the dates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

Then came Maimonides who codified the 613 Mitzvot Laws. He died in 1204 AD. Moses was born in 1522 B.C.

During his lifetime, most Jews greeted Maimonides' writings on Jewish law and ethics with acclaim and gratitude, even as far away as Iraq and Yemen. Yet, while Maimonides rose to become the revered head of the Jewish community in Egypt, his writings also had vociferous critics, particularly in Spain. Nonetheless, he was posthumously acknowledged as among the foremost rabbinical decisors and philosophers in Jewish history, and his copious work comprises a cornerstone of Jewish scholarship. His fourteen-volume Mishneh Torah still carries significant canonical authority as a codification of Talmudic law. He is sometimes known as "ha Nesher ha Gadol" (the great eagle) in recognition of his outstanding status as a bona fide exponent of the Oral Torah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
 
S

SimpleGardner

Banned
#817
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
#817
DeighAnn said:
I just figured out why I love these debates. With every back and forth, the truth is refined, like fermenting wine casts out the impurities, or the dross from the silver when heated by the fire, and the we get to see so many places God backs up His Truth. The lies only have so far to go. It runs out of verses to back it up. You know God gave the truth more space than the lies so you know in the end it isn't a person or point of view that wins it is God and all those who have been a part of finding that perfect truth together. And when we are done, there is no bending from it no matter who comes at us. We can then stand strong and confident we are living Gods Will and not our own.
Click to expand...

Thank you for putting words to that. :) Well said!
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#818
#818
PS said:
Abraham was saved by faith prior to the law and we are saved by faith after the law.

The law is null and void, a hiccup in Jewish history.
Click to expand...
The psalmist wrote, "It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law" (Psa. 119:126). Men of all ages have tried, and failed, to nullify the Word of our Creator.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#819
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
13,785
113
#819
PS said:
I do. The law was written after the Babylonian exile to prevent it happening again.
Click to expand...
Well that's a convenient escape hatch. How about providing evidence to support your claim.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#820
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#820
Nehemiah6 said:
Definitely NOT a hiccup in Jewish history. Christ was born under the Law and He also fulfilled the Law and upheld the Law.
Click to expand...
Read Hebrews 11 for the Patriarchs who were saved by faith and not by the law that only condemns.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.