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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,570
9,088
113
#21
The Beginning of Sorrows
Matthew’s account opens with a series of ominous signs:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows [or “birth pangs”].
— Matthew 24:5–8​
Luke’s account contains the ostensibly identical series of signs:

But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
— Luke 21:9–11​
It would seem that these, and many other similarities throughout the respective passages, appear to be a summary of the same teachings by our Lord on the same occasion. (Many scholars note that these specific signs also seem to parallel the same series of signs in the opening of the Seven Seals in Revelation Chapter 6. See graphic.)

Matthew’s account continues, “Then shall” (verses 9, 10, 11, et al.). The bulk of his record deals with events after these “sorrows” or birth pangs. He (as well as Mark) further introduces — and emphasizes — an additional sign that is omitted from Luke’s account:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
— Matthew 24:15​
This proves to be a major verse for a number of reasons. Here Jesus saves us hours of boring library research by authenticating the authorship of Daniel, and his role as a prophet. Jesus also referred to a key historical event: the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes that had occurred two centuries earlier in 167 B.C.

This historical event was well known to every Jew, and the subsequent rededication of the desecrated Temple is still celebrated every year at Hanukkah. (This is even alluded to in John 10:22.)

The “Abomination of Desolation” refers to Antiochus’ establishing an idol to Zeus in the Holy of Holies that precipitated the Macabbean revolt, which ultimately threw off the Seleucid yoke and ushered in the rule of the Hasmoneans. It is referred to four times in Daniel.3

But here, Jesus is indicating that this desecration will happen again and that this time it will usher in a period that Jesus Himself labels “the Great Tribulation” (quoting from Daniel4 and which Jeremiah called “the time of Jacob’s trouble.”5(Both Matthew’s and Mark’s renderings also include the parenthetical admonition to the reader for understanding!)

Luke’s Divergence
Luke’s account focuses on a siege of Jerusalem that is substantially divergent from the Matthew account. It is the presumption that they are both dealing with the same event that is the source of misunderstandings. Everyone seems to overlook what Luke says after mentioning the famed series of signs:

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
— Luke 21:12​
Luke then focuses on a desolation of Jerusalem that precedes the series of signs that earmark both passages! Matthew focuses on a desolation that follows that same series of signs. Luke’s rendering deals with the fall of Jerusalem that occurred 38 years later in 70 A.D. Matthew all but ignores it.

Luke notes that “this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled.”6 It is interesting that Jerusalem fell 38 years later, the very same duration that it took for that earlier generation to expire during the wanderings in the wilderness.7

In contrast, Matthew’s account deals with events that follow that same series of signs, including the Abomination of Desolation announced in Matthew 24:15.

(Some try to suggest that this event happened during the siege of 70 A.D., but that is contrary to the substantial eye witness accounts recorded. A war was going on and no idol was so established, “standing in the Holy Place,” etc. In fact, Titus was frustrated by the fire that broke out in the Temple8 and he later had to command his soldiers to dismantle it “stone by stone” to recover the gold that had melted, etc.9 This, too, was a fulfillment of our Lord’s prophecy.10)

It is important to note the details of the attacks of the Romans in 66–70 A.D. Vespasian and his son, Titus, were sent by Nero to make war with the Jews.11However, the death of Nero delayed the siege, and subsequently Vespasian acceded to the throne of the empire and left his son Titus to complete the siege. Luke’s account had warned his listeners:

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
— Luke 21:20–21​
Over 1,100,000 perished in the siege. Those who heeded Jesus’ warning apparently escaped. Some scholars infer that few, if any, Christians perished in the siege.

By contrast, Matthew’s account conspicuously terminates with the Second Coming of Christ and the cosmic upheavals incident thereto, which are alluded to in both accounts.

When we were in school, learning to diagram sentences was useful in understanding grammar: subject, predicate, adverbial phrases, etc. Here, too, a composite diagram may prove helpful

Matthew’s account, written for the Jews, seems destined to be a survival handbook for those enduring the forthcoming unprecedented time.

Luke’s, on the other hand, written for the Gentiles, seems to totally ignore the Great Tribulation. In fact, it would seem that his readers shouldn’t be concerned:

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
— Luke 21:28​
(The word for “redemption,” apolutrosis, appears nine times in the New Testament, and always is used to refer to the redemption of the Body.)

There are numerous complex issues that still emerge from these several accounts. It isn’t clear that they even occurred at the same time or place.

Matthew and Mark clearly identify a private briefing on the Mount of Olives to the “insider” group of disciples Luke, on the other hand, remarks:

And in the day time he was teaching in the Temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the Mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the Temple, for to hear him.
— Luke 21:36–38​
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#22
In Daniel 11, the AOD, who is part Northern Kingdom, goes through and destroys many Middle Eastern nations.
When the scriptures then speaks to the current residents of Israel: "When you see the AOD, to run", this has to do with the fact that the land of Israel will be one of, if not the last of Middle Eastern nations destroyed by the AOD.
Middle Eastern nations are also referered to as the Southern kingdom in Daniel 11.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#23
Thank you very much. I am going to put that together too. I may just go try and collect them all. Anyway in answer to your question, they don't know it is the abomination of desolation. Satan wants to be worshipped as God. That is what Satan has been wanting from the beginning. His pride blinds him to the fact that that is impossible. Remember Jesus being tempted by him. What did Satan want? What did Satan promise to Jesus if Jesus would only ???
Worship Satan by rejecting himself.

No different when he will be coming here. Take away everything man has told you and read what the bible tells you and what are you left with?
That Jesus didn't suffer in place of sinners, but for sinners.

Lucifer/Satan was a protecting cherub. That means he held the highest of positions, he protected the seat of God.
he was more wise and more beautiful God created him the full pattern. he was perfect UNTIL he himself decided he didn't want to protect THE SEAT OF GOD, he wanted to SIT ON IT and to BE WORSHIPPED. So he went about and stole BY DECEPTION (it had to be deception because nothing he promises is possible, he isn't God, he cant create anything he can only tell lies and convince you it is the truth) 1/3 of Gods sons.
Jesus created the angels.

How does the bible say he will be when he comes back? He will "NOT be coming when you hear of wars and rumors of war" those are the beginnings of sorrows. NO he will be returning when you hear "PEACE and SAFETY"
Of course there's no safety in the protection of the flesh.

The deadly would is fixed. WHO IS LIKE HIM. AND you will watch as he brings peace to the world, so beautiful and so wise and someone who is performing wonders (supernatural) and signs (supernatural) JUST LIKE YOU EXPECT JESUS TO LOOK LIKE AND TO ACT like AND TO BE LIKE AND TO HELP LIKE

THE world will wonder after him. You think the superstars of today are worshipped? nothing compared to WHAT IS COMING. So to take his mark and follow and worship him is the most natural thing to do and everyone in the world is doing it with you, because NO ONE, NOT FOR THE LAST 2 THOUSAND YEARS has seen anyone like this.
Whatever Satan does is just trickery. Failing on a grander scale is still failing.

What is the famine in the end time? For the word of God. NOT the WORDS of God, but for the TRUTH that come from the WORD of GODS.
We're well into that now. The gospel Jesus taught has been distorted.

I am probably already "flooding", so I'll stop. Just think about it. Read it for yourself. You got an eye. Use it.
I have thought about it. When God told Lot to leave Sodom, it wasn't to protect his fleas from dying, because Lot's flesh died later.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#25
It is not strange since Lot's wife experienced God's judgment for hesitating, and those who hesitate when judgments are being sent down will also experience judgment.
Her hesitation came before God's judgment fell.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#26
Sure they do. As much as a person going to pagan worship and idol worship, and people going to eastern mysticism. Ultimately we all know, there is just something inside that tells us.
Many Jews didn't know it. They went to the synagogue every week thinking they were worshipping God, but didn't recognize Jesus when he came. Do you think this couldn't happen to people going to church every Sunday?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#27
The Beginning of Sorrows
Matthew’s account opens with a series of ominous signs:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows [or “birth pangs”].​
— Matthew 24:5–8​
Luke’s account contains the ostensibly identical series of signs:

But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.​
— Luke 21:9–11​
It would seem that these, and many other similarities throughout the respective passages, appear to be a summary of the same teachings by our Lord on the same occasion. (Many scholars note that these specific signs also seem to parallel the same series of signs in the opening of the Seven Seals in Revelation Chapter 6. See graphic.)

Matthew’s account continues, “Then shall” (verses 9, 10, 11, et al.). The bulk of his record deals with events after these “sorrows” or birth pangs. He (as well as Mark) further introduces — and emphasizes — an additional sign that is omitted from Luke’s account:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
— Matthew 24:15​
This proves to be a major verse for a number of reasons. Here Jesus saves us hours of boring library research by authenticating the authorship of Daniel, and his role as a prophet. Jesus also referred to a key historical event: the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes that had occurred two centuries earlier in 167 B.C.

This historical event was well known to every Jew, and the subsequent rededication of the desecrated Temple is still celebrated every year at Hanukkah. (This is even alluded to in John 10:22.)

The “Abomination of Desolation” refers to Antiochus’ establishing an idol to Zeus in the Holy of Holies that precipitated the Macabbean revolt, which ultimately threw off the Seleucid yoke and ushered in the rule of the Hasmoneans. It is referred to four times in Daniel.3

But here, Jesus is indicating that this desecration will happen again and that this time it will usher in a period that Jesus Himself labels “the Great Tribulation” (quoting from Daniel4 and which Jeremiah called “the time of Jacob’s trouble.”5(Both Matthew’s and Mark’s renderings also include the parenthetical admonition to the reader for understanding!)

Luke’s Divergence
Luke’s account focuses on a siege of Jerusalem that is substantially divergent from the Matthew account. It is the presumption that they are both dealing with the same event that is the source of misunderstandings. Everyone seems to overlook what Luke says after mentioning the famed series of signs:

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.​
— Luke 21:12​
Luke then focuses on a desolation of Jerusalem that precedes the series of signs that earmark both passages! Matthew focuses on a desolation that follows that same series of signs. Luke’s rendering deals with the fall of Jerusalem that occurred 38 years later in 70 A.D. Matthew all but ignores it.

Luke notes that “this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled.”6 It is interesting that Jerusalem fell 38 years later, the very same duration that it took for that earlier generation to expire during the wanderings in the wilderness.7

In contrast, Matthew’s account deals with events that follow that same series of signs, including the Abomination of Desolation announced in Matthew 24:15.

(Some try to suggest that this event happened during the siege of 70 A.D., but that is contrary to the substantial eye witness accounts recorded. A war was going on and no idol was so established, “standing in the Holy Place,” etc. In fact, Titus was frustrated by the fire that broke out in the Temple8 and he later had to command his soldiers to dismantle it “stone by stone” to recover the gold that had melted, etc.9 This, too, was a fulfillment of our Lord’s prophecy.10)

It is important to note the details of the attacks of the Romans in 66–70 A.D. Vespasian and his son, Titus, were sent by Nero to make war with the Jews.11However, the death of Nero delayed the siege, and subsequently Vespasian acceded to the throne of the empire and left his son Titus to complete the siege. Luke’s account had warned his listeners:

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.​
— Luke 21:20–21​
Over 1,100,000 perished in the siege. Those who heeded Jesus’ warning apparently escaped. Some scholars infer that few, if any, Christians perished in the siege.

By contrast, Matthew’s account conspicuously terminates with the Second Coming of Christ and the cosmic upheavals incident thereto, which are alluded to in both accounts.

When we were in school, learning to diagram sentences was useful in understanding grammar: subject, predicate, adverbial phrases, etc. Here, too, a composite diagram may prove helpful

Matthew’s account, written for the Jews, seems destined to be a survival handbook for those enduring the forthcoming unprecedented time.

Luke’s, on the other hand, written for the Gentiles, seems to totally ignore the Great Tribulation. In fact, it would seem that his readers shouldn’t be concerned:

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.​
— Luke 21:28​
(The word for “redemption,” apolutrosis, appears nine times in the New Testament, and always is used to refer to the redemption of the Body.)

There are numerous complex issues that still emerge from these several accounts. It isn’t clear that they even occurred at the same time or place.

Matthew and Mark clearly identify a private briefing on the Mount of Olives to the “insider” group of disciples Luke, on the other hand, remarks:

And in the day time he was teaching in the Temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the Mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the Temple, for to hear him.​
— Luke 21:36–38​
I am totally following what you are saying. I had noticed as I was trying to make them one, some of the problems presented when introducing Luke into it. It also makes sense "on another front" though I can't remember what that is right now. I will go back and study it again with these eyes. Pretty important because there is another area that I totally disagreed with you on (can't remember it either- one prayer for peace was life changing for me) so I wasn't even going to read this. So glad I did. Thank you for the insight, I sure hope it turns out to be of a truth. I will let you know.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#29
Many Jews didn't know it. They went to the synagogue every week thinking they were worshipping God, but didn't recognize Jesus when he came. Do you think this couldn't happen to people going to church every Sunday?
How is it they missed it when even the wise men and Herod knew when He was born?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#30
So you think Jesus was speaking symbolically?
Yes I do. It's senseless to say, don't be afraid of war, but then run away from people who will physically harm you.

Please understand, I'm not suggesting believers should walk in front of a train, but there is a time and place where death may come at the hands of the ungodly and those who trust Jesus should have no fear of it.

Jesus faced it head on and defeated it.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#31
Yes I do. It's senseless to say, don't be afraid of war, but then run away from people who will physically harm you.

Please understand, I'm not suggesting believers should walk in front of a train, but there is a time and place where death may come at the hands of the ungodly and those who trust Jesus should have no fear of it.

Jesus faced it head on and defeated it.
So Jesus warning means nothing then? Remember, he is telling Isreal to run, In Fact OT prophets told them God would protect them, if they went where he told them to go. And rev 13 confirms, that the beast will go after her, But God will protect her.

We should not take these things seriously?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#32
Yes I do. It's senseless to say, don't be afraid of war, but then run away from people who will physically harm you.

Please understand, I'm not suggesting believers should walk in front of a train, but there is a time and place where death may come at the hands of the ungodly and those who trust Jesus should have no fear of it.

Jesus faced it head on and defeated it.
I agree. You are obviously a post tribber. Yes, I want a white robe, way more than I want to keep this flesh. The best way I can see to end this flesh life is in the service of our Lord. I don't understand how someone can say they believe Jesus defeated death and then be scared to "continue" to the next phase.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#33
1. I have harmonized those three accounts in the past.

2. There is nothing "out of place".

3. The narrative in Luke is less chronological than in the others.

4. Even in Matthew the chronology needs to be properly understood.
Please read post 21 as see what you think. If it makes sense, do you know what it "also relates to" or "clears up" somewhere else?
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
#34
Please read post 21 as see what you think. If it makes sense, do you know what it "also relates to" or "clears up" somewhere else?
I just can't place it right now
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#35
Many Jews didn't know it. They went to the synagogue every week thinking they were worshipping God, but didn't recognize Jesus when he came. Do you think this couldn't happen to people going to church every Sunday?
I disagree. Most people are not honest with themselves. They deceive themselves because they want to. People are not really vastly different we all play our own deception games, whether it's to justify excuse or deny or divergent it's all the same thing. Sin is what it is, and it's common to all man. The only reason why we came to the truth is because inside of us something changed that caused us to stop deceiving ourselves. Don't engage in deceiving yourself today. You know you were going wrong back in the day when you were living the sin lifestyle, and you know what excuses you gave. Probably the same excuses I gave.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
#36
Please read post 21 as see what you think. If it makes sense, do you know what it "also relates to" or "clears up" somewhere else?
Please read my posts #4 & 5 in this thread: Matthew ch. 24 THE END.

It is a complete analysis of the Olivet Discourse. Therefore Mark and Luke should be harmonized with this.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
#37
Jun 16, 2019
88
17
8
#38
Read 1 John 5:13. We are to know and have assurance. But that assurance has to be grounded in sound doctrine.
We must put our faith in the son of God and we must run quickly away from a doomed Jerusalem and temple if he tells us to do so.
 
Jun 16, 2019
88
17
8
#39
To avoid mistakes we have to take food only from Jesus. This is the sign